ND555 Impressions

Pretty much my thoughts Mike. And I have no doubt that the Core is a really nice piece of kit. This might be a more professional/honest/credible way of differentiating it. The approach described by Lindsay (and I'm not trying to shoot the messenger) smacks of desperation. maybe they are not selling sufficiently?

Harry posted:

Pretty much my thoughts Mike. And I have no doubt that the Core is a really nice piece of kit. This might be a more professional/honest/credible way of differentiating it. The approach described by Lindsay (and I'm not trying to shoot the messenger) smacks of desperation. maybe they are not selling sufficiently?

I normally also dismiss these type of things. But I have learned over the years that obvious things are not that obvious. And I ask myself why professional companies like Naim, Melco and others are selling special ripping solutions when the difference is not real and just snake oil. Also my dealer was having a workshop with a Melco drive - which I missed by the way.

perhaps some of our senior technical members can shed a light on Snake Oil or not...

Our ND555 hit Audience Bath today and is now on the van and heading for us. 

The original delivery projection was first week in September. This puts delivery at one week early.

I hope this pattern is more widely reflected.

Harry posted:

Our ND555 hit Audience Bath today and is now on the van and heading for us. 

The original delivery projection was first week in September. This puts delivery at one week early.

I hope this pattern is more widely reflected.

Harry, enjoy your ND555 be nice to hear how it settles in.

Bert Schurink posted:

Harry posted:

Pretty much my thoughts Mike. And I have no doubt that the Core is a really nice piece of kit. This might be a more professional/honest/credible way of differentiating it. The approach described by Lindsay (and I'm not trying to shoot the messenger) smacks of desperation. maybe they are not selling sufficiently?

I normally also dismiss these type of things. But I have learned over the years that obvious things are not that obvious. And I ask myself why professional companies like Naim, Melco and others are selling special ripping solutions when the difference is not real and just snake oil. Also my dealer was having a workshop with a Melco drive - which I missed by the way.

perhaps some of our senior technical members can shed a light on Snake Oil or not...

I seem to recall that in the early years of the UnitiServe, Naim made claims that its rips sound better.  While I never bought into that, I did indeed buy a UnitiServe because it was at the time of my entry into home networked audio (and my entry into home hi fi generally after many years without it), and I wanted to simplify matters and remove variables.  My life with the UnitiServe, from those later perspectives, was successful.

Same with the HDX. We could be assured of bit perfect rips and therefore nothing could sound better. Maybe equal but not better. It was only when we took the HDX out that we discovered that it could be bettered. The second thing we discovered, and more relevant to this micro conversation, was that it didn't tag WAV files. It showed them to appear to be tagged from within the Naim universe, but not from without it. A Naim ripper should do perfect rips. You can achieve the same result for less than a £100. Less than £50 actually.  But a Naim ripper doesn't do perfect tags on WAV files. Despite the Naim universe illusion, it doesn't actually tag them at all. For that you need to use freeware!

Pcd posted:

Harry, enjoy your ND555 be nice to hear how it settles in.

Thank you. We sure will

It's in, it's running. Cor. 

And apparently it will take a month to fully loosen up. 

I may be gone some time....

Harry posted:

Same with the HDX. We could be assured of bit perfect rips and therefore nothing could sound better. Maybe equal but not better. It was only when we took the HDX out that we discovered that it could be bettered. The second thing we discovered, and more relevant to this micro conversation, was that it didn't tag WAV files. It showed them to appear to be tagged from within the Naim universe, but not from without it. A Naim ripper should do perfect rips. You can achieve the same result for less than a £100. Less than £50 actually.  But a Naim ripper doesn't do perfect tags on WAV files. Despite the Naim universe illusion, it doesn't actually tag them at all. For that you need to use freeware!

The usage of a proprietary database to store the metadata of .WAV rips could possibly be justified at the time when the UnitiServe's software system was designed. This was more than ten years ago. What is more diffucult to understand is that over the last ten years this system has not evolved and that basically the same software design, meanwhile completely obsolete, has been adopted for the Core and, more generally, for the new Linux-based platform. It would have been easy to add, as a minimum, functionalities to export the contents of the proprietary data base to a standard format and, conversely, to import from a standard format into the proprietary data base. This would have at least improved interoperability and simplified migrating music collections from/to the Naim universe. Even more worring is the fact that Naim's UPnP server (also a proprietary, poorly documented software which is now deployed on the Core, on Uniti range devices and, I understand, also on the ND555 and on the upcoming NDX2) still offers very poor support for classical music and, in terms of flexibility and customizability lies far behind well established products like MinimServer or Asset. It's a pity because Naim makes devices that are sonically excellent, well built and aesthetically appealing. Their software solutions, however, are rather unconvincing and immature.

