ND555 Impressions

No quarter posted:

Michael_B. posted:

Are you not inspired by the stubborn yearning of the ND555 for a Core to try that as well?

I agree,why does nobody use the Core,with a DC1 cable directly into the ND555? Surely this would eliminate Ethernet problems,as it appears to do for me with my lowly N272.Besides that,it is Naim’s own server,new technology and all that.

As I don’t believe there are Ethernet problems, but more a case of cabling circulating currents and earth loops from user setups and wiring, as long as the SPDIF was glavanically isolated at both ends, which I believe is what Naim do, it should work as effectively as unshielded Ethernet cable(all Ethernet links are galvanivally isolated at both ends), effectively SPDIF is the equivalent of single unbalanced serial link, where as 100 BaseT uses two balanced serial links, one for the  send and the receive direction.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Michael posted:

Is it the True Signals Ethernet cable you have been using DB or perhaps a QED one? Signals used the QED one for my home dem which sounded great in isolation. Interesting comparing a more expensive cable to a bog standard cheap one and the differences they bring.

...

...but I would suggest the effects one hears aren’t actually network related but more a side effect of physical connections and coupled RF noise from other sources as well as earth loops, and DB’s post hints at that. Ie the Ethernet itself is irrelevant !... and actually less is more.... sorry bling merchants 

Yes, everything else would make little sense or, indeed, be very disappointing. Still, I find it worrying that swapping a cable has such an effect. Hopefully the Ethernet input of the ND555 is not that sensitive and it turns out that something was particularly bad with the original cable or with DB's physical network.

Ok thanks Simon,good to hear I am not going crazy...you could also add ferrites to the DC1,for an experiment,it jut seems so much simpler to me.I did check the website,and it does have a BNC digital input.

Indeed you could use a ferrite choke to impede circulating common mode RF currents, but if going between Naim devices I’d be surprised if such things were an issue... but you never know....

I tried many permutations of Ethernet cables inc AQ Vodka and direct cables such as DC1, true signal audio and blue jean cable spdif......luckily all on loan. The true signal audio cable was the best for me.....then I got a Cisco 2960 and a standard Melco was then as good as the AQ Vodka and sounded the same as the direct True signal spdif.

The spdif route from Core to Nova or ND555...... means you select and play the album from the Core, not as a server from the streamer. This means you will lose the artwork on the screen, if that is an issue for you.

On the Core, I think the other big benefit is staying in the eco system. With Naim being high end, should work well together functionally, and as a system with Naim amps etc.

Yes,that is what I do Gazza,in the Naim app I choose the Core,not 272...go to albums,select one,and hit play.The only other drawback is that you lose the volume slider bar when using it this way.I prefer using the remote for volume,so no issue here....and no screen.

No quarter posted:

Ok thanks Simon,good to hear I am not going crazy...you could also add ferrites to the DC1,for an experiment,it jut seems so much simpler to me.I did check the website,and it does have a BNC digital input.

Sure, all Naim DACs have SPDIF inputs, the streamers also have Ethernet inputs, of course.

If one plans to use the ND555 as a SPDIF DAC (e.g., fed by a Naim Core) than the most natural terms of comparison would probably be a Naim DAC and a Naim NDS, the latter also connected via SPDIF.

I guess when the ND555 is used as a SPDIF DAC adding a second PSU makes no difference and the comparison would be between ND555+555PS, NDS+555PS and DAC+555PS? 

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Michael posted:

Is it the True Signals Ethernet cable you have been using DB or perhaps a QED one? Signals used the QED one for my home dem which sounded great in isolation. Interesting comparing a more expensive cable to a bog standard cheap one and the differences they bring.

This area intrigues me... as some with a ND555 can hear no effect of the network and cables.. ie when the cable is physically disconnected, the music plays out identically, which I understand was a design objective... Now given how it works with the new streamers, data only flows and handshakes for a period of time and then stops.. and no one is reporting a shift in sq as a track play out or at the end of albums or play lists etc.

Therefore I suspect the effects some might hear with cables etc is not network related at all, but possibly more about circulating common mode currents... otherwise known as earth loops.. or common mode RFI from physical conductive connections.. and that suggests inappropriately shielded Ethernet cables or non optimal / or electrically noisy switches etc, or coupled common mode noise. In such circumstances it might be Wifi yields a better result if you are plagued by things, or at least non shielded cable...but I would suggest the effects one hears aren’t actually network related but more a side effect of physical connections and coupled RF noise from other sources as well as earth loops, and DB’s post hints at that. Ie the Ethernet itself is irrelevant !... and actually less is more.... sorry bling merchants 

Now that really does make sense Simon.

