Harbeth, Sonus Faber- speakerhunt

Hi Stover,

Interesting challenge. The Sonus Faber Olympica are indeed wonderful loudspeakers. I had them (in fact the Olympuva III) on my shortlist when I was lloki,g for new spekers recently. In the end I choose the Focal Kanta 2 which Inpreferred over the Sonus Fber since they were to,my ears the better mtch with my Naum kit. The SF might be slightly warmer, bur the Kanata’s were stringer in detail and 3d imging. Worth a try

iver

Hi Iver

Focal will be a part of this project/ search, they are available for audition and maybe homeaudition. Thanks for your input.

S

Two experiments you may like to try with the Harbeths (I'm sure Alan Shaw would want to put a contract on me for these suggestions)...

To improve the 'speed' and tightness of the bass you could try blocking the reflex ports, and, a little more extreme, remove the internal cabinet acoustic damping then reintroduce damping to suit your taste in speed / colouration balance.

(Continuing the humour / sarcasm theme...)

Of course they all sound the same, that's why so many NAP500 owners are rushing out to pick up old Amstrad amplifiers from junk shops, and when they've all been snapped up the ex-500 owners will just have to slum it using 1980's Japanese mudi systems as power amps. 

Totem sky maybe   ?

I have Sonus Faber Liuto Floorstanders driven by my SU but its in storage in France at the moment

I also have a pair of Sonus Faber Toys which am going to buy an Atom for Toys are good for Shelf or Wall Mount

S,

Depends what you are after I guess. I had the SHL5 (not the + version) and they could not be beaten for vocals, acoustic music. However my taste in music changed and rock/pop , hard rock was soon my preference & that is when they fell short for my expectations.

Do try to narrow down your choice to 2 or 3 and home demo. these. You said ProAc as a possible contender ? You room size ?  If you can fit them in the D48R is my choice as a fantastic "alround speaker" I am forever trying to find fault in it & I simply cannot (OCD type I am).

Only perhaps if I am very, very hyper critical it is voiced a tad back in the presence area - vocals - are sometimes, and only on certain tracks, just a touch back in the mix more than I prefer.  As in still excellent vocals, just not pushed forward in your face to sound more impressoive - as many other speakers do. So not sure if that will bother you if you are a "vocals first and foremost" kind of listener. 

Looking at your system & what you have now would be the minimum required for the D48R to see what they can really perform at. Do also try the D30DS if space is an issue and/or you cannot get out of the D48R what they are capable of with room/system constraints.

Good luck !

Huge posted:

To improve the 'speed' and tightness of the bass you could try blocking the reflex ports, and, a little more extreme, remove the internal cabinet acoustic damping then reintroduce damping to suit your taste in speed / colouration balance.

Why? Why would the typical consumer have to dick with speaker ports, let alone experimenting with internal damping components to improve their speakers? Based on my listening, Harbeth is much about sweet mid-range tonality, lush voices, etc. Great for jazz and folks absorbed with female crooners. Put on your velvet jacket, smoke a butt.

Speed and agility; not Harbeth's forte. Looking to rock? Proacs a better contender.

crackie posted:

S,

Depends what you are after I guess. I had the SHL5 (not the + version) and they could not be beaten for vocals, acoustic music. However my taste in music changed and rock/pop , hard rock was soon my preference & that is when they fell short for my expectations.

Do try to narrow down your choice to 2 or 3 and home demo. these. You said ProAc as a possible contender ? You room size ?  If you can fit them in the D48R is my choice as a fantastic "alround speaker" I am forever trying to find fault in it & I simply cannot (OCD type I am).

Only perhaps if I am very, very hyper critical it is voiced a tad back in the presence area - vocals - are sometimes, and only on certain tracks, just a touch back in the mix more than I prefer.  As in still excellent vocals, just not pushed forward in your face to sound more impressoive - as many other speakers do. So not sure if that will bother you if you are a "vocals first and foremost" kind of listener. 

