Next upgrade - ND555 or Pre/ power

RM posted:

Sorry just to clarify it is a 5m by 3.2m room - would like to think it’s a fairly typical size room for common man here. 

Not a typical size system for the common man however ;-)

Klout10 posted:

French Rooster posted:

with google conversion, 16 square meters give 4 m2.  It is that?   it is the dimensions of toilets, so i must be wrong....

4 times 4 meters equals 16 square meters ... equivalent to 13.12 times 13.12 feet ????

ah ok, it is more logic now.   I have a nap 300dr in 19 m2 room and feel it is the limit.   So for op question, i would go for more refined standmount speakers or eventually better pre.

RM posted:

Bert Schurink posted:

I first would go for the 552, before considering the ND555. The ND555 would be overkill on the 282, and your NDS would benefit hugely from the 552.

Thanks Bert would you say not worth doing 252/supercap at all? Does the supercap work on 282 in your experience?

A Supercap on a 282 works very well indeed, in my experience. I ran a 282/SCDR, initially with 250.2 and later  300DR, and was very impressed at what the 282 is capable of (tried the 252 and wasn't convinced).  Your system looks pretty well balanced to me. If you're prepared to invest 'ND555 money', I'd look at a  552 first. Otherwise, I suggest a more modest outlay and improve your existing pre-amp by replaced the HC with a SC.

I’m surprised the source first people haven’t prevailed and simply said ND555! And the suggestion of turntable instead seemed a bit bizarre...

if you consider speakers, the PMC Fact 12 would work better than the 20.26: much better sound quality, so skinny it doesn’t look big (from in front), and the response can be tailored somewhatbwith switches - it is certainly one I would consider if I had to squeeze into what is quite a narrow room. It would probably benefit from the 300.

But as for what is the best thing, ND555, 552 or speakers and possibly power amp, maybe you need to consider what part of the sound is most limiting at the moment, and try to pinpoint what part of the system might be causing that - and given the source you already have i suspect it is not that. Also relevant to consider is what your path might be and how soon you might upgrade further, even whether you might move to a larger room any time soon...

MDS posted:

 

 

 

A Supercap on a 282 works very well indeed, in my experience. I ran a 282/SCDR, initially with 250.2 and later  300DR, and was very impressed at what the 282 is capable of (tried the 252 and wasn't convinced).  Your system looks pretty well balanced to me. If you're prepared to invest 'ND555 money', I'd look at a  552 first. Otherwise, I suggest a more modest outlay and improve your existing pre-amp by replaced the HC with a SC.

Interestingly I have on demo a SCDR, which is paired with 282/300dr, I am extremely  impressed..... it works exceptionally well

"maybe you need to consider what part of the sound is most limiting at the moment, and try to pinpoint what part of the system might be causing that"``

The room, most likely.

Innocent Bystander posted:

I’m surprised the source first people haven’t prevailed and simply said ND555! And the suggestion of turntable instead seemed a bit bizarre...

if you consider speakers, the PMC Fact 12 would work better than the 20.26: much better sound quality, so skinny it doesn’t look big (from in front), and the response can be tailored somewhatbwith switches - it is certainly one I would consider if I had to squeeze into what is quite a narrow room. It would probably benefit from the 300.

But as for what is the best thing, ND555, 552 or speakers and possibly power amp, maybe you need to consider what part of the sound is most limiting at the moment, and try to pinpoint what part of the system might be causing that - and given the source you already have i suspect it is not that. Also relevant to consider is what your path might be and how soon you might upgrade further, even whether you might move to a larger room any time soon...

Thanks - plenty of food for thought  - a bigger room is unlikely in short term. Room  reConfiguration and layout more likely possibilities. Perhaps I need to look at speakers which may be are the missing piece in terms of getting the best out of the set up in this room. currently speakers are along the longest wall (2m apart) with listening position / triangle also around 2 meters from speakers. Will report back once I get a chance to experiment. 

