ND555 Impressions

ChrisSU posted:

No quarter posted:

I never knew that,that is why I asked if I am missing something.But do we know for sure that this is a worse way of doing it?Using the Core,you can try using Ethernet,thus “streaming”...,or BNC,which I still think is streaming.It would be nice if somebody at least gave it a try.Why did Naim design the Core this way then,if Ethernet is a supposed far better method,and to be clear,I prefer the sound from MY Core using BNC over Ethernet.To me,they are all just different digital inputs,or maybe I need to do some reading.

You could argue that this is all just semantics. If playing from a hard drive via SPDIF into a DAC is streaming, maybe doing the same with a CD player is too! In Naim parlance, the Core is a server, not a streamer. On the other hand, Innuos servers have web streaming functionality built in so they can feed your DAC from Tidal, Qobuz, and (like the previous Naim servers) iRadio. Maybe Naim will add these facilities to their servers too, but at the moment they seem to be heading in the opposite direction. 

Sorry for the sidetrack everyone,but I have one or two more questions.Chris,what exactly is it called when I send music stored on my Core to my 272 ,Rendering?

I want to make sure I use the correct terms in the future.

Does what I am doing switch to “streaming” when I use Ethernet and pull the music from the Core,and not push it to the 272 using BNC?

Why on earth would Naim design/make a new product (Core) that is NOT the best possible way to store/rip,and then send music stored on it to their new products (Unitis,and now ND555).

In order to demo their latest new product (ND 555) at its best,they have to use another companies server ? (Melco,Innuous,Antipodes),or a Qnap/Synology NAS.

I feel kind of ripped off,when I bought the Core,I was under the impression it was the best route to get the best sound out of all my stored/ripped CDs and Downloads.

Rant over. 

No quarter posted:

ChrisSU posted:

No quarter posted:

I never knew that,that is why I asked if I am missing something.But do we know for sure that this is a worse way of doing it?Using the Core,you can try using Ethernet,thus “streaming”...,or BNC,which I still think is streaming.It would be nice if somebody at least gave it a try.Why did Naim design the Core this way then,if Ethernet is a supposed far better method,and to be clear,I prefer the sound from MY Core using BNC over Ethernet.To me,they are all just different digital inputs,or maybe I need to do some reading.

You could argue that this is all just semantics. If playing from a hard drive via SPDIF into a DAC is streaming, maybe doing the same with a CD player is too! In Naim parlance, the Core is a server, not a streamer. On the other hand, Innuos servers have web streaming functionality built in so they can feed your DAC from Tidal, Qobuz, and (like the previous Naim servers) iRadio. Maybe Naim will add these facilities to their servers too, but at the moment they seem to be heading in the opposite direction. 

Sorry for the sidetrack everyone,but I have one or two more questions.Chris,what exactly is it called when I send music stored on my Core to my 272 ,Rendering?

I want to make sure I use the correct terms in the future.

Does what I am doing switch to “streaming” when I use Ethernet and pull the music from the Core,and not push it to the 272 using BNC?

Why on earth would Naim design/make a new product (Core) that is NOT the best possible way to store/rip,and then send music stored on it to their new products (Unitis,and now ND555).

In order to demo their latest new product (ND 555) at its best,they have to use another companies server ? (Melco,Innuous,Antipodes),or a Qnap/Synology NAS.

I feel kind of ripped off,when I bought the Core,I was under the impression it was the best route to get the best sound out of all my stored/ripped CDs and Downloads.

Rant over. 

As far as Naim are concerned, streaming means sending music files over a network from a UPnP server to a streamer. That may be a Core, a Synology NAS, or whatever. Lots of other brands offer UPnP streamers too: Linn, Yamaha, etc. etc. If anyone prefers to bypass the network and the streamer in their system by using SPDIF instead, Naim streamers allow this by offering such an input into the built in DAC that all of their streamers have. This begs the question, why have a streamer/DAC when you could just use a separate DAC, and get more for your money. But as I said, if you want web streaming services too, you still need a streamer. Perhaps having so many options creates a bit of confusion, but to my mind, it’s nice to have the choice. 

nbpf posted:

ken c posted:

anymore ND555 'impressions'? please... 

enjoy

ken

I am afraid that the number of ND555 owners is still a bit limited and many of them might be actually enjoying the music rather than taking apart their new toys! But I am sure that we will have more and more reports from demos and hopefully also some detailed reviews very soon. In a couple of weeks we might also be able to read the first reports from NDX2 owners. But ... feel free to pay a visit to your Naim dealer and ... post your findings! We are all eager to know more impressions about these beasts!   