Looking at your system & what you have now would be the minimum required for the D48R to see what they can really perform at. Do also try the D30DS if space is an issue and/or you cannot get out of the D48R what they are capable of with room/system constraints.

Good luck !

 

 

Hi Crackie

The room is about 24m2 and I have found speakers work best at the shortest wall. My musical taste around rock is limited to soft pop/ rock, so I guess speed and dynamics is not  my main issue. The first thing I noted from the Sonus Faber was it's more fysical approach, a bit more present in the mid bass. Harbeth's not as present or fysical i that area.

Your post both reminds me and confirms that there's no "the speaker diamond", but more of a speaker that can come as close as possible to my taste and needs. I could add a subwoofer to the Harbeths and I may be as close as possible. I'm pretty sure I know what I like.

Pretty sure D48 will be to big for the room so D30DS (dome) may be worth a try. 

S

Xenasys posted:

I have Sonus Faber Liuto Floorstanders driven by my SU but its in storage in France at the moment

I also have a pair of Sonus Faber Toys which am going to buy an Atom for Toys are good for Shelf or Wall Mount

Hi Xenasys

I have tried my Atom with Olympica II and they are wonderful together. Atom is a pearl in my view.

S

Iver van de Zand posted:

Hi Stover,

............. In the end I choose the Focal Kanta 2. Worth a try

iver

Hi Iver

I have home auditioned Sopra 1 earlier, but in another room and another setup. (NDS/ SN2) I really liked it's presentation, but I had some trouble No 1 beeing a bit upfront on some tracks. Knowing my new rooms acoustics well, it may well suit my taste and as far as I know I can audition again.

Most important, it has more than enough bass for me and most important, it's more fysical, clear and present.

Have you auditioned Sopra vs Kanta?

S

What you also can do is try to lisen to the new series from Sonus Faber. The Sonetta series. This speakers is placed between the Venere and Olympia . Also looking for a new speakers and it will be Sonus Faber or Focal Kantas.

joerand posted:

Huge posted:

To improve the 'speed' and tightness of the bass you could try blocking the reflex ports, and, a little more extreme, remove the internal cabinet acoustic damping then reintroduce damping to suit your taste in speed / colouration balance.

Why? Why would the typical consumer have to dick with speaker ports, let alone experimenting with internal damping components to improve their speakers? Based on my listening, Harbeth is much about sweet mid-range tonality, lush voices, etc. Great for jazz and folks absorbed with female crooners. Put on your velvet jacket, smoke a butt.

Speed and agility; not Harbeth's forte. Looking to rock? Proacs a better contender.

Because if someone has a pair of speakers where they like most of the properties exhibited but want to make adjustments to the sound, then it's a lot easier and less expensive to adjust position in the room and as you put it 'dick with' the speaker ports than it is to throw the baby out with the bath water and insist on buying (even s/h) many different sets of speakers on the off chance of finding something in-budget that suits them better (which may never happen anyway).

Finding a speaker to match the Harbeth mid-range and vocal presentation whilst having more dynamic mid-bass, is likely to cost more - a lot more!

Just because a designer chose one particular bass tuning compromise for a speaker doesn't mean that it will be the best compromise for your ears in your listening room!

Huge posted:

Two experiments you may like to try with the Harbeths (I'm sure Alan Shaw would want to put a contract on me for these suggestions)...

To improve the 'speed' and tightness of the bass you could try blocking the reflex ports, and, a little more extreme, remove the internal cabinet acoustic damping then reintroduce damping to suit your taste in speed / colouration balance.