Thank all for your advice, appreciated 

So, after taking a step back from the urge to upgrade electronics, and on the suggestions of a few of of the members on this post, I borrowed my brother’s Kudos X2 speakers to solidify or dispel if the S-400s were the weak link in the set up and coming in the way of musical enjoyment. Boy, the X2s May be small in stature but they turn in a massively musical performance! Even my 10 year old noticed that the music just sounded more fun! X2s have a great midrange and a very open organic sound but can be a bit coarse in treble. They are far from perfect but just have this great synergy with naim electronics. After a long time I was truly immersed in the enjoyment of music rather than its reproduction! Sadly the S-400s will need to go.

I am keen to see if, given my set up, the kudos X3s and C2s will be even better, but worry the latter in particular may be too much in my 4m by 4m room. Also wonder what other alternatives I should consider, eg from likes of ATC or PMC, that will work in my room, set up and offer similar levels of musical enjoyment? 

Interesting, RM, I wouldn't have thought of X2s as the obvious choice as an upgrade from S400s! Still, I have been very happy with my X2s, and although I've hinted to my dealer a couple of times that I may consider moving on from them, on both occasions he told me not to bother. I suspect that your smallish, square room will be difficult, and perhaps X2s work well because they are small, not fussy about room positioning, and don't have the bass extension of a larger floorstander. 

ChrisSU posted:

Interesting, RM, I wouldn't have thought of X2s as the obvious choice as an upgrade from S400s! Still, I have been very happy with my X2s, and although I've hinted to my dealer a couple of times that I may consider moving on from them, on both occasions he told me not to bother. I suspect that your smallish, square room will be difficult, and perhaps X2s work well because they are small, not fussy about room positioning, and don't have the bass extension of a larger floorstander. 

I guess what I was describing was the enjoyment factor of the X2 was much better for my tastes than the s-400s. Clearly the Ovators are very well designed speakers from an engineering perspective but somehow I have perhaps not got on with them as much as I thought I would.

Word of caution. The synergy you get with a non DR power amp and any pair of speakers and the synergy with a DR power amp and the same speakers is hugely different. 

As I notice your 250.2 is pre DR, you might want to take care of that (either DR it or go for a 300DR) and then choose new speakers. The DR upgrade is not the same but better. While it is better, when I DRed my 250.2 (which was chosen to work so well with the speakers I was buying it with), the DR upgrade broke the spell. I had to change speakers to get something that let the 250DR shine. And I'm not the only one who tried a DR variant in my system and found it a problem. 

It really is a massive upgrade but it really is a different set of power amps.

With that in mind, you might find, for the equivalent cost of a ND555 head unit, you could add a SCDR to the 282, Send the 250.2 off for DRing, and then buy a new pair of speakers, thus bringing the whole system up a notch while still being very balanced end-to-end.

You will only hear the strength of 500 series when you have them complete.

BNN posted:

You will only hear the strength of 500 series when you have them complete.

Does that mean don't bother buying any 500 series component unless you plan on going all the way and replace everything?

I thought an ND555 would make a nice house warming present to myself but I shan't bother now. You've just saved me GBP20K.

I have a room the same size as yours and depending on the speakers of course I wouldn't go with 300 I would go with a NDS/555/552/250 system and a change of speakers.                                                                                                           

So after about 3 months trialling a number of pairs of speakers at home (Dynaudio Cantour 30, PMC 25.26, Kudos Titan 707), all facilitated by 3 very supportive and friendly dealers, finally settled on Kudos Titan 606. Beautifully made speakers, and best of all, work wonderfully well with Naim and are letting the current system shine. Feel like the end game speakers for me instinctively. It’s been a great journey. Some new relationships built in the process and old ones cemented.  A huge thanks to Simon @ Audio T Reading, Jacek@ Oranges and Lemons and Chris @ Hiddensystems. Great service and support from all. 

