ND555 Impressions

If you turn the system off it takes a little while to reach peak performance, ranging from a couple of hours to a couple of days, depending how long it’s been off. Nearly everyone leaves Naim equipment permanently switched on. 

hungryhalibut posted:

pacmi03 posted:

Bailyhill posted:

Hello

I am curious about this burn in.  I certainly can see that components change value as they burn in.  What surprises me is that its possible to design the equipment and the assy processes so that as they burn in, the sound gets better.  I would like to hear more about this from those who might have insight.  How do they know that the sound will not get worse?  Seems just as likely that the changes could go either way.  Perhaps it has nothing to do with component values, but maybe stress relieving all the components and they behave more perfectly than in the first assembled state?

Bailyhill

Burn in is really nothing more than electrolytic capacitors expanding.  When caps are new are tight and sometimes can even produce a hum sound.  When current is run through them they expand.  When they expand they sound more open, have a wider sound stage and have a warmer sound.  

All electronics, weather they are tube or solid state - even speakers, will sound better with about 300 hours of use.  The more capacitors, the longer the burn in required.  Cables do not need 'burn in' as that is a misnomer and not an accurate on at that.  Only really bad cables that use plastic, Teflon or other polymer based material sound better with a burn in due to the fact that they exhibit so much dialectic interference. 

I hope that answers your questions!

My Super Lumina cables took months to come on song. Are you saying that they are really bad cables, because they cost me a lot. Did I make a mistake?

No not at all, especially if you are going with DIN cables.  In the DIN world and for Naim gear, Super Lumina cables are the ultimate choice.  The SL cables use a Teflon base, which of the polymers, offer the best sound quality and durability.  The SL connector is also much better than the cheap plastic and metal connector that is used with the stock Naim cable.  People, even dealers, don't realize how important the connector is in determining sound quality.  Balanced XLR cables especially because XLR connectors use a lot of plastic.  Wool and/or cotton are much better dialectic material than Teflon but very few cables are out there that use that material. 

I've been testing cables for over 20 years and have found that a company called Omega Mikro makes the best audio cables and power cords on the planet, but they don't make any with DIN plugs.  They are also not as expensive as other brands.  However, they don't compromise sound quality for durability and they are a bit fragile.  

I’m confused. You said that only really bad cables with Teflon need burning in, which means that the Super Lumina is bad because it needs burning in, and it must be even worse because it uses Teflon, which I thought was only used in saucepans. And now you say it’s a good cable. I’m quite new to Naim and am getting in a right old muddle. 

hungryhalibut posted:

I’m quite new to Naim and am getting in a right old muddle. 

Don't feel bad.  We all have a learning curve.  But something tells me -- my instincts are -- that you'll get the hang of this eventually.

hungryhalibut posted:

If you turn the system off it takes a little while to reach peak performance, ranging from a couple of hours to a couple of days, depending how long it’s been off. Nearly everyone leaves Naim equipment permanently switched on. 

Thanks for that HungryHalibut

That is what I have been doing, except for my Class A power amp.  Its quite a space heater.  If I plan a serious listening session, I turn the power amp on in the day, and let it cook for the evening session.  Even though I have a power conditioner and pretty clean power, things do seem to sound better late in the eve.

Bailyhill

Who was who said, scarcasm is the lowest form of wit. Mind you, with my track record on here, it would be wrong of me to preach!

nigelb posted:

Who was who said, scarcasm is the lowest form of wit. Mind you, with my track record on here, it would be wrong of me to preach!

I had always heard that penis jokes were the lowest form of wit.

I use sarcasm not infrequently, but rarely tell a "dick joke" online.

French Rooster posted:

When the nds was produced, some choose it vs the cd555, thinking that it was very close to it, a bit different too, and more convenient.

Recently some owners of the cd555 decided to sell their cd555, to get the nd555. But no one of these new happy owners said than the nd555 was well ahead over the cd555.

There is no doubt that the nd555 is better than the nds, but I strongly doubt, given the informations above, that the nd555 is light years vs the nds.   It must be like cds3 vs cd555, very probably.

Some members here were at some demos, and found the differences not night and day.  Other were talking of “ another league “, “ 30% better”.   I am curious to hear it by myself, and see how better vs an nds the nd555  really is.

I stick by the ‘light years’ description. The presentation of the music is of a completely different order, whether 16bit or 24 bit, compared to either CD555 or NDS. As I think I said a long way back in this thread, the ND555 is actually value for money. 

David O'Higgins posted:

.. the ND555 is actually value for money. 

Well that is a relief!

Not got mine yet - Naim still fighting with the Anodizing Pixies over the cases - or something along those lines...

But it is nice to hear the hearty praise so far.
I agree it is a fine and rather exceptional device and at £20k (with single supply) or in my case £27k (two supplies) great value!

DB.

I saw the remark about value for money. And actually I have to agree to this, even while it sounds crazy at this amount of money. Every day I enjoy it.