Your suggestion on fitting something inside the reflex ports will work on the older SHL5 which has a fat, slow and imo flawed bass (I have lived with this configuration for 7 years). With the SHL5 Plus speakers which the OP has,  I don't think it is necessary as the speed and agility of the bass on the Plus are much improved. Much of the flaws and colourations of the old SHL5s were eliminated with the SHL5 Plus. Having said that, the speed of the bass may be improved further by partially or fully blocking the ports of the SHL5 Plus but the overall sound may become slightly thinner, leaner and more unnatural or unbalanced. My experience of having the ports blocked was with the SHL5 only, introducing a flawed remedy to address a larger flaw so the end result wasn't too bad.

Removal or modification of internal damping or parts of the speaker will lower the resale value of it. Personally I won't mess with that although i understand it is a suggestion and the OP is free to consider what that's appropriate. 

Stover posted:

crackie posted:

S,

Depends what you are after I guess. I had the SHL5 (not the + version) and they could not be beaten for vocals, acoustic music. However my taste in music changed and rock/pop , hard rock was soon my preference & that is when they fell short for my expectations.

Do try to narrow down your choice to 2 or 3 and home demo. these. You said ProAc as a possible contender ? You room size ?  If you can fit them in the D48R is my choice as a fantastic "alround speaker" I am forever trying to find fault in it & I simply cannot (OCD type I am).

Only perhaps if I am very, very hyper critical it is voiced a tad back in the presence area - vocals - are sometimes, and only on certain tracks, just a touch back in the mix more than I prefer.  As in still excellent vocals, just not pushed forward in your face to sound more impressoive - as many other speakers do. So not sure if that will bother you if you are a "vocals first and foremost" kind of listener. 

Looking at your system & what you have now would be the minimum required for the D48R to see what they can really perform at. Do also try the D30DS if space is an issue and/or you cannot get out of the D48R what they are capable of with room/system constraints.

Good luck !

 

 

Hi Crackie

The room is about 24m2 and I have found speakers work best at the shortest wall. My musical taste around rock is limited to soft pop/ rock, so I guess speed and dynamics is not  my main issue. The first thing I noted from the Sonus Faber was it's more fysical approach, a bit more present in the mid bass. Harbeth's not as present or fysical i that area.

Your post both reminds me and confirms that there's no "the speaker diamond", but more of a speaker that can come as close as possible to my taste and needs. I could add a subwoofer to the Harbeths and I may be as close as possible. I'm pretty sure I know what I like.

Pretty sure D48 will be to big for the room so D30DS (dome) may be worth a try. 

S

 

 

 

From your post it appears that you may be looking for more slam and presence in the mid bass area. You may try other speakers or perhaps consider integrating a pair of quality subs to boost the bass of the speaker. The only problem with the latter is you need to do it correctly or else it will be all wasted effort (and money). 

I find Sonus Faber to be rose tinted. I’ve listen to a number of different sf speakers from entry level to an $80,000 set with $200,000 of Audio Research mono blocks valves working them. Boring imo. I wouldn’t recommend them for Naim, they seem to tame the beast within and have bottom end boom, even when setup correctly a mile off the wall(s) . Its not until you have sold your house and spent the money on a set that this gets better. As I said boring but good hifi. Be careful you may fall In love with them fast, but over time you may well fall out of love just the same. Of course this is my opinion.

I did own a set once lovely furniture. 

Huge posted:

joerand posted:

Huge posted:

To improve the 'speed' and tightness of the bass you could try blocking the reflex ports, and, a little more extreme, remove the internal cabinet acoustic damping then reintroduce damping to suit your taste in speed / colouration balance.

Why? Why would the typical consumer have to dick with speaker ports, let alone experimenting with internal damping components to improve their speakers? Based on my listening, Harbeth is much about sweet mid-range tonality, lush voices, etc. Great for jazz and folks absorbed with female crooners. Put on your velvet jacket, smoke a butt.

Speed and agility; not Harbeth's forte. Looking to rock? Proacs a better contender.

