LINN LP12 Majik vs Naim NDX

Important that the LP12 is on the right platform and set up correctly etc.

But, thinking about this differently, why not focus on the source you prefer and consider an NDX2 or a used NDS?

You’ve just spent £3k on a perfectly fine record player. Advice to upgrade motor etc immediately is ridiculous.

a) your cartridge isn’t yet run in. Also, when run in a cartridge needs a 20 min play to warm up.

b) volume output is much lower than your NDX so you do need to turn the volume up a good deal higher for the LP12 (all turntables output at 1.5v instead of 2.5v for digital)

c) If the above doesn’t sort it then your LP12 hasn’t been set up correctly, get someone to do it for you. The Majik should be astonishing, I’ve had one.

JoexNaim posted:

 

c) If the above doesn’t sort it then your LP12 hasn’t been set up correctly, get someone to do it for you. The Majik should be astonishing, I’ve had one.

Because it is a foregone conclusion that vinyl is better and correctly set up, an LP12's superiority is self evident?

Absolutely, anyone who can’t hear it has my sympathies.

Joex - As a user who (ultimately) prefers vinyl over digital I disagree with you.   Whilst there are no absolutes the fact is that digital sources generally now render excellent reproduction.   Just because the OP has a TT let alone the most overhyped example doesn’t in itself mean that it will necessarily sound superior to his network player.  

Regards,

Lindsay

My advice to the thread starter was how to sort his LP12 and to give it a chance. It is a fine piece of kit, bettered by the recently introduced Technics, but none the less, when run-in and fettled properly, way better than the disappointment evident in KENT3888’s first post.

Any advice to swap arms, cartridges, motors is fatuous are these are upgrades only to be considered when you’re delighted with your LP12 in the first place.

Streaming, MQA files have my stomach churning. Each to their own. Like Radio 3 HD though, that’s good! Lol

Hold on I stream from Tidal the whole time on my Qb - it’s excellent, of course it doesn’t have the gravitas of the main system but everyone who visits comments very positively.  

However,  I do agree that the OP should not throw more money at the LP12 until a qualified dealer has had a good look at the set-up.  I’m wondering though if this is a cartridge/phono stage issue?  In my experience a critical factor.  

Regards,

Lindsay

agree totally Lindsay,

Kent - I see from your profile you are in KL, i know [@mention:1566878603906177] has visited KL and worked on some decks out there, i would certainly speak on email to Linn specialist before any action

and when a LP12 is on song there not much that can touch it!

Ran my LP12 Majik with the £200 Rega fono and it was a perfect match, lucky I guess. The issue I always had with LP12 was correct setup is an art-form and far too variable at that high price point. My local dealer was so bad I ended up taking mine across the water for an expert to fettle and the Ultimate reason I let it go.

If you get it sorted to exact spec KENT and you’re still not happy; spend no more money and move it on, would be my advice. Could be it’s not for you and that’s fine, you gave it a whirl!

As has been mentioned if you are testing your LP12 with a not very well mastered or pressed record (most modern reissues) against an NDX playing a very good high res file then I’m not surprised by your findings 

Could be a cart phono stage mismatch 

Hi Kent,

Here is some friendly advice from afar.     Turntables in general, and certainly the LP 12 in particular, require much more careful set up than your NDX- and most digital sources overall.    Since you are new to owning a Linn, it may help to spend some time with your dealer going over the day to day use of the LP12.    Cleaning records helps enormously, particularly if you have, or plan to have used LP's for your listening pleasure.    Even a good inexpensive dry record brush can be a big help in day to day use.    Having your LP 12 absolutely level is crucial to it's performance and the stand or furniture you have placed your Linn on can also have a large role in the achieved sound of the table.     The Majik LP 12 package does not include the popular inexpensive Linn accessory the Trampoline 2 baseboard and this product can be essential in some installations, but not in all cases.    It really depends what you are placing your Linn on.     If your tracking force has been set too lightly, that will rob the LP 12 of some of the tonal richness it is capable of reproducing.      I urge anyone with a nice turntable to invest in a good stylus force gauge.    There are many on the market.

There may be some more challenging issues others have written about above which relate to how well or how poorly your dealer has set up your LP 12.    When they ship from the Linn factory, a new LP 12 is, in essence, just a carefully packed set of parts and the process of how they are assembled makes a big difference.    Really big.    Before we start to castigate your dealer, who may very well have set up your table nicely, it is also important to note that the LP 12, even though hugely popular and iconic, is not everyone's cup of tea.    You might try to spend more time with your dealer in their store to hear more records on their demo LP 12 or LP's so you can better understand this table's style of sound for yourself.

