LINN LP12 Majik vs Naim NDX

Innocent Bystander posted:

Jonn posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

Ok, a few points:

.............. Some people prefer the vinyl sound, but in general that tends to be mostly the people who became accustomed to that medium before hearing good digital.

What is your evidence for the above statement?

Observation of responses in discussions on the forum.

If by "the forum" you mean this forum, can you give examples to support your generalisation?

Not that I'm particularly bothered but your original statement just appeared to be selective in support of your own view which is contradictory to my own experience.

Innocent Bystander posted:

Jonn posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

Ok, a few points:

.............. Some people prefer the vinyl sound, but in general that tends to be mostly the people who became accustomed to that medium before hearing good digital.

What is your evidence for the above statement?

Observation of responses in discussions on the forum.

???? Innocent Bystander,....Here I can say that our perceptions and experiences differ markedly.
Turntables require a lot of knowledge in installation and optimization,to get the last out of the soundquality.

But a digital source requires much more of this,..to get the last out of the soundquality.
It is more unknown,and also difficult parameters for digital playback.

/Peder ????

Peder posted:

 

???? Innocent Bystander,....Here I can say that our perceptions and experiences differ markedly.
Turntables require a lot of knowledge in installation and optimization,to get the last  out of the soundquality.

But a digital source requires much more of this,..to get the last oit of the soundquality.
It is more unknown,and also difficult parameters for digital playback.

/Peder ????

Really?  LP12 is famous for being difficult and fiddly to set up, for going out of 'tune', for many esoteric fettling to get the best out of them.  and none of the overcomes the built-in problems of vinyl reproduction.  Digital generally is plug and play.

Jonn posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

Jonn posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

Ok, a few points:

.............. Some people prefer the vinyl sound, but in general that tends to be mostly the people who became accustomed to that medium before hearing good digital.

What is your evidence for the above statement?

Observation of responses in discussions on the forum.

If by "the forum" you mean this forum, can you give examples to support your generalisation?

Not that I'm particularly bothered but your original statement just appeared to be selective in support of your own view which is contradictory to my own experience.

Beachcomer has made a pertinent observation in this regard.

Your impression my be different from mine, but I certainly am not going to spend time trawling through hundreds of posts in dozens of threads. But please feel free to do that yourself if you want to provide evidence that your “experience” as you put it is a numerically correct view. In the meantime we will just have to agree to differ on the impressions we have.

slightly off orginal post on vinyl vs digital - but for my two penth

I have heard at the other factory in Glasgow - thier DSM Kilmax and thier own LP12 - Digital was superb, the LP12 was better and more detailed

recently went to [@mention:1566878603906177] event with 500 system into Kudos Titans T808 with LP12 Klimax Radikal & Uphorik II - nothing short of sublime!!!

lets see how the ND555 fairs - now really off topic -- Apologies!

Beachcomber posted:

It is an interesting conundrum - why there are people who prefer vinyl.  Technically, vinyl cannot be 'right' in the sense of re-creating the same sound waves that were presented to the recording microphones.  Of course, none of the recording/playback systems we currently have can do that, but vinyl has some fairly serious and inherent problems that, ultimately, cannot be overcome.  And yet some people prefer it - and apparently that includes younger people, AIUI, given who it is buying vinyl records these days.  

.

Regarding young people at least, it seems to me to be a fashion thing and nothing to do with the sound. One of my sons says he wants a turntable “because its cool”, a couple of his friends having one (I know one is an Ion, that well-renowned high end make). Same son wants a valve amp, for the same reason “it looks cool”, with no interest in the sound quality “provided it doesn’t sound c**p” (his words).

Peder posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

Jonn posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

Ok, a few points:

.............. Some people prefer the vinyl sound, but in general that tends to be mostly the people who became accustomed to that medium before hearing good digital.

What is your evidence for the above statement?

Observation of responses in discussions on the forum.

???? Innocent Bystander,....Here I can say that our perceptions and experiences differ markedly.
Turntables require a lot of knowledge in installation and optimization,to get the last out of the soundquality.