Because if someone has a pair of speakers where they like most of the properties exhibited but want to make adjustments to the sound, then it's a lot easier and less expensive to adjust position in the room and as you put it 'dick with' the speaker ports than it is to throw the baby out with the bath water and insist on buying (even s/h) many different sets of speakers on the off chance of finding something in-budget that suits them better (which may never happen anyway).

Finding a speaker to match the Harbeth mid-range and vocal presentation whilst having more dynamic mid-bass, is likely to cost more - a lot more!

Just because a designer chose one particular bass tuning compromise for a speaker doesn't mean that it will be the best compromise for your ears in your listening room!

Huge

I follow you on most of this, if not all. Purchase of the SF was part of a plan to find out/ confirm if this is a never ending story and I think it is, a never ending story. You get some, looses some and the other way around with other speaker brands.

One may come closer with a no compromise speaker, but I'm not there. Another way to go is having two speaker sets, pending on both depending on type of music and so on. Selling on the Harbeth with the loss I probably will not anyway.

I have tried (almost) all possible positions in the room and there are differences. I have tried nearfield positioning and I like that also.

Auditioning another speaker outside the Harbeth range may be another variation within the same theme? Auditioning Harbeth 40.2 may solve some of my issues, but at the same time it will require a NAP300 I'm afraid. Again, never ending story.

S

ryder. posted:

Stover posted:

crackie posted:

S,

Depends what you are after I guess. I had the SHL5 (not the + version) and they could not be beaten for vocals, acoustic music. However my taste in music changed and rock/pop , hard rock was soon my preference & that is when they fell short for my expectations.

Do try to narrow down your choice to 2 or 3 and home demo. these. You said ProAc as a possible contender ? You room size ?  If you can fit them in the D48R is my choice as a fantastic "alround speaker" I am forever trying to find fault in it & I simply cannot (OCD type I am).

Only perhaps if I am very, very hyper critical it is voiced a tad back in the presence area - vocals - are sometimes, and only on certain tracks, just a touch back in the mix more than I prefer.  As in still excellent vocals, just not pushed forward in your face to sound more impressoive - as many other speakers do. So not sure if that will bother you if you are a "vocals first and foremost" kind of listener. 

Looking at your system & what you have now would be the minimum required for the D48R to see what they can really perform at. Do also try the D30DS if space is an issue and/or you cannot get out of the D48R what they are capable of with room/system constraints.

Good luck !

 

 

Hi Crackie

The room is about 24m2 and I have found speakers work best at the shortest wall. My musical taste around rock is limited to soft pop/ rock, so I guess speed and dynamics is not  my main issue. The first thing I noted from the Sonus Faber was it's more fysical approach, a bit more present in the mid bass. Harbeth's not as present or fysical i that area.

Your post both reminds me and confirms that there's no "the speaker diamond", but more of a speaker that can come as close as possible to my taste and needs. I could add a subwoofer to the Harbeths and I may be as close as possible. I'm pretty sure I know what I like.

Pretty sure D48 will be to big for the room so D30DS (dome) may be worth a try. 

S

 

 

 

From your post it appears that you may be looking for more slam and presence in the mid bass area. You may try other speakers or perhaps consider integrating a pair of quality subs to boost the bass of the speaker. The only problem with the latter is you need to do it correctly or else it will be all wasted effort (and money). 

Ryder

I have read many of your posts, also outside this forum, and as far as I have understood you have been in the same situation? Have you done something to change them or is it just a matter of accustoming?

I have considered sub's, but as you say there are big chances to fail.

To sum up, continue audition other speakers or just realize that speakers are compromises and I'll have to choose in the end........ cause if not, it's a never ending story  

S

crackie posted:

S,

Depends what you are after I guess. I had the SHL5 (not the + version) and they could not be beaten for vocals, acoustic music. However my taste in music changed and rock/pop , hard rock was soon my preference & that is when they fell short for my expectations.

Do try to narrow down your choice to 2 or 3 and home demo. these. You said ProAc as a possible contender ? You room size ?  If you can fit them in the D48R is my choice as a fantastic "alround speaker" I am forever trying to find fault in it & I simply cannot (OCD type I am).