I'm afraid I can't...

enjoy

ken

dave marshall posted:

Well, I finally weakened this morning, and placed a call to my friendly Naim dealer ............. just to see, you understand .................

................ it can't possibly be that much better than my obsolete and very obviously "broken" NDS, can it?

Oh dear  ................................ to be concluded.

well done dave -- looking fwd to your impressions when you get it into your system...

enjoy

/ken

No quarter posted:

ChrisSU posted:

No quarter posted:

I never knew that,that is why I asked if I am missing something.But do we know for sure that this is a worse way of doing it?Using the Core,you can try using Ethernet,thus “streaming”...,or BNC,which I still think is streaming.It would be nice if somebody at least gave it a try.Why did Naim design the Core this way then,if Ethernet is a supposed far better method,and to be clear,I prefer the sound from MY Core using BNC over Ethernet.To me,they are all just different digital inputs,or maybe I need to do some reading.

You could argue that this is all just semantics. If playing from a hard drive via SPDIF into a DAC is streaming, maybe doing the same with a CD player is too! In Naim parlance, the Core is a server, not a streamer. On the other hand, Innuos servers have web streaming functionality built in so they can feed your DAC from Tidal, Qobuz, and (like the previous Naim servers) iRadio. Maybe Naim will add these facilities to their servers too, but at the moment they seem to be heading in the opposite direction. 

Sorry for the sidetrack everyone, but I have one or two more questions.Chris,what exactly is it called when I send music stored on my Core to my 272 ,Rendering?

...

If you connect the Core to the 272 via S/PDIF you are converting digital data in one format (FLAC, WAV, etc.) into digital data in another formal (a S/PDIF stream). In this case, the device is acting as a transport. It would be the same as if you would connect a CD player to the 272. You would bypass the CD player's internal DAC and use it as a transport or digital-to-digital convertor.

If you use the Core as a UPnP server it acts ... as a UPnP server. It just makes certain files (stored in a Core's drive or in some storage accessible to the Core over the network) available on the network. You then use a control point like the Naim app to tell the 272 which files to pull from the Core. In this use-case, the 272 acts as a renderer. If it was connected to an external DAC (assuming the 272 has a S/PDIF output like the ND555, which I do not know if it is the case), the 272 would also act as a transport: it would just convert digital data to digital data in another format.

In short: a DAC can be equipped with S/PDIF inputs, USB inputs, I2S inputs, ethernet inputs, etc. Naim DACs which have an ethernet input are called streamers by Naim. They are typically not transports because they converts digital data to analogue data. But, as long as they have digital outputs, they can also be used as transports in much the same way as a CD player with digital output can be used as a transport. DACless devices with ethernet inputs like the Sonore ultraRendu, the SoTM sMS-200ultra, etc. are often called network players. They are transports.

ken c posted:

dave marshall posted:

Well, I finally weakened this morning, and placed a call to my friendly Naim dealer ............. just to see, you understand .................

................ it can't possibly be that much better than my obsolete and very obviously "broken" NDS, can it?

Oh dear  ................................ to be concluded.

well done dave -- looking fwd to your impressions when you get it into your system...

enjoy

/ken

Early days yet, Ken, the plan is to tip-toe around the subject until we reach a mutually happy outcome, regarding my NDS, and possibly my HDX being swapped out for a Core, at the same time.

In the past, my dealer has managed to make it fairly painless to arrive at a decision, usually coming up with a "make him an offer he can't refuse" scenario ............. he's on holiday at the mo' so, fingers crossed over the next couple of weeks.

From what I've read here so far, the ND555 easily surpasses my "broken" NDS, and I'm sure I'm going to lurve it, once I have it here on demo ................ it's just that I want to sort out the ins and outs of the deal before dragging the guys all the way across from Chester to North Yorks. 