But a digital source requires much more of this,..to get the last out of the soundquality.
It is more unknown,and also difficult parameters for digital playback.

/Peder ????

I disagree. E.g you could go out and buy, say, a Melco and ND555, or Innuos Zenith and Dave, plug them together and to your amp, downoad some albums, and play, and sound excellent.

There is rather more to a TT source than that, even the simplest - and this thread is about an LP12 that  many people have pointed out to the OP needs a lot of setting up.

Beachcomber posted:

Peder posted:

 

???? Innocent Bystander,....Here I can say that our perceptions and experiences differ markedly.
Turntables require a lot of knowledge in installation and optimization,to get the last  out of the soundquality.

But a digital source requires much more of this,..to get the last oit of the soundquality.
It is more unknown,and also difficult parameters for digital playback.

/Peder ????

Really?  LP12 is famous for being difficult and fiddly to set up, for going out of 'tune', for many esoteric fettling to get the best out of them.  and none of the overcomes the built-in problems of vinyl reproduction.  Digital generally is plug and play.

lp12 is known for being difficult to set up, but all turntables are not like that.  

For digital plug and play,  it is not always the case.  For me, i took a lot of months to transform a bit boring nds in a boogie machine:  find the good switch ( cisco 2960), the right lan cables, a linear ps on my serve....or even install the 4.6 update with some difficulties.

In general, for vinyl, the most difficult is the set up of the arm and cart.

French Rooster posted:

Beachcomber posted:

Peder posted:

 ..

lp12 is known for being difficult to set up, but all turntables are not like that.  

For digital plug and play,  it is not always the case.  For me, i took a lot of months to transform a bit boring nds in a boogie machine:  find the good switch ( cisco 2960), the right lan cables, a linear ps on my serve....or even install the 4.6 update with some difficulties.

In general, for vinyl, the most difficult is the set up of the arm and cart.

Many people have no trouble with networks and get excellent sound - but all too often it seems thst something causes someone problems, it seenpms occasionally it is a real pain to sort out. And that is why I advocate store-renderers, with no network involved.

Innocent Bystander posted:

Jonn posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

Jonn posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

Ok, a few points:

.............. Some people prefer the vinyl sound, but in general that tends to be mostly the people who became accustomed to that medium before hearing good digital.

What is your evidence for the above statement?

Observation of responses in discussions on the forum.

If by "the forum" you mean this forum, can you give examples to support your generalisation?

Not that I'm particularly bothered but your original statement just appeared to be selective in support of your own view which is contradictory to my own experience.

Beachcomer has made a pertinent observation in this regard.

Your impression my be different from mine, but I certainly am not going to spend time trawling through hundreds of posts in dozens of threads. But please feel free to do that yourself if you want to provide evidence that your “experience” as you put it is a numerically correct view. In the meantime we will just have to agree to differ on the impressions we have.

But of course you must have spent time trawling through a lot of posts and threads in order to  make a statement that contains a generalisation and therefore have the evidence  (I presume you’re aware of scientific method ), so to suggest that I might do the same is disingenuous, especially as I have not claimed that my view is “numerically correct “ as you put it.

Sincerely Innocent Bystander, with no offense to you, i confirm that in a lot of turntables threads, you invest a lot of energy to try to prove that digital is more true and accurate vs analog, always with scientific language that is difficult to deny.  So a lot of turntables debates are turning in non ending digital vs turntable sound.   

Jonn posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

Jonn posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

Jonn posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

Ok, a few points:

.............. Some people prefer the vinyl sound, but in general that tends to be mostly the people who became accustomed to that medium before hearing good digital.

What is your evidence for the above statement?

Observation of responses in discussions on the forum.

If by "the forum" you mean this forum, can you give examples to support your generalisation?

Not that I'm particularly bothered but your original statement just appeared to be selective in support of your own view which is contradictory to my own experience.

Beachcomer has made a pertinent observation in this regard.