RM posted:

So after about 3 months trialling a number of pairs of speakers at home (Dynaudio Cantour 30, PMC 25.26, Kudos Titan 707), all facilitated by 3 very supportive and friendly dealers, finally settled on Kudos Titan 606. Beautifully made speakers, and best of all, work wonderfully well with Naim and are letting the current system shine. Feel like the end game speakers for me instinctively. It’s been a great journey. Some new relationships built in the process and old ones cemented.  A huge thanks to Simon @ Audio T Reading, Jacek@ Oranges and Lemons and Chris @ Hiddensystems. Great service and support from all. 

Given your clearly thorough comparison, it would be interesting to learn what you felt about the performance of each of those four speakers in your room. Useful with that would be a fuller description of the room (dimensions/shape, not just area, how acoustically bright or damped it is, and speaker/listening positions).

Did you try the PMC Fact 12 at any point?

Innocent Bystander posted:

RM posted:

So after about 3 months trialling a number of pairs of speakers at home (Dynaudio Cantour 30, PMC 25.26, Kudos Titan 707), all facilitated by 3 very supportive and friendly dealers, finally settled on Kudos Titan 606. Beautifully made speakers, and best of all, work wonderfully well with Naim and are letting the current system shine. Feel like the end game speakers for me instinctively. It’s been a great journey. Some new relationships built in the process and old ones cemented.  A huge thanks to Simon @ Audio T Reading, Jacek@ Oranges and Lemons and Chris @ Hiddensystems. Great service and support from all. 

Given your clearly thorough comparison, it would be interesting to learn what you felt about the performance of each of those four speakers in your room. Useful with that would be a fuller description of the room (dimensions/shape, not just area, how acoustically bright or damped it is, and speaker/listening positions).

Did you try the PMC Fact 12 at any point?

Room is a modest squarish shape 4.5m by 3.5m roughly. No chimneys but big windows on one side. Speakers are along the longest wall, 2m apart and listening position around 2.5m away so a decent triangle. Room is reasonably well damped with 3 fabric sofa seaters and a shaggy rug, although no much in terms of paintings on the wall.

Dynaudios were beautiful speakers and worked well with naim although due to rear porting very fussy in terms of room positioning. They sounded really nice to begin with but as the days went sounded overly warm and less enjoyable. Then came the Titan 707s. Lovely fluid way with the music and open treble and base. Very efficient speakers too so barely needed the volume and great low level dynamics. Ultimately though, proved too strong in the room given their size and big drivers, bare walls did not help matters, nor did the close listening position. I also had a strange sensation in my ears after two separate lengthy sessions a week apart with them which left me concerned I had damaged my ears

The PMCs - with their Transmission line and front porting design worked well in the room, in fact I liked them in the room more than I did in the dem room at Oranges and Lemons. Not fussy with room positioning. Clean sound good bass however ultimately I found them a boring listen really in comparison to both the dynaudios or titans. Then it was time for the 606s. Not as efficient as 707s but in many ways a better package for the room - clean and open treble (not bright) but a beautiful fluid way with the music and no shortage of bottom end when it’s there in the music. Lovely big soundstage too and great low level dynamics. 

I had all these speakers for at least a couple of weeks so a good enough time to come to the conclusion. Also worth adding that in addition to these I also tried ATC SCM 40 and Neat Momentum SX5i in the dem rooms - liked neither of them. ATCs just did not seem to work with naim amps - felt they needed more power. Very clinical and analytical sound. Neats had better PRAT but too warm even in a big dem room. 

I actually never tried the PMC Facts 12 so don’t know how they would have worked. 

RM posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

RM posted:

So after about 3 months trialling a number of pairs of speakers at home (Dynaudio Cantour 30, PMC 25.26, Kudos Titan 707), all facilitated by 3 very supportive and friendly dealers, finally settled on Kudos Titan 606. Beautifully made speakers, and best of all, work wonderfully well with Naim and are letting the current system shine. Feel like the end game speakers for me instinctively. It’s been a great journey. Some new relationships built in the process and old ones cemented.  A huge thanks to Simon @ Audio T Reading, Jacek@ Oranges and Lemons and Chris @ Hiddensystems. Great service and support from all. 

Given your clearly thorough comparison, it would be interesting to learn what you felt about the performance of each of those four speakers in your room. Useful with that would be a fuller description of the room (dimensions/shape, not just area, how acoustically bright or damped it is, and speaker/listening positions).