Sometimes, the fun just never stops. 

No quarter posted:

ChrisSU posted:

No quarter posted:

I never knew that,that is why I asked if I am missing something.But do we know for sure that this is a worse way of doing it?Using the Core,you can try using Ethernet,thus “streaming”...,or BNC,which I still think is streaming.It would be nice if somebody at least gave it a try.Why did Naim design the Core this way then,if Ethernet is a supposed far better method,and to be clear,I prefer the sound from MY Core using BNC over Ethernet.To me,they are all just different digital inputs,or maybe I need to do some reading.

You could argue that this is all just semantics. If playing from a hard drive via SPDIF into a DAC is streaming, maybe doing the same with a CD player is too! In Naim parlance, the Core is a server, not a streamer. On the other hand, Innuos servers have web streaming functionality built in so they can feed your DAC from Tidal, Qobuz, and (like the previous Naim servers) iRadio. Maybe Naim will add these facilities to their servers too, but at the moment they seem to be heading in the opposite direction.

Does what I am doing switch to “streaming” when I use Ethernet and pull the music from the Core,and not push it to the 272 using BNC?

...

Yes, pulling data from a UPnP server by controlling a UPnP renderer through an application that typically runs on mobile devices is usually referred to as streaming.

No quarter posted:

ChrisSU posted:

No quarter posted:

I never knew that,that is why I asked if I am missing something.But do we know for sure that this is a worse way of doing it?Using the Core,you can try using Ethernet,thus “streaming”...,or BNC,which I still think is streaming.It would be nice if somebody at least gave it a try.Why did Naim design the Core this way then,if Ethernet is a supposed far better method,and to be clear,I prefer the sound from MY Core using BNC over Ethernet.To me,they are all just different digital inputs,or maybe I need to do some reading.

You could argue that this is all just semantics. If playing from a hard drive via SPDIF into a DAC is streaming, maybe doing the same with a CD player is too! In Naim parlance, the Core is a server, not a streamer. On the other hand, Innuos servers have web streaming functionality built in so they can feed your DAC from Tidal, Qobuz, and (like the previous Naim servers) iRadio. Maybe Naim will add these facilities to their servers too, but at the moment they seem to be heading in the opposite direction. 

Sorry for the sidetrack everyone,but I have one or two more questions.Chris,what exactly is it called when I send music stored on my Core to my 272 ,Rendering?

I want to make sure I use the correct terms in the future.

Does what I am doing switch to “streaming” when I use Ethernet and pull the music from the Core,and not push it to the 272 using BNC?

Why on earth would Naim design/make a new product (Core) that is NOT the best possible way to store/rip,and then send music stored on it to their new products (Unitis,and now ND555).

In order to demo their latest new product (ND 555) at its best,they have to use another companies server ? (Melco,Innuous,Antipodes),or a Qnap/Synology NAS.

I feel kind of ripped off,when I bought the Core,I was under the impression it was the best route to get the best sound out of all my stored/ripped CDs and Downloads.

Rant over. 

I do believe that Naim use Core as the server when they demo ND555. But when a dealer mounts the demo, if they insist to use Melco or whatever, Naim may give in and let them. But I heard of one dealer who wanted to use Melco to demo ND555 but Naim insisted on them using Core. So they did.

best

David

dave marshall posted:

Well, I finally weakened this morning, and placed a call to my friendly Naim dealer ............. just to see, you understand .................

................ it can't possibly be that much better than my obsolete and very obviously "broken" NDS, can it?

I guess it can but let us know and ... have fun!

They used the Core at the Signals demo, even though a Melco was available. I guess from a demo point of view it’s well known to Jason and Mike from Naim. They were very particular about setting up and they must have reassembled the Fraim, as they wanted, and did cut holes in the carpet for better floor contact. An eye for detail, those lads.