That the ND555 is a great product I can easily accept, as I would the Statement amp. However, to describe either as ‘great value’ demonstrates a total disconnect from reality. £27k is, more or less, the average annual salary in the UK. I can understand some buyers wanting to be able to justify this type of expenditure, but ‘value for money’? Please...........!!

Timmo1341 posted:

That the ND555 is a great product I can easily accept, as I would the Statement amp. However, to describe either as ‘great value’ demonstrates a total disconnect from reality. £27k is, more or less, the average annual salary in the UK. I can understand some buyers wanting to be able to justify this type of expenditure, but ‘value for money’? Please...........!!

Maybe say the ND555 is a great value in High end audio!  That it does more then expected (sound quality wise)  in some of the new owners opinions . 

Of course High End Audio is really for the lucky few.  From the tryout I am getting at home of the ND555, it is a terrific audio product.  But it is pricey. 

I’m well paid, but a Nova and speakers is enough for me. When I can afford more, I think I’d struggle with the ethics of going the full nine years with everything at the 500 level, I have a family to consider along with those in need.

Mike Sullivan posted:

I’m well paid, but a Nova and speakers is enough for me. When I can afford more, I think I’d struggle with the ethics of going the full nine years with everything at the 500 level, I have a family to consider along with those in need.

I completely understand that . A complete Naim 500 series system with high end speakers and great cables is very very pricey and extravagant though you know people spend a lot on cars and boats, other expensive hobbies , and if they do not have kids at home any longer it is different deal.  The stereo hobby can get out of hand no doubt. I know a guy who spends every last extra dime on antique cars.  That is his deal.  You would think one antique car would be enough. It is not.  You are doing the right thing by your family Mike. And you have a very nice system. There are people out there who would why you spent so much on your system. 

I have bought things for £1 which were a waste of money. I hate wasting money. The ND555 is worth every penny. To me. To anyone else, I really couldn't speculate. We're all different.

Mike Sullivan posted:

I’m well paid, but a Nova and speakers is enough for me. When I can afford more, I think I’d struggle with the ethics of going the full nine years with everything at the 500 level, I have a family to consider along with those in need.

Hifi is a balancing act between wants and needs, present moment pleasure vs long term financial planning for ourselves and loved ones.

Reading this thread there is a palpable excitement about the ND555. It is hard not to want one. However if we have a system that swings and is musically communicative , it might be best to smell the roses and enjoy what we have. Like Mike I could spend yet more money on this hobby, but personally I have difficulty justifying it right now.

So well done Mike . You are a wise man.

When we got the compensation from my accident in June, I thought long and hard about getting an ND555 and a 552. The cost, with extra wires, shelves and mains arrangements, would be about £35,000. In the end I decided it was disproportionate and instead put the money away to help the boys with deposits, should they ever buy houses. Besides, my current system is more than good enough for me, and I love listening to music every day. 

But it’s wrong to make judgements on others. Comparing items to minimum wages or whatever is not helpful. For the price of our systems, which none of us really need, think about how many wells could be installed in Africa to provide clean water supplies and prevent thousands of children dying from gastro intestinal infections. If we did think like that we’d perhaps never buy anything. It’s all about balance. People do what they want. And that’s only right. 

David O'Higgins posted:

French Rooster posted:

When the nds was produced, some choose it vs the cd555, thinking that it was very close to it, a bit different too, and more convenient.

Recently some owners of the cd555 decided to sell their cd555, to get the nd555. But no one of these new happy owners said than the nd555 was well ahead over the cd555.

There is no doubt that the nd555 is better than the nds, but I strongly doubt, given the informations above, that the nd555 is light years vs the nds.   It must be like cds3 vs cd555, very probably.

Some members here were at some demos, and found the differences not night and day.  Other were talking of “ another league “, “ 30% better”.   I am curious to hear it by myself, and see how better vs an nds the nd555  really is.

I stick by the ‘light years’ description. The presentation of the music is of a completely different order, whether 16bit or 24 bit, compared to either CD555 or NDS. As I think I said a long way back in this thread, the ND555 is actually value for money. 

Light years would be for me as comparing a cd5i vs cd555.   An enormous difference.   But perhaps it is like that.   But for now i doubt.    Anyway i am glad you enjoy your nd555 , it’s the most important.    

Timmo1341 posted:

That the ND555 is a great product I can easily accept, as I would the Statement amp. However, to describe either as ‘great value’ demonstrates a total disconnect from reality. £27k is, more or less, the average annual salary in the UK. I can understand some buyers wanting to be able to justify this type of expenditure, but ‘value for money’? Please...........!!

I think you have a point, but at the same time miss my point on great value. 

1. It's luxury industry, so value is a relative definition anyhow.

2. I talk about value as I look at the relative additional investment I needed to make as an NDS owner and how much more musical enjoyment I get back out of the investment.

3. Yes it is more expensive if I compare it with the top end Linn player f.i. but at the same time I invested in the Naim system as I prefer the Naim sound over the Linn sound. I am not sure if the ND555 is better, equal or less good than the Klimax DS.

