ND555 Impressions
Posted by: Bert Schurink on 26 July 2018
The Beast will arrive and will be installed tomorrow morning in my system. So I thought it was a good moment to open up a thread with the fist experiences, also giving others the possibility to share their first impressions with the beast.
I feeel a bit like a little child who has his birthday tomorrow. I assume that even while it will be nice weather during the weekend that I will be a spending a lot of hours with my system.
And as expected my car will not arrive before the ND555.
Yes, I hear the price of Wax Cylinder Phonographs is holding up well.
Anyone know what they sound like and the availability of the Wax Cylinders?
If I'm honest Clive, I'm already there.
Bonkers huh? But so much fun. Might as well enjoy it while I still can!
£13K? I wish. There is also the small matter of what powers it.
The only wax cylinder I've heard is what occasionally falls out the side of my head.
If I was a used market watcher (as I am for my cars) I would be jumping for joy at the NDXs and NDSs becoming available this year. For what they are, nothing about these sucks at all - not even the price now.
NDX for 2400€ and 2100€. NDS 5k€. Don‘t get me wrong, I will go for an NDX2 when it is really that good, but the digital progress in audio kills money too fast....
NDS is still an excellent streamer!
Simon-in-Suffolk posted:Polarbear posted:Point 2, I am very happy with what I have, it ain't broke and I don't have an itch to scratch re upgrading.
That point so resonates with me.. in the decades I have been pursuing this hobby of recorded audio replay systems (Hi-Fi) ... I have realised that the urge to upgrade has usually been fuelled by an underlying feeling of dissatisfaction of the end product or when I have moved house and listening environment... no matter how much you convinced yourself otherwise... However there then gets a point in your journey where for you in your listening environment it all clicks into place... you get that intense feeling of satisfaction from the results produced based on the audio experience in your envinment.. it’s not simply based on the sound being produced by the ‘best’ equipment you can get ... The latter motivation leads to inevitable dissatisfaction and the urge to try and I improve your audio experience as new product appears ... until you get, assuming you ever do, to the former...
I do wonder with all these apparent NDS sales... were the owners truly satisfied with it... or was it more it was the best streamer Naim had at the time? For me I was never a fan of the NDS sound, but that is entirely subjective.. it’s a very capable machine... and search back on this forum I wrote a lot about it when the NDS was new... I wonder how many of these new ND555 customers will become truly satisfied with the end results ... or we will see at some point in the future a flood of sales if and when the ND555-2. To my ears clearly there is a refinement with the ND555 but it’s not so far away from the NDS... I am certainly curious of it .. more perhaps as an engineer.. but no urge to change my current system to accommodate it.
Simon, to my ears the ND555 is light years from the NDS, excellent as it was.
Light years......blimey, it must be good. What is that, 20%, 30% better, even doubly better?
I'm gonna start saving, right now.
(BTW, I have heard a comparison between the NDS and the ND555, and 'light years' didn't spring to mind).
When the nds was produced, some choose it vs the cd555, thinking that it was very close to it, a bit different too, and more convenient.
Recently some owners of the cd555 decided to sell their cd555, to get the nd555. But no one of these new happy owners said than the nd555 was well ahead over the cd555.
There is no doubt that the nd555 is better than the nds, but I strongly doubt, given the informations above, that the nd555 is light years vs the nds. It must be like cds3 vs cd555, very probably.
Some members here were at some demos, and found the differences not night and day. Other were talking of “ another league “, “ 30% better”. I am curious to hear it by myself, and see how better vs an nds the nd555 really is.
Theres something very right about the ND555 apparent from the first note, similar to CD555
The NDS for me never has this quality.
The 'how much better' discussion was as inevitable as it is ultimately futile if you don't audition the system yourself. IMHO of course!
Notice I say 'system' not 'device', as HiFi components work together in a system of other component devices and interconnects - and this matters in my little universe and perhaps a few others as well.
The NDS was similar and different but not better than my CD555 is fair to say when I auditioned it way-back years ago. I really liked it and if I owned one would use it alternating with my CD555 to do the 'missing' things that I found it did better - but the NDS did some things better than the CD555 so it was not one or the other for me. In the end I figured I'd wait as the cost outlay did not, in my mind, justify the NDS for my system.
Forward to recently and the ND555 demo. It is a different beast in my system and filled it out in a way that the NDS did not and in areas where my CD555 was not really going. These were in terms of the frequency extremes of low-tight and detailed bass articulation, timing and power - and top-end openness and lack of any feeling of containment - and also the seamless presentation. The latter, when done well is captivating and when done poorly is relentless I've found with some system combinations. Fortunately it was the good version here.