Well I had the pleasure of hearing the new ND555 yesterday afternoon at Cymbiosis, and the jury is still very much out as to what I heard.  I have listened to the NDS at length and remain unconvinced that streaming isn't for me. My only conclusion from yesterday was that the ND555 does outperform the NDS in certain area's but for the price difference I was probably expecting more form the new streamer.

To be fair most of the music heard wasn't to my taste but it was in an environment I am very familiar with but I was left underwhelmed and wanting more. Listening to my old fashioned CD 555, I really don't feel I am missing out on anything.

As I said, the jury is out and I may change my opinion on further listening but for now, I still haven't heard anything I want to change my trusty CD 555 for, sorry!

I'd be sorry too if I'd just saved myself thirteen grand!

NBPF. I think all your points are well made. It's not for me to dictate what people like or to tell them what they are hearing. However, when marketing over engineering flips into a parallel universe.......

Probably enough said from me. Don't want to crap the thread.

Harry posted:

The Strat (Fender) posted:

 

But I spent quite a bit of time discussing the benefits of the Uniticore vs DbPoweramp.    I have to say I’m impressed with the simplicity of the Core. It performed a perfect rip of one of my classical CDs metadata and all, but equally I recognise the editing capabilities of Db.  

This is interesting. dBpoweramp also does perfect rips and embeds the metadata (which you have full control of pre and post ripping) in the WAV file, not in a separate file which cannot be read by anything except a Naim server. So what is the dealer trying to imply? That a Naim ripper can do something that an application like dBpoweramp cannot? Bullshit alert!

We are each free to use whatever ripping and tagging solution we want. No justification needed. No argument. But when a dealer (or was it Naim&gt tries to justify something by using bullshit, you have to wonder what they are hiding.

Harry - I am outraged that you should have so misinterpreted my post.  Simply Cymbiosis demonstrated to me both Core and dB.   They made no recommendation as to which option (if any) I should pursue those judgements are purely mine   Will you please rescind your comments. 

Best regards,

Lindsay 

Polarbear posted:

Well I had the pleasure of hearing the new ND555 yesterday afternoon at Cymbiosis, and the jury is still very much out as to what I heard.  I have listened to the NDS at length and remain unconvinced that streaming isn't for me. My only conclusion from yesterday was that the ND555 does outperform the NDS in certain area's but for the price difference I was probably expecting more form the new streamer.

To be fair most of the music heard wasn't to my taste but it was in an environment I am very familiar with but I was left underwhelmed and wanting more. Listening to my old fashioned CD 555, I really don't feel I am missing out on anything.

As I said, the jury is out and I may change my opinion on further listening but for now, I still haven't heard anything I want to change my trusty CD 555 for, sorry!

This perception on the ND555 and Streaming in general vs non-streaming and specifically the CD555 and any upgrade from it I personally align with, as I've had my own problems with certain musical aspects of performance that seem to have a limit set on them with streaming no matter how much other areas improve.

I personally had no idea what was imposing that limit, as from a certain engineering perspective it is easier to cleanly clock the data from a silicon buffer-store near the DAC than have to spin the CD and go through the extraction process before that - so why was this still sounding better to me in certain important musical areas?

I presumed it had something to do with CD player being 'all in a box' and Streaming being part of a distributed network and the latter in some way impairing performance, no matter what was being positively musically improved elsewhere.

...but long story short - I've also pressed the 'buy' -button for ND555 as of today after working out I could just about afford it - so what changed, for me?

Well I heard a system in which that 'problem' was drastically reduced if not totally removed and let the ND555 work without this negative aspect - as I hear it a murky-smearing with added coloration and impairment to musical timing that just turned me away and off. For me the Melco removed that problem and presented a fresh and clear sound - there may be other ways to also do this, but this one I've heard work - and that is a relief, for me, to hear it can be done.

Different people are more or less sensitive to this aspect of performance I've found - and some people really don't seem to hear of get that there is any problem with most streaming solutions. I don't think - and am not saying - that you need a Melco, but that great care is needed with the streaming solution in extracting the music from where it is stored and delivering it to the DAC (inside the ND555 in this case). For me the Melco was an easy available solution that home-demo proved worked - and it does all the music ripping too as you just plug a CD Drive into it and it automatically does it all after prompting from box-front mini-menu and does all tags and artworks too - so pain-free - for me.

