Harbeth, Sonus Faber- speakerhunt

Another brand that I could be worth checking out is ATC, who have an ourstanding reputation, and seem to have have been becoming increasingly popular on this forum. The SCM 40 and  upwards use their sublime 3 inch dome midrange, which is one of the best mid drivers ever (and I was lucky enough to get a pair before they ceased to supply bare drivers to the public, that being what I use in my triamped system).

And the 19 uses the legendary 150mm SL spec combined mid dome / bass driver... this driver is stonkingly good and I think incredibly natural sounding and is arguably one of ATC’s best drivers ever ... and pops up in their significantly more expensive professional speakers, but boy, is it heavy..so a real delight to have it available in a consumer/Hi-Fi  model speaker.

Stover posted:

Ryder

I have read many of your posts, also outside this forum, and as far as I have understood you have been in the same situation? Have you done something to change them or is it just a matter of accustoming?

I have considered sub's, but as you say there are big chances to fail.

To sum up, continue audition other speakers or just realize that speakers are compromises and I'll have to choose in the end........ cause if not, it's a never ending story  

S

Stover,

I was, for a short while as I slowly got used to the sound of the SHL5 Plus and accepted the fact that nothing is perfect and all loudspeakers have their own compromises, both strengths and weaknesses. For this reason I stopped searching. It is true that the SHL5 Plus may not sound too good with hard or fast rock when compared to say ATC, Naim, Proac or PMC speakers but it is still not too bad (at least better than the old SHL5). 

Similarly i don't really recommend subwoofers as it is too much of a hassle (i tried integrating one sub to the Harbeth previously and it didn't turn out too good but that's largely due to my novice attempt) but I take note that excellent results are possible provided it is done correctly, and that means putting in a lot of effort to the implementation. 

I used to have the desire of trying some of the recommended speakers mentioned here such as the ATC SCM 19 and some of the better Proac speakers but realised it may be a never ending pursuit in search of the holy grail, just like swapping amplifiers. I now concentrate more on the music, less on equipment and speakers. The speakers would still have to deliver and fortunately I still enjoy the SHL5 Plus for the things they are good at.  I mostly listen to jazz fusion (instrumental) with a little pop and rock, no hard rock. The Harbeth does not sound too good with hard or fast rock because the bass lacks the impact and sound a little slow. But for most music genres they are rather good. If I were to consider another pair of speakers it is likely I would return to the Harbeth some day so I thought I'd better stop searching and start enjoying the tunes.

Thanks Ryder

I think I understand very well and I find your final approach as the right one. I'm pretty sure I will continue this search in some way.

To all others as well, thanks a lot for the input. Hopefully during this autumn I can land this speakersearch and just play music  

S

Sounsfaber posted:

I find Sonus Faber to be rose tinted. I’ve listen to a number of different sf speakers from entry level to an $80,000 set with $200,000 of Audio Research mono blocks valves working them. Boring imo. I wouldn’t recommend them for Naim, they seem to tame the beast within and have bottom end boom, even when setup correctly a mile off the wall(s) . Its not until you have sold your house and spent the money on a set that this gets better. As I said boring but good hifi. Be careful you may fall In love with them fast, but over time you may well fall out of love just the same. Of course this is my opinion.

I did own a set once lovely furniture. 

I only have a single experience with the Sonus Faber - the Grand Piano Concerto speakers. They are some of the most coloured speakers i have owned. I tried numerous amps to make them work but they didn't, so I swapped them with the PMC LB1 Signatures (which sounded slightly more neutral and less coloured). The PMCs were upgraded to the old Harbeth SHL5 and even the already coloured SHL5 sounded much livelier, revealing and neutral than the dead sounding Sonus Fabers.

However, I understand the higher-end SF models sound better than the low-end Grand Piano Concerto that I owned. 

That's not my impression, based on the Olympica II.

S

I owned a set of Sonus Faber Extrema speakers for a few years and tried several amps that I owned on them. 

Classe DR10....probably the most boring sound I have ever had in a room. So bad I simply gave the amp away. 
Naim 250. It was at best OK, but sounded very restrained, sedate and lost all the vigor that the 250 is known for. 
Exposure XVI monoblocks-Oh yes....tunes galore, detail, dynamics and punch. 
Naim NAP 135...Very much like the 135s, but a tad crisper (maybe brighter) with midrange not quite as openly seductive as the XVI. 