My only - and continuing - feeling is that the mid-band is just done differently on ND555 and CD555 and that on some music the extra open-window of the ND555 took me places I was pleased to go - but the CD555 has an intimacy and closeness to some musical performances that really puts you into the musical moment in a way I've not heard beaten, even by the ND555. But they are close and different in what they do here and it is just my own opinion.
So as before said - I've taken the plunge and ordered the ND555 based on what it revealed in my demo. I still have reservations about music access and control, but musical quality less so - I think it will be better overall. Perhaps not everywhere - this I'm still not certain about and will not be until I own and live with it for a few months.
I think the ND555, like the CD555 before it, made my music suddenly new and full of a different life and it is hard to pass that up if you can get it. The NDS never passed that test as much as the ND555, so for me it is right for my system. I hope!
DB.
Darke Bear posted:….
My only - and continuing - feeling is that the mid-band is just done differently on ND555 and CD555 and that on some music the extra open-window of the ND555 took me places I was pleased to go - but the CD555 has an intimacy and closeness to some musical performances that really puts you into the musical moment in a way I've not heard beaten, even by the ND555. But they are close and different in what they do here and it is just my own opinion.
….
DB.
to what extent might some of your reservations be that, in your highly revealing system, the ND555 probably needs to run-in a bit more. It will be interesting to see if you feel/hear the same after about a month or so when the ND555 will presumably have loosened up a little more?? just a thought...
enjoy/ken
That is what I'm hoping Ken. The ND555 did more - but over many years of things HiFi sometimes different can seem better - why I need extended time to find out if I was subliminally not playing some music. Overall it was very positive so I think it will be an overall upgrade and hpe to repost positive things after extended run-in.
But I'm only reporting what I hear now and not what I want to hear later that I've not yet reached. ND555 is very capable and musical - it did rhythms really well I thought. My comments were in context of 10% - 30% to 'Light Years' better, so just another opinion.
DB.
Darke Bear posted:That is what I'm hoping Ken. The ND555 did more - but over many years of things HiFi sometimes different can seem better - why I need extended time to find out if I was subliminally not playing some music. Overall it was very positive so I think it will be an overall upgrade and hpe to repost positive things after extended run-in.
But I'm only reporting what I hear now and not what I want to hear later that I've not yet reached. ND555 is very capable and musical - it did rhythms really well I thought. My comments were in context of 10% - 30% to 'Light Years' better, so just another opinion.
DB.
When I got a new 555DR power supply I was told it took two months to totally burn in . It is very likely that the ND555 streamer may take a couple of months of play to fully realize it’s potential!
Hello
I am curious about this burn in. I certainly can see that components change value as they burn in. What surprises me is that its possible to design the equipment and the assy processes so that as they burn in, the sound gets better. I would like to hear more about this from those who might have insight. How do they know that the sound will not get worse? Seems just as likely that the changes could go either way. Perhaps it has nothing to do with component values, but maybe stress relieving all the components and they behave more perfectly than in the first assembled state?
Bailyhill
Bailyhill posted:Hello
I am curious about this burn in. I certainly can see that components change value as they burn in. What surprises me is that its possible to design the equipment and the assy processes so that as they burn in, the sound gets better. I would like to hear more about this from those who might have insight. How do they know that the sound will not get worse? Seems just as likely that the changes could go either way. Perhaps it has nothing to do with component values, but maybe stress relieving all the components and they behave more perfectly than in the first assembled state?
Bailyhill
I can not explain it. All I know is it is well known that Naim gear gets better sounding with some run in time !
Bailyhill posted:Hello
I am curious about this burn in. I certainly can see that components change value as they burn in. What surprises me is that its possible to design the equipment and the assy processes so that as they burn in, the sound gets better. I would like to hear more about this from those who might have insight. How do they know that the sound will not get worse? Seems just as likely that the changes could go either way. Perhaps it has nothing to do with component values, but maybe stress relieving all the components and they behave more perfectly than in the first assembled state?
Bailyhill
Burn in is really nothing more than electrolytic capacitors expanding. When caps are new are tight and sometimes can even produce a hum sound. When current is run through them they expand. When they expand they sound more open, have a wider sound stage and have a warmer sound.
All electronics, weather they are tube or solid state - even speakers, will sound better with about 300 hours of use. The more capacitors, the longer the burn in required. Cables do not need 'burn in' as that is a misnomer and not an accurate on at that. Only really bad cables that use plastic, Teflon or other polymer based material sound better with a burn in due to the fact that they exhibit so much dialectic interference.
I hope that answers your questions!
Thanks PACM103
That makes a lot of sense. Must mostly affect analog circuits. I guess as things like DAC's transition to FPGA's, burn in should be minimized. In fact, I wonder if burning in the PSU's takes care of most of the effect? I guess not, as ND555 owners are expecting their SQ to improve with burn in. Of course, that could be primarily the PS, but pics show caps most everywhere.