You (NQ) are assuming that there is a single 'best'. As you should have gathered from numerous posts, scattered across the streaming sub-forum  there is more than one way to achieve what individuals perceive to be 'best' (for them). I admire the rigour with which some are choosing to analyse the various options and welcome the diversity of 'best' solutions.

nbpf posted:

No quarter posted:

ChrisSU posted:

No quarter posted:

I never knew that,that is why I asked if I am missing something.But do we know for sure that this is a worse way of doing it?Using the Core,you can try using Ethernet,thus “streaming”...,or BNC,which I still think is streaming.It would be nice if somebody at least gave it a try.Why did Naim design the Core this way then,if Ethernet is a supposed far better method,and to be clear,I prefer the sound from MY Core using BNC over Ethernet.To me,they are all just different digital inputs,or maybe I need to do some reading.

You could argue that this is all just semantics. If playing from a hard drive via SPDIF into a DAC is streaming, maybe doing the same with a CD player is too! In Naim parlance, the Core is a server, not a streamer. On the other hand, Innuos servers have web streaming functionality built in so they can feed your DAC from Tidal, Qobuz, and (like the previous Naim servers) iRadio. Maybe Naim will add these facilities to their servers too, but at the moment they seem to be heading in the opposite direction. 

Sorry for the sidetrack everyone, but I have one or two more questions.Chris,what exactly is it called when I send music stored on my Core to my 272 ,Rendering?

...

If you connect the Core to the 272 via S/PDIF you are converting digital data in one format (FLAC, WAV, etc.) into digital data in another formal (a S/PDIF stream). In this case, the device is acting as a transport. It would be the same as if you would connect a CD player to the 272. You would bypass the CD player's internal DAC and use it as a transport or digital-to-digital convertor.

If you use the Core as a UPnP server it acts ... as a UPnP server. It just makes certain files (stored in a Core's drive or in some storage accessible to the Core over the network) available on the network. You then use a control point like the Naim app to tell the 272 which files to pull from the Core. In this use-case, the 272 acts as a renderer. If it was connected to an external DAC (assuming the 272 has a S/PDIF output like the ND555, which I do not know if it is the case), the 272 would also act as a transport: it would just convert digital data to digital data in another format.

In short: a DAC can be equipped with S/PDIF inputs, USB inputs, I2S inputs, ethernet inputs, etc. Naim DACs which have an ethernet input are called streamers by Naim. They are typically not transports because they converts digital data to analogue data. But, as long as they have digital outputs, they can also be used as transports in much the same way as a CD player with digital output can be used as a transport. DACless devices with ethernet inputs like the Sonore ultraRendu, the SoTM sMS-200ultra, etc. are often called network players. They are transports.

A very helpful explanation, nbpf. The multiple use of terms on this topic has often confused me. Thank you.

Yes thanks for clarifying NBPF,by the way,the 272 does have a digital(BNC) out.

ken c posted:

anymore ND555 'impressions'? please... 

enjoy

ken

Yeah I like hearing people impression of ND555. I was hoping someone would put a list of improvements in SQ over NDS. 

No quarter posted:

Michael_B. posted:

Are you not inspired by the stubborn yearning of the ND555 for a Core to try that as well?

I agree,why does nobody use the Core,with a DC1 cable directly into the ND555? Surely this would eliminate Ethernet problems,as it appears to do for me with my lowly N272.Besides that,it is Naim’s own server,new technology and all that.

The Core's rather closed ecosystem, while perhaps good for a novice / hard-drive-based-music "newbie," quickly frustrates many people.  The software packages available from Asset and Minimserver are much preferred by some of us due to their flexibility.  And the fact that they are happy to live on a $300 nas and at least to my ears sounded no worse (nor better) than the Core's predecessor, the UnitiServe, when used as a UPnP server.  (And when used with a DC1 cable direct connection, its ecosystem limits are all still there.)

The ND555 product specifications in https://www.naimaudio.com/site...0Paper%20Final_0.pdf report, among others:

...

UPnP Server | Yes local USB content

...

How is this to be interpreted? Does it mean that the ND555 runs a UPnP server on the contents of USB drives? Which server? This would be an interesting novelty because, to the best of my knowledge, Naim streamers can so far replay files from a local USB drive but they do not make these files available to control applications and to networked renderers via a UPnP server.