The Majik LP 12 is very much a Linn product.    I disagree respectively, with the comment made by the user who calls himself  "The French Rooster" above.    Yes, the Majik LP 12 does include a Project tone-arm and many listeners will prefer other tone-arms, particularly higher priced examples.   As he notes in his comment, a better cartridge may also very helpful, but this is not the first place to start with a brand new LP 12 and a cartridge you probably have not put enough playing time on to have heard the Linn Adikt MM cartridge at it's best.    In my experience a better tone-arm is far more likely to improve your bass performance than another cartridge.

Even if the two sources required a similar expenditure to you, it is not correct to assume that they will sound the same.     One of the great luxuries of having a nice digital source alongside an LP 12 is that you can enjoy two or more formats at home.    Over time you will be better equipped to map their style of sound and your preferences for a given source, but this is very challenging for anyone new to owning their first high end system, even a very good one like yours.

Good luck,

Bruce

How do you A\B test compare NDX to linn lp12? 

The release of the record (which determined the quality of the printing ) of the vinyl you use will have the biggest effect on the sound of the LP12. Before you twick, change and put more money into your TT you should be sure about the vinyl quality you compare with.

I mean for example - a Beatles record printed in the 80’s will sound less good then a striming of download made from the last Strereo remaster made in 2012 for the same record. You must be sure you compare the same or close to it mix and master of the music.

A good Linn LP12 has no mercy when it plays bad quality records.

shahar posted:

How do you A\B test compare NDX to linn lp12? 

The release of the record (which determined the quality of the printing ) of the vinyl you use will have the biggest effect on the sound of the LP12. Before you twick, change and put more money into your TT you should be sure about the vinyl quality you compare with.

I mean for example - a Beatles record printed in the 80’s will sound less good then a striming of download made from the last Strereo remaster made in 2012 for the same record. You must be sure you compare the same or close to it mix and master of the music.

A good Linn LP12 has no mercy when it plays bad quality records.

Yep, completely agreed.

Ok, a few points:

1. Do NOT expect vinyl and digital to sound the same (unless the digital file has been made by ripping an LP). The vinyl medium has more inherent compromises and so simply is different, compounded of course if the version of the recording is different, which it can be. Some people prefer the vinyl sound, but in general that tends to be mostly the people who became accustomed to that medium before hearing good digital. 
2. Upgrading immediately seems to me to be to be throwing good money after bad unless you are completely sure you like the sound of vinyl. What you have should be capable of giving at least a pretty good representation - yes, better components may improve certain aspects - but so can better digital components against the NDX.
3. Vinyl in general has more to set up correctly for it to play right, and it seems the LP12 may be more so than others. There have been some detailed suggestions on here regarding setup, but I suspect that in Kuala Lampur your dealer is less supportive than many in the UK are accustomed to, and that you may be on your own. If that is the case it may be helpful if people could give you detail as to how to check thingg yourself, if not obvious or straightforward.
4. some people have talked about the quality of disks - that certainly will have an effect on the sound - exactly as the quality of the digital mastering can have a significant effect on the sound of digital, so hearing a range of recordings makes sense before concluding what you think of it - however, if it doesn’t sound as good with whatever recordings you want to listen to, or that are available to you, then whether it might sound better with other things is of no relevance.

All the best with it.

Actually, reflecting on it, if you can track one down, a digital file ripped (on a top flight turntable setup)  from an LP you have or can obtain would give you the  best idea of how your TT compares - I have come across them, but not sure how easy to track down

bdnyc posted:

Hi Kent,

Here is some friendly advice from afar.     Turntables in general, and certainly the LP 12 in particular, require much more careful set up than your NDX- and most digital sources overall.    Since you are new to owning a Linn, it may help to spend some time with your dealer going over the day to day use of the LP12.    Cleaning records helps enormously, particularly if you have, or plan to have used LP's for your listening pleasure.    Even a good inexpensive dry record brush can be a big help in day to day use.    Having your LP 12 absolutely level is crucial to it's performance and the stand or furniture you have placed your Linn on can also have a large role in the achieved sound of the table.     The Majik LP 12 package does not include the popular inexpensive Linn accessory the Trampoline 2 baseboard and this product can be essential in some installations, but not in all cases.    It really depends what you are placing your Linn on.     If your tracking force has been set too lightly, that will rob the LP 12 of some of the tonal richness it is capable of reproducing.      I urge anyone with a nice turntable to invest in a good stylus force gauge.    There are many on the market.