Only perhaps if I am very, very hyper critical it is voiced a tad back in the presence area - vocals - are sometimes, and only on certain tracks, just a touch back in the mix more than I prefer.  As in still excellent vocals, just not pushed forward in your face to sound more impressoive - as many other speakers do. So not sure if that will bother you if you are a "vocals first and foremost" kind of listener. 

Looking at your system & what you have now would be the minimum required for the D48R to see what they can really perform at. Do also try the D30DS if space is an issue and/or you cannot get out of the D48R what they are capable of with room/system constraints.

Good luck !

 

 

Try Grahams, imo better to perform tunefull bas and vocals

Harbeths are a bit overrated with too many compromises in their price range ime

Stover posted:

 Auditioning Harbeth 40.2 may solve some of my issues, but at the same time it will require a NAP300 I'm afraid. Again, never ending story.

S

I've heard the 40 a couple of times in larger rooms, bas tunes were a disaster, really muddy and slow

Can't believe people are paying premium for such performance

Certainly require a home-dem

I was in a similar situation when I went through my first system needing a little more bass, but not nightclub bass.  Just a little something.  Before you go through all of this you might want to consider adding a sub.  Demo it at home, if you don’t like it nothing lost.  Then continue your speaker quest. 

Perol

Seems like you don't like Harbeths. I respect that, but not very useful info to me 

S

Zackwater posted:

I was in a similar situation when I went through my first system needing a little more bass, but not nightclub bass.  Just a little something.  Before you go through all of this you might want to consider adding a sub.  Demo it at home, if you don’t like it nothing lost.  Then continue your speaker quest. 

Zackwater

Thanks. As mentioned, I am considering a sub, but should be limited to a loan. We'll se.

S

Stover posted:

Huge posted:

joerand posted:

Huge posted:

To improve the 'speed' and tightness of the bass you could try blocking the reflex ports, and, a little more extreme, remove the internal cabinet acoustic damping then reintroduce damping to suit your taste in speed / colouration balance.

Why? Why would the typical consumer have to dick with speaker ports, let alone experimenting with internal damping components to improve their speakers? Based on my listening, Harbeth is much about sweet mid-range tonality, lush voices, etc. Great for jazz and folks absorbed with female crooners. Put on your velvet jacket, smoke a butt.

Speed and agility; not Harbeth's forte. Looking to rock? Proacs a better contender.

Because if someone has a pair of speakers where they like most of the properties exhibited but want to make adjustments to the sound, then it's a lot easier and less expensive to adjust position in the room and as you put it 'dick with' the speaker ports than it is to throw the baby out with the bath water and insist on buying (even s/h) many different sets of speakers on the off chance of finding something in-budget that suits them better (which may never happen anyway).

Finding a speaker to match the Harbeth mid-range and vocal presentation whilst having more dynamic mid-bass, is likely to cost more - a lot more!

Just because a designer chose one particular bass tuning compromise for a speaker doesn't mean that it will be the best compromise for your ears in your listening room!

Huge

I follow you on most of this, if not all. Purchase of the SF was part of a plan to find out/ confirm if this is a never ending story and I think it is, a never ending story. You get some, looses some and the other way around with other speaker brands.

One may come closer with a no compromise speaker, but I'm not there. Another way to go is having two speaker sets, pending on both depending on type of music and so on. Selling on the Harbeth with the loss I probably will not anyway.

I have tried (almost) all possible positions in the room and there are differences. I have tried nearfield positioning and I like that also.

Auditioning another speaker outside the Harbeth range may be another variation within the same theme? Auditioning Harbeth 40.2 may solve some of my issues, but at the same time it will require a NAP300 I'm afraid. Again, never ending story.

S

40.2 + LFD NCSE MK3?