No quarter posted:

Michael_B. posted:

Are you not inspired by the stubborn yearning of the ND555 for a Core to try that as well?

I agree,why does nobody use the Core,with a DC1 cable directly into the ND555? Surely this would eliminate Ethernet problems,as it appears to do for me with my lowly N272.Besides that,it is Naim’s own server,new technology and all that.

I would imagine people wanting to go down that route might be waiting for NDAC2 rather than blowing £20k on a streamer and not streaming. 

You lost me NBPF...why is it not still a streamer?Insread of feeding the music from a NAS,you are feeding it from a Core,they both do the same thing...serve music that you have stored to the streamer (ND555).?

The SPDIF input bypasses the streamer module completely and goes straight into the DSP, so the streamer becomes redundant. 

I never knew that,that is why I asked if I am missing something.But do we know for sure that this is a worse way of doing it?Using the Core,you can try using Ethernet,thus “streaming”...,or BNC,which I still think is streaming.It would be nice if somebody at least gave it a try.Why did Naim design the Core this way then,if Ethernet is a supposed far better method,and to be clear,I prefer the sound from MY Core using BNC over Ethernet.To me,they are all just different digital inputs,or maybe I need to do some reading.

Bert Schurink posted:

The stories above also tell me to be cautious with the Ethernet connection. I have the feeling I have great results with my Vodka Cable between the Melco and the ND555, so will seriously consider in case I would get tempted to go to a Chord Music .....

4K Ethernet cable on a 13k streamer ?

blimey..... 

nbpf posted:

Michael_B. posted:

Are you not inspired by the stubborn yearning of the ND555 for a Core to try that as well?

Why should a ND555 be yearning for a Core? Melcos, Antipodes CX, Innuos Zenith all offer isolated, direct LAN outputs, far better UPnP servers, standard metadata file formats, better interoperability ... 

That was an attempt at humour: DB reported that the ND555 occasionally looks for a Core.... from which if nothing else (and more seriously) it looks as if the ND555 was designed to work with the Core. There might even be some synergy between the two.

ChrisSU posted:

The SPDIF input bypasses the streamer module completely and goes straight into the DSP, so the streamer becomes redundant. 

Surely that doesn't preclude also streaming from the Internet via Ethernet as an alternative input?

No quarter posted:

You lost me NBPF...why is it not still a streamer?Insread of feeding the music from a NAS,you are feeding it from a Core,they both do the same thing...serve music that you have stored to the streamer (ND555).?

It does not really matter whether the ND555 is called a streamer, a network player or something else. What matters is that, as documented in https://www.naimaudio.com/site...Paper%20Final_0.pdf, the ND555 entails, among others, a DAC board and a digital board, see Figure 1 in the above white paper.

The digital board provides two inputs to the DAC board: ethernet (wired and wireless) and S/PDIF. This was also the case for the NDS whereas the old Naim  DAC only comes with S/PDIF inputs. As an aside, the ND555's digital board also provides a S/PDIF output. Thus, the ND555 can also be connected to an external DAC. Hence it indeed is, among others, a network player!

Now the Core is both a UPnP server and a S/PDIF player. As a S/PDIF player, it can be directly connected to the ND555's S/PDIF input (or to the S/PDIF inputs of a Naim DAC or of a NDS). As a UPnP server, it can provide files to the ethernet inputs of the ND555, again via cable or wireless. In contrast to similar devices by Melco, Antipodes, etc., however, the Core does not come with a second RJ45 port for direct, isolated connection to devices like the ND555. This means that you will need a good switch (and its PSU) if you decide to use the Core (or, in fact, any NAS or other computer) as a UPnP server for the ND555. This fact together with other limitations of the Core's UPnP server makes it a less interesting proposition as a UPnP server, in my view. It is an interesting S/PDIF player, however. But then, as CHRISSU points out above, one probably would not buy a ND555 only to feed it via S/PDIF. Although I think that it would be interesting to know how it compares to the old Naim DAC: the whitepaper suggests that the coupling between the DAC board and the S/PDIF inputs has been improved. The question is, of course, by how much.

Anyway, I think that the ND555 (and the upcoming NDX2) are very interesting devices. I would have much preferred to see Naim offering both the ND55 and the NDX2 in versions with and without screen and with the streaming board as an optional add-on, but still they are interesting devices.  