There may be some more challenging issues others have written about above which relate to how well or how poorly your dealer has set up your LP 12.    When they ship from the Linn factory, a new LP 12 is, in essence, just a carefully packed set of parts and the process of how they are assembled makes a big difference.    Really big.    Before we start to castigate your dealer, who may very well have set up your table nicely, it is also important to note that the LP 12, even though hugely popular and iconic, is not everyone's cup of tea.    You might try to spend more time with your dealer in their store to hear more records on their demo LP 12 or LP's so you can better understand this table's style of sound for yourself.

The Majik LP 12 is very much a Linn product.    I disagree respectively, with the comment made by the user who calls himself  "The French Rooster" above.    Yes, the Majik LP 12 does include a Project tone-arm and many listeners will prefer other tone-arms, particularly higher priced examples.   As he notes in his comment, a better cartridge may also very helpful, but this is not the first place to start with a brand new LP 12 and a cartridge you probably have not put enough playing time on to have heard the Linn Adikt MM cartridge at it's best.    In my experience a better tone-arm is far more likely to improve your bass performance than another cartridge.

Even if the two sources required a similar expenditure to you, it is not correct to assume that they will sound the same.     One of the great luxuries of having a nice digital source alongside an LP 12 is that you can enjoy two or more formats at home.    Over time you will be better equipped to map their style of sound and your preferences for a given source, but this is very challenging for anyone new to owning their first high end system, even a very good one like yours.

Good luck,

Bruce

 

the motor, power supply and tonearm are from project.  the turntable is linn.  so ok, a linn/project deck.   

"the motor, power supply and tonearm are from project.  the turntable is linn.  so ok, a linn/project deck"

Tone arm, yes obviously, but power supply appears to be Linn's own design and production:

Motor itself is possibly from a third party (as is common for most TT manufacturers), but I don't know for sure. I don't think it's from Project.

i read wrong informations on the net,  thanks for claryfing Psan.

Innocent Bystander posted:

Ok, a few points:

.............. Some people prefer the vinyl sound, but in general that tends to be mostly the people who became accustomed to that medium before hearing good digital.

What is your evidence for the above statement?

Innocent Bystander is banging always the same in turntables threads.  A “digital mission “.....

Jonn posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

Ok, a few points:

.............. Some people prefer the vinyl sound, but in general that tends to be mostly the people who became accustomed to that medium before hearing good digital.

What is your evidence for the above statement?

Observation of responses in discussions on the forum.

French Rooster posted:

Innocent Bystander is banging always the same in turntables threads.  A “digital mission “.....

If you read my contributions in various threads you  will note that I generally acknowledge that preference for vinyl or digital is a matter of taste,and that I respect that preference in those who feel that way.

I have also aknowledged, and it is a very significant point, that the actual sound quality depends on the recording/mastering and that they are often not the same for the different media, so of course if digital has a lousy mastering it can sound worse than vinyl - and vice versa.

If I have a “mission” as you put it, it is to point out how good digital has become, because the uninitiated reading some posts could be led to believe digital is ‘the spawn of the devil’ and that vinyl is the only real medium worth considering, so some balance is required.

It is an interesting conundrum - why there are people who prefer vinyl.  Technically, vinyl cannot be 'right' in the sense of re-creating the same sound waves that were presented to the recording microphones.  Of course, none of the recording/playback systems we currently have can do that, but vinyl has some fairly serious and inherent problems that, ultimately, cannot be overcome.  And yet some people prefer it - and apparently that includes younger people, AIUI, given who it is buying vinyl records these days.  On this forum, of course, I would expect that the majority of people grew up with vinyl, so most of those of use who prefer vinyl will be people who became accustomed to that medium before hearing good digital.  So going by this forum's membership will skew the correlation.  

I can only suppose that it is similar to those who prefer slightly yellow artificial lighting (as from tungsten bulbs) to bluer LED bulbs (though in this case, neither is more 'right' than the other).

My experience is that good digital is far better than good vinyl - richer, fuller, no hiss and pop and crackle, better bass, no change in frequency response at different points in the music, no print-through on adjacent parts of the record. Other people differ.  But it would be interesting to do a blind test of a good, high-res digital recording of a vinyl playback compared with the analogue playback.  I would predict that there would be no preference either way in such a situation.

at least it is my impression....