ATC SCM19 VS Neat Motive SX1/SX2

Not sure where you are gettig 'slow Harbeth bass' from. Keep an open mind and enjoy your music at the dems.

That's a great short list, scm19, 30.1, and special 40. I would add atc scm40. I've read special 40 offer serious levels of bass for a stand mount.

I have a pair of 30.1 on home demo at the moment and they have a beautiful sound. The bass is not as accurate and fast as scm40 or scm19 but still well controlled and balanced. For my room the bass level of 30.1 is a good match, scm40 has too much, scm19 too little (a touch forward for my room/setup/taste).

Nothing sounds bad on 30.1, it plays everything well, as does scm40.

Christopher_M posted:

Not sure where you are gettig 'slow Harbeth bass' from. Keep an open mind and enjoy your music at the dems.

Totally agree about having an open mind... but I have to say my pair of Harbeth Compact 7es3 speakers did have a somewhat slower bass compared to what I was used to.. in the end I sold them on and returned back to ATC. This was when ATC used I think Seas tweeters, and the Harbeths at that time sounded sweeter... clearly that has changed now.

I will of course keep an open mind when listening to these speakers. That's why I would like to listen to these three models (the SCM40 is too big for my space). I might end up being surprised and prefer a speaker I wasn't expecting to. I have to admit though, that from descriptions of the sound, I am a little expecting to prefer the ATC SCM19. 

I'll know for sure when I have heard them!

The floorspace of SCM40 and SCM19 on a stand is pretty much the same. However, SCM40 does shift more bass energy so you need a room that can take it.

Halloween Man posted:

The floorspace of SCM40 and SCM19 on a stand is pretty much the same. However, SCM40 does shift more bass energy so you need a room that can take it.

True. But the SCM40 might be too strong in the bass for my 3 X 4.5 room. 

Daniel H. posted:

I will of course keep an open mind when listening to these speakers. That's why I would like to listen to these three models (the SCM40 is too big for my space). I might end up being surprised and prefer a speaker I wasn't expecting to. I have to admit though, that from descriptions of the sound, I am a little expecting to prefer the ATC SCM19. 

The 40s go down a few hertz lower than the 19s, but the bass driver is the same size, and so change in bass energy is there but not that significant but being an infinite baffle design, this can only be achieved by doubling the case volume. So the performances may be quite close between them, for true deep extended bass for all SCM series, ATC recommend a subwoofer and their subwoofer have settings to match their SCM models.. I think in a smaller room you are more likely to find the imaging works better with 19s rather than the 40s, so you will have to decide for yourself. You may find that 19s work better at lower volumes because of simplified crossover for two drivers instead of three, but again a home demo will decide. 

The one major consideration you have with the 19s that you don’t have with the 40s are stands. With the ATC as with most stand mounts this is as important as the speaker itself. This will significantly affect the performance and sonic balance of the 19s. A rigid SomethingSolid tank will sound tight and agile, but with a lesser bass presence. A solid mass filled stand may well sound slower and bass heavy with with possible high end smearing and lack of definition.. the stand / speaker coupling is important here. I went for a compromise with my ATC and went for an open frame wood and Torlyte stand... that had the best balance between agility and presence and bass weight and tightness... in other words sounded the most natural. There was quite a lot of tedious trial and error though trying different stands...

You sure it’s the same size ? I d say not and especially to me the 40s even though specs may not suggest so go significantly lower than  19s.

A home demo is very important indeed. Last week, I spent a few hours listening to a few speakers, starting first with the SCM 40s which I had asked the dealer to prioritise given what I had heard and read about them. System was a n-272 / XPs / 300dr - not as good as my nds/555dr/282/hicap dr/ 250.2, but it was a decently balanced system in paper. It was a largish room (5m by 5m). I must admit it was an underwhelming experience. The bass performance was poor - the slightly leaner character of the 300s didn’t help matters. And wondered if position was correct - the dealer mentioned SCMs like being closer to wall to work better in bass.

