ND555 Impressions

Yes.

Building on all I learned on my last home demo helped. The ND555 likes to be on for a full day to really warm-up and open-out I found.

Prefer the Twonky Server option over the Minim Server in termes of better clarity and dynamics.

All small but rather obvious differences. Had a friend over to also listen and compare impressions - he is running a 272 streaming Active system and uses Minim and heard the Minim as 'glassy' in my system and preferred the Twonky. May be system dependent.

Music is flowing nicely right now.

DB.

With the present config (NDS 2x555PS - Melco via cheap Ethernet) there is a beautiful full-bodied detailed sound with subterranean bass clarity of note harmonic structures as they weave and the timing is superb throughout, but low bass is really impressive. Rest of system is Statement S1 - Active 3x500DR - Ovator S800.

This is being evoked via the Naim App accessing the Twonky Server on the Melco.

Also tried 'beaming' directly via the Twonky Server interface at the ND555 and that is a far clearer sound in every respect, but it has issues with only allowing a track at a time and inserting a 1s burst of noise at the end of every track. When you try to queue them via a playlist you lose the 'one track beaming' clarity. Bo idea what is going on or why how you invoke the music stream has any difference.

All methods of play-management sound great but there is a definite hierarchy of quality in the playback I'm getting.

...I was not sure if I dared mention any of this as I'll probably be given chapter and verse why it is impossible - but it is there.

DB.

There is a quality in the bass timing and rendering of presence information that is amazing and I've never heard done before. The whole performance opens-out top to bottom and front to back and the performance envelops you.

I've been listening for about a day in different modes - attentive - laid-back - laid-out and it has 'worked' so far in each phase I've had my mind in. You need to let it settle and form an opinion over a longer time as what can sound impressive with alert attentive listening can sometimes leave you cold when you just what to chill-out and let it come to you in a more laid-back subliminal way.

So far the longer I've had it playing the more it grows on me.

DB.

Darke Bear posted:

 

... Also tried 'beaming' directly via the Twonky Server interface at the ND555 and that is a far clearer sound in every respect, but it has issues with only allowing a track at a time and inserting a 1s burst of noise at the end of every track. When you try to queue them via a playlist you lose the 'one track beaming' clarity. Bo idea what is going on or why how you invoke the music stream has any difference.

All methods of play-management sound great but there is a definite hierarchy of quality in the playback I'm getting.

...I was not sure if I dared mention any of this as I'll probably be given chapter and verse why it is impossible - but it is there.

DB.

Hi DB,
You clearly need to consult a qualified electronics engineer as digital is just ones and zeros.  Oh, hang on a minute...

Delighted that you are enjoying it.  Do keep us all posted on progress.

Best regards, FT

Great info DB keep it rolling in ......

I reckon a can of Pledge and a duster on those unused shelves will make everything sound better.

Darke Bear posted:

Also tried 'beaming' directly via the Twonky Server interface at the ND555 and that is a far clearer sound in every respect, but it has issues with only allowing a track at a time and inserting a 1s burst of noise at the end of every track. When you try to queue them via a playlist you lose the 'one track beaming' clarity. Bo idea what is going on or why how you invoke the music stream has any difference.

 

This is interesting and potentially makes sense given how the ND555 works.. although Naim have tried very hard to mitigate this. I suspect Trevor/his successor might be interested. If I had a ND555 at home right now i’d Wireshark it to conform my theory.... but obviously Naim can do this. (It might be a network spool decoupling matter).

i suspect if you had two ND555s, with SPDIF out of one fed into the SPDIF in of another this effect would disappear or be massively reduced.

dave marshall posted:

Harry posted:

Dave. I didn't realise you have the HDX.  When ours failed (feeding NDS/555PS)  I got Minimserver up and running on a the QNAP as a temporary measure to keep the music flowing. I was not prepared to the change in sound quality. There are many things I can't hear a difference between. This was not one of them. Your results may vary. When our HDX was repaired we sold it.

Yes, Minimserver is functioning fine on my Qnap, other than the issue with cover art, but I haven't had the chance for a serious listen / comparison with the HDX being used as my server, having only installed it yesterday.

I guess the big decision will be whether to continue with the NAS, or replace the HDX with a Core .................. I know that's an expensive solution, but I do value the present simplicity of ripping which the HDX provides.

That will have to wait for later, though, until after the ND555 has been pressed into service, .................... and paid for! 

I have a similar setup with HDX as server to my NDS. Comparing tracks direct from the QNAP using Minimserver with those using the HDX as server I found very little difference and marginally preferred the HDX route. 

Starting from scratch I probably wouldn’t go to the expense of either an HDX or Core but as I already had the HDX as my original source and convenient ripper there was no need to change.

Clive B posted:

I reckon a can of Pledge and a duster on those unused shelves will make everything sound better.

It’s magic sound dust, you can buy it for £50 an ounce ????

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

 

i suspect if you had two ND555s, with SPDIF out of one fed into the SPDIF in of another this effect would disappear or be massively reduced.