My impression of the ND555 so far is that it’s very quiet, however, once the ps comes back from surgery at Naim I have a Core sat in the brawn stack waiting to feed it every way it can. I’m hoping the network wins or its a draw as I don’t want to have to leave it there.

musicfan51 posted:

ken c posted:

anymore ND555 'impressions'? please... 

enjoy

ken

Yeah I like hearing people impression of ND555. I was hoping someone would put a list of improvements in SQ over NDS. 

understood musicfan51...

enjoy

ken

No quarter posted:

ChrisSU posted:

No quarter posted:

I never knew that,that is why I asked if I am missing something.But do we know for sure that this is a worse way of doing it?Using the Core,you can try using Ethernet,thus “streaming”...,or BNC,which I still think is streaming.It would be nice if somebody at least gave it a try.Why did Naim design the Core this way then,if Ethernet is a supposed far better method,and to be clear,I prefer the sound from MY Core using BNC over Ethernet.To me,they are all just different digital inputs,or maybe I need to do some reading.

You could argue that this is all just semantics. If playing from a hard drive via SPDIF into a DAC is streaming, maybe doing the same with a CD player is too! In Naim parlance, the Core is a server, not a streamer. On the other hand, Innuos servers have web streaming functionality built in so they can feed your DAC from Tidal, Qobuz, and (like the previous Naim servers) iRadio. Maybe Naim will add these facilities to their servers too, but at the moment they seem to be heading in the opposite direction. 

Sorry for the sidetrack everyone,but I have one or two more questions.Chris,what exactly is it called when I send music stored on my Core to my 272 ,Rendering?

I want to make sure I use the correct terms in the future.

Does what I am doing switch to “streaming” when I use Ethernet and pull the music from the Core,and not push it to the 272 using BNC?

Why on earth would Naim design/make a new product (Core) that is NOT the best possible way to store/rip,and then send music stored on it to their new products (Unitis,and now ND555).

In order to demo their latest new product (ND 555) at its best,they have to use another companies server ? (Melco,Innuous,Antipodes),or a Qnap/Synology NAS.

I feel kind of ripped off,when I bought the Core,I was under the impression it was the best route to get the best sound out of all my stored/ripped CDs and Downloads.

Rant over. 

If I buy the ND555 I am going to use the Naim UnitiCore for my main source . 

ken c posted:

nbpf posted:

ken c posted:

anymore ND555 'impressions'? please... 

enjoy

ken

I am afraid that the number of ND555 owners is still a bit limited and many of them might be actually enjoying the music rather than taking apart their new toys! But I am sure that we will have more and more reports from demos and hopefully also some detailed reviews very soon. In a couple of weeks we might also be able to read the first reports from NDX2 owners. But ... feel free to pay a visit to your Naim dealer and ... post your findings! We are all eager to know more impressions about these beasts!   

I'm afraid I can't...

enjoy

ken

My Naim dealer does not have a ND555 demo to listen to. So not a solution for everyone ! 

yeti42 posted:

My impression of the ND555 so far is that it’s very quiet, however, once the ps comes back from surgery at Naim I have a Core sat in the brawn stack waiting to feed it every way it can. I’m hoping the network wins or its a draw as I don’t want to have to leave it there.

Agreed; moving a server that contains moving parts (a spinning HDD) far away from the hi fi rack and listening room is ideal.  That's one feature of networked streaming that I've come to embrace, totally!

musicfan51 posted:

No quarter posted:

ChrisSU posted:

No quarter posted:

I never knew that,that is why I asked if I am missing something.But do we know for sure that this is a worse way of doing it?Using the Core,you can try using Ethernet,thus “streaming”...,or BNC,which I still think is streaming.It would be nice if somebody at least gave it a try.Why did Naim design the Core this way then,if Ethernet is a supposed far better method,and to be clear,I prefer the sound from MY Core using BNC over Ethernet.To me,they are all just different digital inputs,or maybe I need to do some reading.

You could argue that this is all just semantics. If playing from a hard drive via SPDIF into a DAC is streaming, maybe doing the same with a CD player is too! In Naim parlance, the Core is a server, not a streamer. On the other hand, Innuos servers have web streaming functionality built in so they can feed your DAC from Tidal, Qobuz, and (like the previous Naim servers) iRadio. Maybe Naim will add these facilities to their servers too, but at the moment they seem to be heading in the opposite direction. 