Stover posted:

Huge posted:

joerand posted:

Huge posted:

To improve the 'speed' and tightness of the bass you could try blocking the reflex ports, and, a little more extreme, remove the internal cabinet acoustic damping then reintroduce damping to suit your taste in speed / colouration balance.

Why? Why would the typical consumer have to dick with speaker ports, let alone experimenting with internal damping components to improve their speakers? Based on my listening, Harbeth is much about sweet mid-range tonality, lush voices, etc. Great for jazz and folks absorbed with female crooners. Put on your velvet jacket, smoke a butt.

Speed and agility; not Harbeth's forte. Looking to rock? Proacs a better contender.

Because if someone has a pair of speakers where they like most of the properties exhibited but want to make adjustments to the sound, then it's a lot easier and less expensive to adjust position in the room and as you put it 'dick with' the speaker ports than it is to throw the baby out with the bath water and insist on buying (even s/h) many different sets of speakers on the off chance of finding something in-budget that suits them better (which may never happen anyway).

Finding a speaker to match the Harbeth mid-range and vocal presentation whilst having more dynamic mid-bass, is likely to cost more - a lot more!

Just because a designer chose one particular bass tuning compromise for a speaker doesn't mean that it will be the best compromise for your ears in your listening room!

Huge

I follow you on most of this, if not all. Purchase of the SF was part of a plan to find out/ confirm if this is a never ending story and I think it is, a never ending story. You get some, looses some and the other way around with other speaker brands.

One may come closer with a no compromise speaker, but I'm not there. Another way to go is having two speaker sets, pending on both depending on type of music and so on. Selling on the Harbeth with the loss I probably will not anyway.

I have tried (almost) all possible positions in the room and there are differences. I have tried nearfield positioning and I like that also.

Auditioning another speaker outside the Harbeth range may be another variation within the same theme? Auditioning Harbeth 40.2 may solve some of my issues, but at the same time it will require a NAP300 I'm afraid. Again, never ending story.

S

I have found that speakers vary so much in character that the vast majority of those I have heard at best simply do not sound right and at worst sound downright awful. (And before someone buts in saying it is about the music not the sound, whenever I refer to the sound of  speakers I mean the sound of music through them, and one cannot divorce oneself, or at least I cannot, from the character imposed by the speakers, which affects how one hears the music and hence how one enjoys the music.)

Depending how demanding you are, it can take quite a hunt to find the speakers that get everything right - to own ears, own expectations, with own taste in misic, and of course in own room (though I have found that both my old IMFs actually sounded good in all rooms in which I heard them, albeit that one awkward room took a lot of effort to find the right positioning- whether that means transmission lines are indeed less fussy as I have heard some people suggest, or that I was just lucky, I don’t know). And for me, as my taste in music covers some relative extremes of style, if also narrow tastes, the speakers simply have to sound good  across everything thrown at them.

In my own searching, I discovered that transmission line designs get the best at the bass end (which I am not prepared to forego unlike others). Whilst I cannot say that other designs can’t achieve as good a sound, having found this I have stuck with it in my two speaker changes since first finding that through a major auditioning exercise, though did audition a pair of B&W 802s a couple of years ago (and rejected them). So I have had three different transmission line speakers over the past 42 years, the first two IMF, now PMC. Mine is the EB1i, though the mid and top can be improved so I am now running them but with different mid and top (and triamping). The best speakers I heard were the PMC MB2SE, which had that better mid and top, but they would be more of a handful physically, and particularly taking into account the coming decades, so after much deliberation I decided the EB was the better compromise. However I was also impressed by the Fact 12 and would consider changing to them if I moved anywhere requiring physically smaller speakers. 

So, if you heven’t heard any, It may be worth auditioning some PMCs (though my recommendation is based on their upper ranges, as when I auditioned and got the EBs I also heard the top of the Twenty range, but unlike the others I heard I found it not as good as the IMFs I took as reference).