Interesting.....twin ND555s with 4 x 555PS could be the Statement level streamer we’ve all been waiting for ????

Jonn posted:

I have a similar setup with HDX as server to my NDS. Comparing tracks direct from the QNAP using Minimserver with those using the HDX as server I found very little difference and marginally preferred the HDX route. 

Starting from scratch I probably wouldn’t go to the expense of either an HDX or Core but as I already had the HDX as my original source and convenient ripper there was no need to change.

If you are running a NAS for any reason and have something like an HDX, it's a really simple thing to try. Same with different file formats. It's nice when you can do these easy comparisons. 

For what it was, the HDX was the right thing at the right time for this household. But like you, if starting again, I wouldn't go there.

Darke Bear posted:

 

...I was not sure if I dared mention any of this as I'll probably be given chapter and verse why it is impossible - but it is there.

DB.

It has been vouchedsafe to me in this very forum that if I can hear differences in digital and/or network cables, my system is "fundamentally broken". But you have a Statement. So you're alright. Lucky escape for you.

As far as the perceived effects of different ways of gaining access to the music I'm reporting what I hear irrespective of what may be actually going on underneath it all. I can conceive different things that may be playing into this from my own technical background, but I don't want to inset anything of these and keep my contribution to - 'what does it sound like' and 'does it work well'.

My problem is that I use music and the music system as a way to get away from that mode of mind and into another place mentally, so although I can do a surface evaluation of the facts as they marry onto what I know about network operation, data buffer-control and other lower level things, it really spoils my perception and enjoyment of the music, certainly for the brief window I have this kit for home-demo, to over-think this all.

As to the music performance: there is the usual 'warm-up' time previously mentioned and although it sounds great right away it definitely gets into a higher performance level capability after a day on, which does not surprise me after my own experience with Naim equipment.

The sound is very 'tight' in a musical sense and not the normal hifi sense of the use of that word. Musicians playing with their timing very tightly-coupled is stunningly portrayed with this device in a way I've never heard done. The bass timing renders the fundamentals of this rhythmic aspect of the performance right into your consciousness bypassing any intellect - you really 'get' it or better-put it gets you.

As to the music-handling via the Naim App: some minor annoying issues, but they are presently just irritations and I'm prepared to work around them for now to achieve the musical results - but I'll mention them as I want them fixed someday. When controlling the music via the Naim App that in turn loads into the Twonky Server (as the app-selected option) I find two things cause major irritation:
1. The iPad running the app - even though I've put this onto an Ethernet LAN cable - when it goes to sleep after a long session loses connection with the Naim virtual 'room' and going into 'finding rooms' and locks-up the iPad for about two minutes where you have no control over anything other than the front panel pause-stop button on the ND555. I'd like it not to do this! I set the iPad to not sleep and that seems to work - mostly - but then drains the battery very-rapidly and you need to remember to allow sleep-mode after your music session - so more fussy tweaking which would not be needed if the App just remembered where it last was.
2. The iPad App and the ND555 in-sync with the App, randomly drops Album artwork pictures back to default - usually when you click on the album to access the track-listing. Then both the Naim CD555 front interface and the Naim App lose the picture and you get the two fingers default. It should be noted that the Twonky Server does not do this and when invoked from that the music artwork is there and present correct all the time - just when using the Naim App this happens - so more development needed here I think.

The above is presented in the spirit of 'lets make it better' in a future App update, as it surely can be done. At this level of outlay I expect not to see Artworks randomly disappearing as you use the device - and the forgetting of the last-used network configuration to control the last-used ND555.

DB.

DB, artwork randomly disappearing on the Naim app almost certainly is an issue with your media server as it tells the Naim app ( and the display part of your streamer) to overwrite it’s track art with an empty or invalid file... remember the Naim app is mostly a highly specialised web browser... fed by the media server or equivalent.

Your issue with your virtual room disappearing after a while looks like non optimal networking with IGM0 not correctly working or SSDP adverts not correctly working on your home network. I suspect this would occur with many products, not just Naim.

I normally suspect IGMP issues on Wifi access points here, unless you are using an older cheap consumer switch where this could also be problematic.

what are you using? I guess your home network should be of the quality of your ND555 to match its performance. You are welcome to drop me an email and I can discuss with you off forum how to potentially improve things here... happy to do this for long standing forumites .. and several have benefitted already. 

At this price point you need to make sure you are using the right tools for the job... I wouldn’t poor used chip fryer oil into my BMW.. although it would work of a fashion.

The Twonkey Server Web interface works fine with no Artwork issues Simon, so it is particular to the Naim App. In any case it needs solving by not-me at this price-point.

DB.

I'm using the latest BT home hub - with a wired Ethernet connecting the iPad - no WiFi (horror).

It is the most basic simple consumer set-up with dynamic address allocation - the Naim App should easy deal with this.