Your impression my be different from mine, but I certainly am not going to spend time trawling through hundreds of posts in dozens of threads. But please feel free to do that yourself if you want to provide evidence that your “experience” as you put it is a numerically correct view. In the meantime we will just have to agree to differ on the impressions we have.

But of course you must have spent time trawling through a lot of posts and threads in order to  make a statement that contains a generalisation and therefore have the evidence  (I presume you’re aware of scientific method ), so to suggest that I might do the same is disingenuous, especially as I have not claimed that my view is “numerically correct “ as you put it. 

 

 

With apologies to the OP for this continuing 

Where exactly did I say my view was “numerically correct”?  On the contrary, I freely provided clarification that my original statement is my impression, and by way of explanation that was not gained trawling through lot of posts and threads as you suggest, but simply reading them as they have been posted over time, and without methodically recording them, which is why it is an impression.

As for my ‘suggesting’ that you might seek evidence (actually mine was more of an open invitation to do so if you wish to press the point),  that was because you indicated that your experience is contrary to my impression, i.e  that of the people who prefer vinyl it is not the case that they are mostly people who became accustomed to that medium before hearing good digital - meaning that in your experience at least as many people who prefer vinyl had first heard good digital before they became accustomed to vinyl. My invitation was in case you might want to verify whether your experience, which I take to mean direct contact you have had with people, is consistent with a wider sample of people.

French Rooster posted:

Sincerely Innocent Bystander,you invest a lot of energy to try to prove that digital is more true and accurate vs analog, always with scientific language that is difficult to deny.  

 

Already here,..Innocent Bystander has lost the debate,why use such a language.
It is absolutely irrelevant.!!

Such a language,and argumentation technology,..audio engineers have tried to impress with for decades.....nonsense.!!
◾ It is the result,..of a well-installed and optimized music system that you shall listen critical to...."As Simply As That,..Just Listen ".

/Peder ????

French Rooster posted:

Sincerely Innocent Bystander, with no offense to you, i confirm that in a lot of turntables threads, you invest a lot of energy to try to prove that digital is more true and accurate vs analog, always with scientific language that is difficult to deny.  So a lot of turntables debates are turning in non ending digital vs turntable sound.   

 

I do not try to prove, and I do not need to prove. Please read what I do write -  yes, I believe (and I am far from being the only one) vinyl is more flawed than digital, with the qualification I stated earlier. And also as I indicated earlier, I accept and respect that some people prefer the sound of vinyl. And I’m not sure that it is by any means in a lot of turntable threads, but rather in a lot of threads where the two media are discussed, this being a case in point where the OP expressed surprise that his TT doesn’t sound as good as his streamer - so I offer explanation (and, if you look, also suggestions to consider for his TT)

Peder posted:

French Rooster posted:

Sincerely Innocent Bystander,you invest a lot of energy to try to prove that digital is more true and accurate vs analog, always with scientific language that is difficult to deny.  

 

Already here,..Innocent Bystander has lost the debate,why use such a language.
It is absolutely irrelevant.!!

Such a language,and argumentation technology,..audio engineers have tried to impress with for decades.....nonsense.!!
◾ It is the result,..of a well-installed and optimized music system that you shall listen critical to...."As Simply As That,..Just Listen ".

/Peder ????

To both Peder and French Rooster, pease, pray, show me exactly what you consider to be overly scientific language that I have used in this thread?

With the greatest of respect I think you should take this digital vs vinyl argument to The Padded Cell and get this thread back to trying to help the OP who has spent a large sum of money and is unhappy with what he's got for it. It can't be good for the OP to see their issue ignored, so let's bring it back on track.

I'd like to ask a few things of the OP (with apologies if you've answered these and I've missed them):

1) Are you happy with the sound of your NDX ? Could you live with the sound of the NDX as your sole source ?

2) Are you happy with the sound of the Linn as a stand alone (i.e. not compared to the NDX) ? Could you live with the sound of the Linn as your sole source ?

3) Is there a reason you expect the Linn to sound superior to the NDX ? Some form of previous experience for example ?