4. It's within the  context of my Naim investment the only logical step I could take. I could have added a second p.s. to my NDS, but I guess it doesn't sound as engaging as a ND555 with one p.s., I could have invested an a bit less and upgrade my NAP500 to DR and again I don't belief it would bring the same level of performance increase (while not arguing that an upgrade wouldn't be a wise next step for me).

So for my personal situation - it is value for money.

Mike Sullivan posted:

I’m well paid, but a Nova and speakers is enough for me. When I can afford more, I think I’d struggle with the ethics of going the full nine years with everything at the 500 level, I have a family to consider along with those in need.

If I would have a family I would follow the same idea. It all depends on ones personal situation and how important certain aspects of live are for you.

hungryhalibut posted:

It’s all about balance. People do what they want. And that’s only right. 

And of course, people make donations to good causes, sometimes in excess of frivolous purchases over the course of a year. They come in here to talk HiFi and music, not about their donations to charity, gifts to the needy, support of family and friends,  or volunteer work. 

Agree with your points above Bert. Well argued, I thought. 

I would add one thing about the use of the term "investment". We all use the word to mean slightly different things in different contexts. So with my pedant hat on, I'll just say that I don't consider HiFi to be an investment of any kind. Expenditure to bring me happiness? Tick. Something that won't be totally worthless when my children inherit it, or may even bring them happiness if they take it away and use it? Tick. Something into which I put money for a return greater than the principle, which can work to give me an income/pension? No. 

pacmi03 posted:

hungryhalibut posted:

pacmi03 posted:

Bailyhill posted:

Hello

I am curious about this burn in.  I certainly can see that components change value as they burn in.  What surprises me is that its possible to design the equipment and the assy processes so that as they burn in, the sound gets better.  I would like to hear more about this from those who might have insight.  How do they know that the sound will not get worse?  Seems just as likely that the changes could go either way.  Perhaps it has nothing to do with component values, but maybe stress relieving all the components and they behave more perfectly than in the first assembled state?

Bailyhill

Burn in is really nothing more than electrolytic capacitors expanding.  When caps are new are tight and sometimes can even produce a hum sound.  When current is run through them they expand.  When they expand they sound more open, have a wider sound stage and have a warmer sound.  

All electronics, weather they are tube or solid state - even speakers, will sound better with about 300 hours of use.  The more capacitors, the longer the burn in required.  Cables do not need 'burn in' as that is a misnomer and not an accurate on at that.  Only really bad cables that use plastic, Teflon or other polymer based material sound better with a burn in due to the fact that they exhibit so much dialectic interference. 

I hope that answers your questions!

My Super Lumina cables took months to come on song. Are you saying that they are really bad cables, because they cost me a lot. Did I make a mistake?

No not at all, especially if you are going with DIN cables.  In the DIN world and for Naim gear, Super Lumina cables are the ultimate choice.  The SL cables use a Teflon base, which of the polymers, offer the best sound quality and durability.  The SL connector is also much better than the cheap plastic and metal connector that is used with the stock Naim cable.  People, even dealers, don't realize how important the connector is in determining sound quality.  Balanced XLR cables especially because XLR connectors use a lot of plastic.  Wool and/or cotton are much better dialectic material than Teflon but very few cables are out there that use that material. 

I've been testing cables for over 20 years and have found that a company called Omega Mikro makes the best audio cables and power cords on the planet, but they don't make any with DIN plugs.  They are also not as expensive as other brands.  However, they don't compromise sound quality for durability and they are a bit fragile.  

Ah, so it's your opinion, then. Sorry, I thought you spoke with something resembling authority... 

pacmi03 posted:

 

pacmi03 posted:

 Teflon or other polymer based material sound better with a burn in due to the fact that they exhibit so much dialectic interference. 

I've been testing cables for over 20 years and have found that a company called Omega Mikro makes the best audio cables and power cords on the planet, but they don't make any with DIN plugs.  They are also not as expensive as other brands.  However, they don't compromise sound quality for durability and they are a bit fragile.  

What is dielectric interference? I am quite familiar with dielectrics and their relevance in canles, but that is a term I’ve never come across.

You mention paper and wool as dielectrics (sorry, lost in the above snips): both are hygroscopic and susceptible to humidity, perhaps wool more so than paper, and that can make for instability in real world use. Aside from the relative permissivity increasing substantially with moisture content, I seem to recall that the change is non-linear with frequency, possibly in the audio frequency range. For a cable made with such a dielectric its cladding and, far more challenging, its plugs would have to afford perfect hermetic sealing from the environment in order to ensure a consistent and stable product with a good lifetime. 

Leaving aside the obvious exaggeration suggesting you’ve tested all cables on the plannet, could you please clarify how you have tested, and if by listening, in what system(s), as clearly different gear can interact differently with different cables.

Gosh this is a depressing thread, a roller coaster of emotions, egos, depression, elation, over analysis.

I thought HiFi was fun, I did like Bert start.