The only simple option I have is to start allocating static addresses but it should not need it.
Only the App is going off and all the other equipment is on and retaining the same address it had before the App 'forgets' what it was last doing. When monitoring it the iPad comes back on its last DNS address, as you may expect, so it really should not be going into 'hello world' mode every time.

DB.

So what are you using to interface the iPad usb interface to Ethernet? Are you confident that is honouring the network protocols required?

The BT Homehub if it’s only a few years old should be fine.. as that supports the required functionality well. Not sure why you are mentioning manually defined addresses... there is something very wrong if you are needing to do that and you limit the flexibility and usability of the app and your home network.

this sounds like basic discovery issues... and something in your chain appears to be blocking this between your iPad and Ethernet... some Wifi access points can be a culprit... but if you are not using one.. then it’s point to your iPad Ethernet adapter or what ever you are using.

perhaps best kIS. Use the Wifi on the Homehub with iPad and take it from there..

I'm using:

aceyoon iPad Ethernet Adapter Cable 1m 3ft Lightning to RJ45 Lan Network Wired Adaptor 10 / 100mbps Required iOS 10.0 Higher compatible 8 pin iPhone x 8 7 7 Plus iPod

Don't want to break any link laws so google it.

I had the same problems with WiFi too and it is why I went to a wired connection to solve it - but the problem is the App.

Simon - I should not be having to do all this is my point. If I'm having these problems - and I do know more about networks than many - then I'm identifying to Naim a problem they need to resolve.

Telling the customer they are not doing it right only works for so long.

The BT hub is brand new with latest release of software as of a week ago - not that.

DB.

Happy to talk offline.. I have not seen these issues  from the app that you describe.. ....and it sounds like something in your home network is not working as it should and there are some checks one can do here... I would go back to Wifi though for your iPad and take it from there....

This doesn’t sound Naim related... I suspect it will affect anything trying to use your home network infrastructure the same way that Naim does.

kind of like getting a puncture from hitting a pothole in my new Aston Martin... I could blame the tyre manufacturer, but ultimately it’s the Council that has the responsibility for preventing and filling the pot hole in the first place.. no matter how frustrating.

Good to hear that it is all my fault and there is no problem - just my imagination.

In any case perhaps someone at Naim will take a look at the next App version to prevent it locking-up the iPad Interface while it does this. I used to design interface software and know what causes what and a process running on the iPad should not be working this way.

I'll not discuss it anymore as it is pointless.

Your choice, but there is an offer of help or at least talking through if you wish, and I advise keeping it simple.

My point Simon is that Naim should not need experts on the forum to help get their product to work in a straight-forward home installation of their equipment. 

I appreciate that you are sincere and genuine in wanting to assist and probably don't live a million miles from me - we have probably even met - so not aimed at you as a person.

My point is that the Naim App should be robust enough that it just works with the Servers that it expects and shows as valid in its menu. Am I wrong in my thinking here - and why?

Unless you want to have a full-time support job, then I'm just trying to gently give feedback from a customer that things could work a bit better without getting my head bit-off!

Once all else fails then I'll concoct my own solution, but in meantime I'm just using it like it seems to suggest - I think.

There are other things I'm also noticing that impact end-performance in how the data is stored on the drive, but that is probably a can of worms I can't prove without someone here listening to what I mean.

----

All that aside the sound quality and more especially the music rendering capability of the ND555 is special. I'll focus my comments ahead in that area as I'm not intending to upset anyone.

My aim is to find out: do I want one, does it all work well-enough, are there any issues, any performance optimizations possible?

The answer to the above is a general 'yes', but I'm transiting from a no-nonsense CD system to a more flexible and seemingly more capable player - albeit with installation and optimization issues to be got down right.

This is what I'm trying to achieve by home experiment and some sharing of this in discussion on the forum.

Simon - I respect and value your input - I just want Naim to be taking some note too so you have less work!

DB.

https://www.swpc.noaa.gov/products/planetary-k-index

Also the needles are in the red today right now according to NOAA and I generally find I get less tolerant at such times, so I'll focus on music.

DB.

musicfan51 posted:

Darke Bear posted:

Home-demo part 2 underway...

Interesting.

Hope you are impressed ! 

Why is an expensive Melco server needed?

Darke Bear posted:

I'm using the latest BT home hub - with a wired Ethernet connecting the iPad - no WiFi (horror).

It is the most basic simple consumer set-up with dynamic address allocation - the Naim App should easy deal with this.

The only simple option I have is to start allocating static addresses but it should not need it.
Only the App is going off and all the other equipment is on and retaining the same address it had before the App 'forgets' what it was last doing. When monitoring it the iPad comes back on its last DNS address, as you may expect, so it really should not be going into 'hello world' mode every time.

DB.

Dark Bear, I have never heard, until now, that someone is running the iPad app with an iPad connected by a lan cable and adapter.  It is possibly the answer.   But I have no technical answers to give. I hope you will solve that.   I feel the cd555 is near to go, my feeling....