I also, at my Dealers a few weeks ago, investigated different ways to obtain a WAV Rip from an identical CD to verify they sounded the same (which is what I wanted to hear) - but they don't - and significantly don't. This really surprised me - I thought WTF is happening? We tried the CD into an Apple computer via a USB drive using A. DB Powereramp (I think), then B. the same USB Drive and CD into the Melco Direct, then C. via what I really hoped was a 'snake-oil' Melco special ripper device.

We then played them back via the Statement system using Melco to host the file:
Sample A sounded like typical streamed music to me - nice but with a 'rounded' quality and some temporal smear.
Sample B was much better - all murky smear was gone and timing much better.
Sample C was even better in terms of background quietness - a big surprise to me.

As Sample B and C were in a higher league from A (for whatever reason) we switched between them via the Melco - ND555 - Statement system and they were close, but 'B' had a distinct halo of background noise present at very low level that 'C' just did not have. In parallel to this 'C' version sounded just more inviting and interesting than 'B' and both were in a different league from A.

Melco claim they 'pack the bits' more efficiently on their rips, or something to that effect. At the time I was not looking for science project to explore it all but just answer my question: Do different ways of Ripping matter and what do I need to do to get an optimal solution? I've been told by some other sources that the Rip is everything and not to assume they all are the same, so it was interesting.

I know what I've said above may offend many who want things to not be like this, but it is just for information for people to find out for themselves what may get them to a result that resurrects streaming to life for them - perhaps.

DB.

HI Gary, thank you for your eloquent repost to my  post, however for me, you go on at length about all the reasons why I don't want to go down the streaming route. 

For me, there is a simplicity of picking up a CD case, taking the CD out of the case, putting it in the draw and pressing play. I know exactly what the CD player is doing and there are no unknowns that are going to affect the sound quality of the CDP, what I don't want to be doing is sitting there wondering if WAV is better than Flak or whatever else there is, I don't want to be thinking about what NAS drive sounds better and what ethernet cable I should be using.

The majority of my listening now is from the very simple NAT 01, its so easy and the sound quality, even after all these years is stunning, second is the trusty CD 555 and then the faithful Roksan gets the special listening but even then there are so many variables with the Roksan to second guess and for me this all just takes away from the enjoyment of the music.

Sometimes just less is so much more.

I fully-get where you are with streaming replay PB and and do not intend to sway your own considered view - which in very large part I also agree with.

Personally I've got enough technical background to know what I don't know well enough that I can usually find a way ahead for me. So just sharing information was the intent with my previous post.

Also I've wanted for a long time to get Streaming to 'work' for me - in that I get what my CD555 does included into the replay qualities of the music. I think I done that with the ND555 home demo system I tried. Not saying I everywhere beat what the CD555 did and I suspect it still has a certain integrity in its presentation as an edge over the ND555 - but the latter also had some musical qualities that drew me and these I want to explore some more over time.

DB.

DB thanks for keep us updated.

What is the cost of the said Melco device, and which one is it ?

Polarbear posted:

For me, there is a simplicity of picking up a CD case, taking the CD out of the case, putting it in the draw and pressing play. I know exactly what the CD player is doing and there are no unknowns that are going to affect the sound quality of the CDP, what I don't want to be doing is sitting there wondering if WAV is better than Flak or whatever else there is, I don't want to be thinking about what NAS drive sounds better and what ethernet cable I should be using.

 

But CD has many variables and interactions ... the CD material dyes... Cyanine, Phthalcyanine, Azo Dye, Aluminuim or Gold... all said to sound slightly different.. then there is the disc weight, and spiral groove accuracy, as well as disc balance for micro vibration... it’s true you don’t generally hear of this mentioned apart from the true obsessive, but I think the same tends to be true with streaming as well... albeit more feel more comfortable with streaming to tweak.

Gary, congratulations! Its great you have found a way to make the ND555 sound to your satisfaction in your fab system!

I must admit at one point, I thought you had decided against it -- but there were enough positive things you said about it to make me think you would succumb at some point :-)

when do you get your new baby? Its good that you have done all the preparatory work so thoroughly so that when your new ND555, plus all the paraphernalia to make it work for you, arrive -- things will just work and you will be in musical nirvana.

enjoy

ken

Polarbear posted:

The majority of my listening now is from the very simple NAT 01, 

Ah! NAT01... very special and the most played source in my system...

one of these days, I might consider a special naim p/s for it, but hey, I digress...

enjoy

ken

I owned a Garrard AP96 when I was at Uni and loved it.

Then I read about 'wow and flutter' in the then hifi mags.