No quarter posted:

I never knew that, that is why I asked if I am missing something. But do we know for sure that this is a worse way of doing it?

...

We do not know of course and your question is absolutely at place! On the other hand, if I planned not to use the streaming section of a streamer I would probably not buy a streamer in the first place. What I actually would like to see is more manufacturers offering DACs with optional and upgreadable boards. For inputs like ethernet, USB, S/PDIF, etc. but also for DAC sections. Anyway, hopefully we will soon have a better picture of what the ND555 and the NDX2 bring to the table. I think that meaningful comparisons would be at least

- ND555 (NDX2) vs. NDS, both directly connected via cable to the same server with dedicated ethernet output or to the same switch.

- ND555 (NDX2) vs. DAC, both directly connected to the same S/PDIF source.

For current and perspective users of Naim streamers it might also be interesting to keep in mind that both UpTone Audio and Sonore are about to come out with new network switches which are meant to improve over the Cisco, SoTM, etc. switches, see various threads in the CA forums.

nbpf posted:

...What I actually would like to see is more manufacturers offering DACs with optional and upgreadable boards. For inputs like ethernet, USB, S/PDIF, etc. but also for DAC sections...

 

This is probably unlikely. For one, because to get the best performance you need to design as a whole. For two, because it opens the devices and boards up to risk of electrostatic damage.  Certainly it would not be a user upgradeable feature - factory or (qualified) dealer only - imagine the warranty implications!

And imagine offering a streamer without a streamer board, or where it's only optional...

Richard Dane posted:

nbpf posted:

...What I actually would like to see is more manufacturers offering DACs with optional and upgreadable boards. For inputs like ethernet, USB, S/PDIF, etc. but also for DAC sections...

 

This is probably unlikely. For one, because to get the best performance you need to design as a whole. For two, because it opens the devices and boards up to risk of electrostatic damage.  Certainly it would not be a user upgradeable feature - factory or (qualified) dealer only - imagine the warranty implications

Sure, modularity does not imply that upgrades can be made by users! But Naim has already started to offer servers in which the drives can be upgraded by users and certain components could in principle become sealed and user upgradeable in the future. We will see, there are a few companies that already offer some degree of modularity, Accuphase and Schiit for example.

Richard Dane posted:

nbpf posted:

...What I actually would like to see is more manufacturers offering DACs with optional and upgreadable boards. For inputs like ethernet, USB, S/PDIF, etc. but also for DAC sections...

 

...

And imagine offering a streamer without a streamer board, or where it's only optional...

I do not actually see any problem: it would be called a DAC and users would be able to order it with USB inputs, S/PDIF inputs, ethernet inputs, I2S inputs ... according to their needs and budgets. It certainly would make a product more future-proof and, to me, more attractive.

No quarter posted:

I never knew that,that is why I asked if I am missing something.But do we know for sure that this is a worse way of doing it?Using the Core,you can try using Ethernet,thus “streaming”...,or BNC,which I still think is streaming.It would be nice if somebody at least gave it a try.Why did Naim design the Core this way then,if Ethernet is a supposed far better method,and to be clear,I prefer the sound from MY Core using BNC over Ethernet.To me,they are all just different digital inputs,or maybe I need to do some reading.

You could argue that this is all just semantics. If playing from a hard drive via SPDIF into a DAC is streaming, maybe doing the same with a CD player is too! In Naim parlance, the Core is a server, not a streamer. On the other hand, Innuos servers have web streaming functionality built in so they can feed your DAC from Tidal, Qobuz, and (like the previous Naim servers) iRadio. Maybe Naim will add these facilities to their servers too, but at the moment they seem to be heading in the opposite direction. 

anymore ND555 'impressions'? please... 

enjoy

ken

ken c posted:

anymore ND555 'impressions'? please... 

enjoy

ken

I am afraid that the number of ND555 owners is still a bit limited and many of them might be actually enjoying the music rather than taking apart their new toys! But I am sure that we will have more and more reports from demos and hopefully also some detailed reviews very soon. In a couple of weeks we might also be able to read the first reports from NDX2 owners. But ... feel free to pay a visit to your Naim dealer and ... post your findings! We are all eager to know more impressions about these beasts!   

Well, I finally weakened this morning, and placed a call to my friendly Naim dealer ............. just to see, you understand .................

................ it can't possibly be that much better than my obsolete and very obviously "broken" NDS, can it?

Oh dear  ................................ to be concluded.