None of these could even come remotely close to the next amps I used....

A four-pack of NAP 135s, one per driver per speaker running passively biamped. This was by far the best sound I have had at home and visitors were always enthralled and captivated by the very credible recreation of the sound of live music. Not in the LEAST bit colored. It has a very difficult crossover and requires mighty power, but when everything is right, it was the best commercial speaker I had ever heard (well maybe the Acoustat 2+2 is up there too). 

I stupidly ending up selling them to a guy who had sellers regret after he sold HIS pair and found he could not find a replacement that sounded even as good. He had run with with the mighty VTL 750 (as the name suggests 750 wpc of tube power). But when he heard my 4x135 setup he almost wept-it was so much better than what he was accustomed to. I am sure the CDS1 and NAC52 had something to do with that too...the CDS1 and the SF speakers were cut from the same cloth. 

So he packed them in his station wagon and drove off, with me suffering almost immediate sellers regret (I had committed to getting a set of active DBLs at that point so the SF had to go). 

To add insult to injury-he never paid me for them either (he said he was a child psychiatrist, so I trusted him...)

The DBLs came and did things the SF could never do such as insane volumes and gut wrenching bass, but the organic palette, the  walk around in it soundstage and transparency of the SF was not to be found in the DBLs. I changed the type of music I listened to with the DBLs and went deeper into electronic and further away from acoustic based recordings whose sparks ignited the flames of the Extremas. 

If anybody in Nashville comes across a set of Extremas, please inform the owner he still owes me $7500. 

Blimey.... Hope you get paid Ron but looks like you lost the speakers and the money... Very sad.

To me out of the speakers I heard the best match for what I look for.... The fast and dynamic live sound that we associate with naim....

Only one speaker does it for me.... Dynaudio...

Ron, a very enjoyable read, makes me think how complicated this hobby can be. Pity about the money and hopefully he's the biggest looser here. I don't know the Extrema, but as far as I know, the different SF generations have their own signature and different likings I guess.

Olympica made a suprising performance in my room and they are easy to like and to integrate. Not bloated or especially colored either.

I have continued working with placement this evening and the Harbeths Super HL5plus are now further out from front wall 1.2m), wider apart (2.3m), lesser toe in. There's no other speaker that has hit me as with Harbeth. When given distance from front and side walls, energy increases, netter clarity, more coherent, they work better than ever.

The purchase of SF gave a positive synergy towards Harbeth, their placement or how to handle them in general. 

Stover

Talking about Sonus Faber Extrema, the store where I bought the SF Grand Pianos (more than 15 years ago, time flies) had a pair of Extremas for sale. I didn't have the budget for the Extremas at that time so I bought the Grand Pianos. A friend who accompanied me bought the Extremas. The Extremas are legendary (and rare) speakers. From Ron's experience, it is true that they need huge amount of current and power to sound special. They are tri-wire speakers I think to be able to take 3 amps (or 3 pairs of monoblocks). Another huge chunk of money there for amplification to drive the Extremas and bring out the best in the speakers. 

Interesting story that the child psychiatrist got a free pair of Extremas. 

Stover posted:

Ron, a very enjoyable read, makes me think how complicated this hobby can be. Pity about the money and hopefully he's the biggest looser here. I don't know the Extrema, but as far as I know, the different SF generations have their own signature and different likings I guess.

Olympica made a suprising performance in my room and they are easy to like and to integrate. Not bloated or especially colored either.

I have continued working with placement this evening and the Harbeths Super HL5plus are now further out from front wall 1.2m), wider apart (2.3m), lesser toe in. There's no other speaker that has hit me as with Harbeth. When given distance from front and side walls, energy increases, netter clarity, more coherent, they work better than ever.

The purchase of SF gave a positive synergy towards Harbeth, their placement or how to handle them in general. 

Stover

That's a rather good placement for the SHL5 Plus. 1.1 to 1.2m out from front wall and 2.3m apart. Mine is around the same distance from wall boundaries but a little closer together. 

Huge posted:

it's a lot easier and less expensive to adjust position in the room and as you put it 'dick with' the speaker ports than it is to throw the baby out with the bath water and insist on buying (even s/h) many different sets of speakers on the off chance of finding something in-budget that suits them better (which may never happen anyway).

Huge, your original reply (below) said nothing about adjusting room position, but now that you bring it into the discussion, I agree, that's an obvious and costless potential improvement. 'Dick with' as I put it; what better descriptor for the suggestion of inserting an object into a port?