4) Can you give us an idea of the non monetary scale of the issue, how many records do you have vs how many albums ripped. If the number of records is low and rips high it might be best to try to ask the dealer to take back the Linn, or do a commission sale of it for you as I imagine you, like me, can't aford to just write off the cost of the Linn and stuff it into the loft as "lessons learned".

there was a similar thread some months ago, where a member wanted to have a vinyl source that matches his ndx/hugo combo.  He finally bought a rega rp10/apheta/aria and was very pleased, thinking even that now the turntable’s sound was better than ndx/ hugo.

I am quite sure that the linn majik, a bit lifted by better arm ( like linn akito) or better cart/ phono pre combo, can surpass the ndx.

But it is better before to verify at a dealer place, before invest. And of course check the set up of the linn before too.

The other possibility is that the op prefers the sound of digital, like Innocent Bystander, and there is no problem with that.    The truth is our satisfaction.

The OP has probably run off by now ????

Guinnless posted:

The OP has probably run off by now ????

 

he might do now!

having heard a lot of LP12's the off the shelf Majik deck will never be able to give more music than an NDX and owning both NDX & LP12 I can say this from experience

my LP12 is Kore, Cirkus,, Khan, Lingo 4, Trampolin 2, Tranquillity, Ittock VIII with DV20X cartridge so in Linn terms Not Klimax level, but I feel you would need to be at least at Akrucate level with deck to surpass what the NDX is capable of  in sound,  sorry but that’s my view

Majik is a good but not great deck, but for the same £££££ you can get a lot more than an off the shelf LP12

Just wish OP has asked on this forum for members experience before spending his money

Guinnless posted:

The OP has probably run off by now ????

This thread really highlights for me how audio buying cultures can vary.

I didn't look at the OP's profile, so didn't see KL until someone pointed it out. From the information provided it seems that money has just been taken for the Linn, no attempt made to see if the customer is happy. But that may be the KL culture.

antony d posted:

Guinnless posted:

The OP has probably run off by now ????

 

he might do now!

having heard a lot of LP12's the off the shelf Majik deck will never be able to give more music than an NDX and owning both NDX & LP12 I can say this from experience

my LP12 is Kore, Cirkus,, Khan, Lingo 4, Trampolin 2, Tranquillity, Ittock VIII with DV20X cartridge so in Linn terms Not Klimax level, but I feel you would need to be at least at Akrucate level with deck to surpass what the NDX is capable of  in sound,  sorry but that’s my view

Majik is a good but not great deck, but for the same £££££ you can get a lot more than an off the shelf LP12

Just wish OP has asked on this forum for members experience before spending his money

I'm still following this topic, just that I'm tied up with work for the passed days.

I've auditioned the Magic/Majik deck at the dealer with a simple demo and it sounds good to my ears. The dealer is using a simple KEF bookshelves and some integrated amp, so I can't expect much from the audition session.

After dealer came setting up and running for a week and more, I then start to get my NDX to stream the same album for what I'm playing on the LP12. This is where I get to really hear the difference between these 2 source. 

I think you are right that the LP12 needs to be at least at Akurate to be on par or Surpass what the NDX is capable in reproducing. I'm not going to do any upgrades in short period of time in view the Magic is still rather new.

Kent 3888

In the meantime enjoy the system and  moreover the music!  the cartridge will need to run in, i am sure the deck beds in ricely,

it does prove one thing how just what a good source the NDX even with out PSU

antony d posted:

Kent 3888

In the meantime enjoy the system and  moreover the music!  the cartridge will need to run in, i am sure the deck beds in ricely,

it does prove one thing how just what a good source the NDX even with out PSU

 

 

 

 

Off topic, Yes indeed I'm very impressed with NDX even without PSU, my cd5si is lying unused at the rack. I rip my discs into NAS and playback with NDX, will soon retire the CDP. Yes I know the 5si is unfair comparison to the NDX =P

“Digital is the spawn of the Devil” is the best line I have read all day! Thanks IB.

Stu.