Did you try the PMC Fact 12 at any point?

Room is a modest squarish shape 4.5m by 3.5m roughly. No chimneys but big windows on one side. Speakers are along the longest wall, 2m apart and listening position around 2.5m away so a decent triangle. Room is reasonably well damped with 3 fabric sofa seaters and a shaggy rug, although no much in terms of paintings on the wall.

Dynaudios were beautiful speakers and worked well with naim although due to rear porting very fussy in terms of room positioning. They sounded really nice to begin with but as the days went sounded overly warm and less enjoyable. Then came the Titan 707s. Lovely fluid way with the music and open treble and base. Very efficient speakers too so barely needed the volume and great low level dynamics. Ultimately though, proved too strong in the room given their size and big drivers, bare walls did not help matters, nor did the close listening position. I also had a strange sensation in my ears after two separate lengthy sessions a week apart with them which left me concerned I had damaged my ears

The PMCs - with their Transmission line and front porting design worked well in the room, in fact I liked them in the room more than I did in the dem room at Oranges and Lemons. Not fussy with room positioning. Clean sound good bass however ultimately I found them a boring listen really in comparison to both the dynaudios or titans. Then it was time for the 606s. Not as efficient as 707s but in many ways a better package for the room - clean and open treble (not bright) but a beautiful fluid way with the music and no shortage of bottom end when it’s there in the music. Lovely big soundstage too and great low level dynamics. 

I had all these speakers for at least a couple of weeks so a good enough time to come to the conclusion. Also worth adding that in addition to these I also tried ATC SCM 40 and Neat Momentum SX5i in the dem rooms - liked neither of them. ATCs just did not seem to work with naim amps - felt they needed more power. Very clinical and analytical sound. Neats had better PRAT but too warm even in a big dem room. 

I actually never tried the PMC Facts 12 so don’t know how they would have worked. 

Also to add that 606s seem to have all the PRaT of Naim Ovators which I felt none of the other speakers could match. So overall a great pair in my view for naim electronics. 

RM posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

RM posted:

 

Did you try the PMC Fact 12 at any point?

I actually never tried the PMC Facts 12 so don’t know how they would have worked. 

The Fact 12s need a lot of driving and  some on here have needed a 300 or even 500 to drive them properly so you've not missed anything in not trying them. 

I was at the same crossroads earlier this year. When I replaced my S400 with Sopra2, all of a sudden everything came together and my music was much more engaging.

Sometimes speakers do come before source.

Enjoy your wonderful speakers.

boom posted:

I was at the same crossroads earlier this year. When I replaced my S400 with Sopra2, all of a sudden everything came together and my music was much more engaging.

Sometimes speakers do come before source.

Enjoy your wonderful speakers.

 

Sopra 2s are stunningly good.  

Yes I agree. They won me over very quickly with their SQ performance and are very pleasing to the eye.

They have also put an end to my black box up grade........for now

boom posted:

I was at the same crossroads earlier this year. When I replaced my S400 with Sopra2, all of a sudden everything came together and my music was much more engaging.

Sometimes speakers do come before source.

Enjoy your wonderful speakers.

 

Thanks and I agree, a change of speakers has brought such an improvement. I’m glad I did not get tempted to keep adding black boxes without addressing the speakers. Feel like the system is now nicely balanced for the time being  

RM posted:

boom posted:

I was at the same crossroads earlier this year. When I replaced my S400 with Sopra2, all of a sudden everything came together and my music was much more engaging.

Sometimes speakers do come before source.

Enjoy your wonderful speakers.

 

Thanks and I agree, a change of speakers has brought such an improvement. I’m glad I did not get tempted to keep adding black boxes without addressing the speakers. Feel like the system is now nicely balanced for the time being  

Just as well you didn't give the 552 a listen. If you had, I would wager this story would have ended differently.

Enjoy the new speakers, they are exceptional, and likely to be my next investigation, having heard them at a dealer demo.