Bailyhill
Bailyhill posted:Thanks PACM103
That makes a lot of sense. Must mostly affect analog circuits. I guess as things like DAC's transition to FPGA's, burn in should be minimized. In fact, I wonder if burning in the PSU's takes care of most of the effect? I guess not, as ND555 owners are expecting their SQ to improve with burn in. Of course, that could be primarily the PS, but pics show caps most everywhere.
Bailyhill
It’s still getting better. But not like night and day like you have if also your ps is new...
Bailyhill posted:Hello
I am curious about this burn in. I certainly can see that components change value as they burn in. What surprises me is that its possible to design the equipment and the assy processes so that as they burn in, the sound gets better. I would like to hear more about this from those who might have insight. How do they know that the sound will not get worse? Seems just as likely that the changes could go either way. Perhaps it has nothing to do with component values, but maybe stress relieving all the components and they behave more perfectly than in the first assembled state?
Bailyhill
I don't know where you live, but if you ever get an opportunity, a factory tour will answer all your questions and more. Speak to you dealer about booking.
Cables also need to run in including those inside the ND555
pacmi03 posted:Bailyhill posted:Hello
I am curious about this burn in. I certainly can see that components change value as they burn in. What surprises me is that its possible to design the equipment and the assy processes so that as they burn in, the sound gets better. I would like to hear more about this from those who might have insight. How do they know that the sound will not get worse? Seems just as likely that the changes could go either way. Perhaps it has nothing to do with component values, but maybe stress relieving all the components and they behave more perfectly than in the first assembled state?
Bailyhill
Burn in is really nothing more than electrolytic capacitors expanding. When caps are new are tight and sometimes can even produce a hum sound. When current is run through them they expand. When they expand they sound more open, have a wider sound stage and have a warmer sound.
All electronics, weather they are tube or solid state - even speakers, will sound better with about 300 hours of use. The more capacitors, the longer the burn in required. Cables do not need 'burn in' as that is a misnomer and not an accurate on at that. Only really bad cables that use plastic, Teflon or other polymer based material sound better with a burn in due to the fact that they exhibit so much dialectic interference.
I hope that answers your questions!
My Super Lumina cables took months to come on song. Are you saying that they are really bad cables, because they cost me a lot. Did I make a mistake?
pacmi03 posted:Bailyhill posted:Hello
I am curious about this burn in. I certainly can see that components change value as they burn in. What surprises me is that its possible to design the equipment and the assy processes so that as they burn in, the sound gets better. I would like to hear more about this from those who might have insight. How do they know that the sound will not get worse? Seems just as likely that the changes could go either way. Perhaps it has nothing to do with component values, but maybe stress relieving all the components and they behave more perfectly than in the first assembled state?
Bailyhill
Burn in is really nothing more than electrolytic capacitors expanding. When caps are new are tight and sometimes can even produce a hum sound. When current is run through them they expand. When they expand they sound more open, have a wider sound stage and have a warmer sound.
All electronics, weather they are tube or solid state - even speakers, will sound better with about 300 hours of use. The more capacitors, the longer the burn in required. Cables do not need 'burn in' as that is a misnomer and not an accurate on at that. Only really bad cables that use plastic, Teflon or other polymer based material sound better with a burn in due to the fact that they exhibit so much dialectic interference.
I hope that answers your questions!
What sort of cables are covered in something that is not a polymer?
pacmi03 posted:dialectic interference
How sublimely true.
Harry posted:Bailyhill posted:Hello
I am curious about this burn in. I certainly can see that components change value as they burn in. What surprises me is that its possible to design the equipment and the assy processes so that as they burn in, the sound gets better. I would like to hear more about this from those who might have insight. How do they know that the sound will not get worse? Seems just as likely that the changes could go either way. Perhaps it has nothing to do with component values, but maybe stress relieving all the components and they behave more perfectly than in the first assembled state?
Bailyhill
I don't know where you live, but if you ever get an opportunity, a factory tour will answer all your questions and more. Speak to you dealer about booking.
I am in the US, so a factory tour is probably not going to happen. Been to the UK twice--very nice. I will await the launch of the ND555 here in the states and perhaps I will get an invite.
Bailyhill
Bailyhill posted:Hello
I am curious about this burn in. I certainly can see that components change value as they burn in. What surprises me is that its possible to design the equipment and the assy processes so that as they burn in, the sound gets better. I would like to hear more about this from those who might have insight. How do they know that the sound will not get worse? Seems just as likely that the changes could go either way. Perhaps it has nothing to do with component values, but maybe stress relieving all the components and they behave more perfectly than in the first assembled state?
Bailyhill
Thanks for the info on burn in. I have a follow up question about what folks do, once the system is burned in. Do the effects of burn in go away if you leave your system off? Overnight? Over Vaca? Do you leave all of it powered? all except the amps? What works best?
Bailyhill