Then I began to 'hear' 'wow ad flutter' from my record deck... :-)

enjoy

ken

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Polarbear posted:

For me, there is a simplicity of picking up a CD case, taking the CD out of the case, putting it in the draw and pressing play. I know exactly what the CD player is doing and there are no unknowns that are going to affect the sound quality of the CDP, what I don't want to be doing is sitting there wondering if WAV is better than Flak or whatever else there is, I don't want to be thinking about what NAS drive sounds better and what ethernet cable I should be using.

 

But CD has many variables and interactions ... the CD material dyes... Cyanine, Phthalcyanine, Azo Dye, Aluminuim or Gold... all said to sound slightly different.. then there is the disc weight, and spiral groove accuracy, as well as disc balance for micro vibration... it’s true you don’t generally hear of this mentioned apart from the true obsessive, but I think the same tends to be true with streaming as well... albeit more feel more comfortable with streaming to tweak.

Simon - really?  Okay I’ve no doubt what you say is true but in reality folks auditioned a CD player took it home and bought the music.  Oh sorry I forget the fretted about the cables.   I guess audio neurosis has always existed

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Polarbear posted:

For me, there is a simplicity of picking up a CD case, taking the CD out of the case, putting it in the draw and pressing play. I know exactly what the CD player is doing and there are no unknowns that are going to affect the sound quality of the CDP, what I don't want to be doing is sitting there wondering if WAV is better than Flak or whatever else there is, I don't want to be thinking about what NAS drive sounds better and what ethernet cable I should be using.

 

But CD has many variables and interactions ... the CD material dyes... Cyanine, Phthalcyanine, Azo Dye, Aluminuim or Gold... all said to sound slightly different.. then there is the disc weight, and spiral groove accuracy, as well as disc balance for micro vibration... it’s true you don’t generally hear of this mentioned apart from the true obsessive, but I think the same tends to be true with streaming as well... albeit more feel more comfortable with streaming to tweak.

You might be right, Simon, but we users can't affect any of those factors. I read PB's comment as not wanting those nagging doubts about optimisation and tweaking to get in the way of just enjoying music. Streaming, as opposed to CD replay, opens up a whole realm of things that might be sub-optimal and about which the OCD in us might fret.   So I have much sympathy with PB's view. One of the reasons I've gone for a all-naim set-up (apart from speakers) is the comforting thought that those obsessive people at naim have spent ages doing all that trial&error stuff with the result that the matched kit and cables in the system are pretty much optimised. Once my (great) dealer has got the rack sorted and the cabling appropriately dressed I can just sit back, press the play button and relax into the music.  Just saying....

The Strat (Fender) posted:

...  I guess audio neurosis has always existed

Exactly.. you name it.. Tuners with exotic aerials and coax, huge amount of variables with turntables, CD types and treatments for CDP ... and then there is streaming... where a bit like turntables many tweaks and things to fiddle with...

or you can set up and then enjoy without fretting... just like I now do with CDP and streaming... it’s probably fair to say my inclination to fiddle and tweak largely went once I got my 552.  

ken c posted:

Gary, congratulations! Its great you have found a way to make the ND555 sound to your satisfaction in your fab system!

I must admit at one point, I thought you had decided against it -- but there were enough positive things you said about it to make me think you would succumb at some point :-)

when do you get your new baby? Its good that you have done all the preparatory work so thoroughly so that when your new ND555, plus all the paraphernalia to make it work for you, arrive -- things will just work and you will be in musical nirvana.

Thanks Ken!

It will be a few weeks before it arrives I suspect, but as I've tried to say, I'm also enjoying my CD555 meantime, so I consider this to be a new venture into different musical realms that carries with it enough (if not hopefully all) of the the CD555 qualities I've grown to rely on. The CD555 just 'works' and does not ever give me the feeling it is struggling to do anything and is master of delivering the music on the CD without adding anything overly from itself as HiFi gloss - just music.

The ND555 had a similar feeling of integrity to it over the home demo. It was (for me) initially more fussy to get it all right to what I like to hear done well - but I'm very demanding certain things are done right, then very forgiving of a lot of other things that can be wrong as long as the essentials are there. These are that I don't hear anything other than the music - I don't mind noise or a bit of dullness even, but hate undue brightness or anything murky moving about in the bass - it can happen and I'm possibly overly sensitive to the latter, as many people don't seem to either hear it or not realize that when that musical realm is clear of problems there is 'something' there to be had.

Musical Nirvana is a nice idea, but I'll settle for getting it all installed in a few weeks and not too much pain in run-in - but know the sort of things to expect.

DB.