While Harbeth's are expensive plywood boxes lined with cheap damping materials, the notion of opening them to experiment with removal and re-application of alternatives seems farcical for the typical listener. Trying different speakers? I find that's actually the approach taken by most of us here.

Huge posted:

To improve the 'speed' and tightness of the bass you could try blocking the reflex ports, and, a little more extreme, remove the internal cabinet acoustic damping then reintroduce damping to suit your taste in speed / colouration balance.

joerand posted:

 

While Harbeth's are expensive plywood boxes lined with cheap damping materials, the notion of opening them to experiment with removal and re-application of alternatives seems farcical for the typical listener. Trying different speakers? I find that's actually the approach taken by most of us here.

There was a bit of a craze for doing that, started back on the 80s (IIRC) by a reviewer called Jimmy Hughes. My view was what a load of rubbish (actually I soon learnt to dismiss most of what that individual said with the same conclusion, and not bother reading, or buying that magazine). 

Decent manufacturers go to some lengths - even great lengths, to get their speakers to produce as good a sound as they can, at least within assigned constraints of price and size. Ripping out the stuffing/lining is likely to significantly change the speaker characteristics, and create significant colouration - if that is what someone wants, surely it is better to hunt for a speaker that does what they want in the first place (unless they have managed to pick them up for nothing, or nearly so). Otherwise if they want to simply experiment to create a characteristic they like, it maybe better to build their own when they can experiment to their heart’s content.

The performance of speakers is always a compromise, there are ways to adjust the balance of that compromise to suit different rooms and listening tastes.  Adjusting the position of the speakers is one, adjusting (even blocking) the reflex ports is another.

Yes adjusting the internal acoustic damping is a little more extreme, but moderate adjustments to the damping can be made to 'fine tune' a speaker without altering it's fundamental nature.  I'm not suggesting removing all the internal acoustic damping, however if the increase in perceived mid bass speed from blocking the ports is still insufficient, the just reducing the amount to give a slight increase in perceived mid bass speed at the expense of a commensurate slight increase in colouration is still an option without fundamentally altering the characteristics of a speaker that the OP mostly likes.

Note that both these suggestions are reversible and blocking the ports is even easier to try than re-positioning the speakers!.

It seems like this is about placement and room interaction after all. I was pretty sure I knew the room, but when moving the speakers and the listeningposition further away from the front wall, bass, scale etc increases. As far out as 1.55m work really well and bass is there now. I will sell of the SF and move on with the Harbeths, continue to finetune placement better the room acoustics.

Thanks, S

Sonus Faber speakers are wonderful we have Olympica 1 and they are amazing with Naim

Stover posted:

It seems like this is about placement and room interaction after all. I was pretty sure I knew the room, but when moving the speakers and the listeningposition further away from the front wall, bass, scale etc increases. As far out as 1.55m work really well and bass is there now. I will sell of the SF and move on with the Harbeths, continue to finetune placement better the room acoustics.

Thanks, S

 

The room is  critical part of the system, and can have a huge influence on the sound, far more tgan some other components - yet often is ignored even by people spending huge sums on the purchased components.

The best I have ever heard music sound from a hifi system was one played outdoors, in a moderately large garden with virtually no hard surfaces anywhere near, just hedges and grass and other vegetation. Unfortunately the vast majority of us do not have the option of listening in such an environment, and so suffer the compromises of playing music inside a box.

The most basic approach to minimising room effects is by optimising placement - of listening position as well as speakers, as both have an effect. And sometimes optimum can require a complete room rearrangement, or perhaps normal playing with one arrangement, and moving a seat and/or speakers when you want to enjoy at its best. Beyond that,  room treatment can be applied, which can reduce muddiness, reduce harshness, reduce bass boom, even out frequency response etc - even if you don’t know these things are happening. Some is easy, some not so - bass treatment in particular tending to involve  large absorbers for which there is often limited scope domestically.

To guide all of this it is often helpful to measure tge response at different locations in the room. One useful tool is REW (Room Equalisation Wizard), which is free computer software, though you need a suitable measuring microphone (around £100). I have certainly found it very useful myself.

Dev B- I agree, Olympica are wonderful with Naim and I could easily have lived with those too.

I B- very wise, I agree, it's really worth taking placement and room acoustics seriously. I have a plan with the latter and if I succeed I will start a new thread later.

S