Sorry for the sidetrack everyone,but I have one or two more questions.Chris,what exactly is it called when I send music stored on my Core to my 272 ,Rendering?

I want to make sure I use the correct terms in the future.

Does what I am doing switch to “streaming” when I use Ethernet and pull the music from the Core,and not push it to the 272 using BNC?

Why on earth would Naim design/make a new product (Core) that is NOT the best possible way to store/rip,and then send music stored on it to their new products (Unitis,and now ND555).

In order to demo their latest new product (ND 555) at its best,they have to use another companies server ? (Melco,Innuous,Antipodes),or a Qnap/Synology NAS.

I feel kind of ripped off,when I bought the Core,I was under the impression it was the best route to get the best sound out of all my stored/ripped CDs and Downloads.

Rant over. 

If I buy the ND555 I am going to use the Naim UnitiCore for my main source . 

Same for me

musicfan51 posted:

No quarter posted:

ChrisSU posted:

No quarter posted:

I never knew that,that is why I asked if I am missing something.But do we know for sure that this is a worse way of doing it?Using the Core,you can try using Ethernet,thus “streaming”...,or BNC,which I still think is streaming.It would be nice if somebody at least gave it a try.Why did Naim design the Core this way then,if Ethernet is a supposed far better method,and to be clear,I prefer the sound from MY Core using BNC over Ethernet.To me,they are all just different digital inputs,or maybe I need to do some reading.

You could argue that this is all just semantics. If playing from a hard drive via SPDIF into a DAC is streaming, maybe doing the same with a CD player is too! In Naim parlance, the Core is a server, not a streamer. On the other hand, Innuos servers have web streaming functionality built in so they can feed your DAC from Tidal, Qobuz, and (like the previous Naim servers) iRadio. Maybe Naim will add these facilities to their servers too, but at the moment they seem to be heading in the opposite direction. 

Sorry for the sidetrack everyone,but I have one or two more questions.Chris,what exactly is it called when I send music stored on my Core to my 272 ,Rendering?

I want to make sure I use the correct terms in the future.

Does what I am doing switch to “streaming” when I use Ethernet and pull the music from the Core,and not push it to the 272 using BNC?

Why on earth would Naim design/make a new product (Core) that is NOT the best possible way to store/rip,and then send music stored on it to their new products (Unitis,and now ND555).

In order to demo their latest new product (ND 555) at its best,they have to use another companies server ? (Melco,Innuous,Antipodes),or a Qnap/Synology NAS.

I feel kind of ripped off,when I bought the Core,I was under the impression it was the best route to get the best sound out of all my stored/ripped CDs and Downloads.

Rant over. 

If I buy the ND555 I am going to use the Naim UnitiCore for my main source . 

Which begs two questions: 1) are you going to buy a ND555? and 2) are you going to use the UnitiCore as a S/PDIF player for your ND555 or as a UPnP server?

musicfan51 posted:

ken c posted:

anymore ND555 'impressions'? please... 

enjoy

ken

Yeah I like hearing people impression of ND555. I was hoping someone would put a list of improvements in SQ over NDS. 

It seems to me that the improvements over the NDS have been well documented in this thread. What are you actually missing?  The ND555 brings incremental improvements in the DAC and clocking board, the streaming platform of the new Uniti range, even more attention to power supply, better subsytem isolation ... the impacts on SQ have been discussed by the OP and by many happy ND555 owners!

nbpf posted:

The ND555 product specifications in https://www.naimaudio.com/site...0Paper%20Final_0.pdf report, among others:

...

UPnP Server | Yes local USB content

...

How is this to be interpreted? Does it mean that the ND555 runs a UPnP server on the contents of USB drives? Which server? This would be an interesting novelty because, to the best of my knowledge, Naim streamers can so far replay files from a local USB drive but they do not make these files available to control applications and to networked renderers via a UPnP server.

I guess you look at what Nova does and that is the functionality of the new platform...

best

David