Then listened to PMC 25.24s in same position and the bass was much better and it worked much better with the naim set up, albeit the tweeter was a bit on the sharper side for these ears. But it was much more musical. Also listened to Neat momentum 2.5 way floorstanders (name escapes me now) and they had good energy but not to my taste.

Finally listed to Dynaudio Cantour 30 and wow they worked beautifully all round. Lovely sweet sound and fine bass performance. The soft dome tweeter works really well. So these are on a shortlist now.

Going back again next weekend, this time listening to PMc 25.26 Vs the Cantours before deciding which ones to loan for home demo and compare with the Ovators s-400s for my listening environment. 

If I didn’t understand it before, I know fully well now that speakers are such a personal thing and the way we hear, and our tastes are different and so there is no substitute for extensive demos. 

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

ATC recommend a subwoofer and their subwoofer have settings to match their SCM models..

 

Also to the 40's?

Or only the 19's and 11s?

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

The 40s go down a few hertz lower than the 19s, but the bass driver is the same size, and so change in bass energy is there but not that significant but being an infinite baffle design, this can only be achieved by doubling the case volume. So the performances may be quite close between them, for true deep extended bass for all SCM series, ATC recommend a subwoofer and their subwoofer have settings to match their SCM models.

The 40 bass driver is bigger than the 19. I've heard both 19 and 40 at the same time in the same room and although on paper seem similar, in practice there is a huge difference. The 40s produce room shaking low bass, the bass drops off very slowly so true low bass at 35hz is still there at -6db. No subwoofer required for 40, these are full range speakers.

In my modest room, scm19 leave me dissatisfied with the levels of bass and wanting more, the 40s have way too much (+12db at 45hz).

Fair enough, yes the 40 has a 164 mm bass driver and the 19 a 150 bass driver..I was wrong on that driver size.

The 19 goes down to around 54 Hz at -6dB down whilst the 40 goes to around 48 Hz at -6dB down. Obviously rooms will affect the attenuation and you may feel they reach this or go lower with out significant attenuation in your room. 

However ATC recommend for full range you use their subwoofer, and it has settings to match the 19 and the 40.

With scm40 i really don't see the need for a sub with music but i guess it depends on your room and taste. it may help if you're watching movies, mastering, or you're just complete bass head! The 48Hz -3db drops down very slowly compared to most other speakers. It goes down to 35hz just -6db down (quasi-anechoic measurement, see http://www.avmentor.net/review...14/atc_scm40_2.shtml).

I’ve recently demoed both the passive 40s and 19s. I really loved the mid driver of the 40 but I found the bass too over powering for our small room (10’ x 10.5’). The 19s  sound superb and are much better suited to smaller spaces. I’m using 282 with Hicap DR and 250DR and the 19s are a great match.

Hi Daniel.

Have you heard the Neat Motive SX1 or SX2 yet? I would say at least give them a go... It's great that you're now actually auditioning some speakers and it sounds like you're getting a general feel for what really appeals to your good self.

Stephen Tate posted:

Hi Daniel.

Have you heard the Neat Motive SX1 or SX2 yet? I would say at least give them a go... It's great that you're now actually auditioning some speakers and it sounds like you're getting a general feel for what really appeals to your good self.

Hi Stephen,

I haven't heard the Neats yet. I was thinking that maybe they were not in the same league as the three speakers I auditioned. I might be wrong about that! 

The only Neat dealer in my area recently started carrying the Naim Uniti line (he only carries Uniti products). I would be able to hear the Neats on a Nova, which I presume is close enough in sound to my Supernait 2 to make a reasonable comparison. I will report back if I try them. 

Daniel H. posted:

Stephen Tate posted:

Hi Daniel.

Have you heard the Neat Motive SX1 or SX2 yet? I would say at least give them a go... It's great that you're now actually auditioning some speakers and it sounds like you're getting a general feel for what really appeals to your good self.

Hi Stephen,

I haven't heard the Neats yet. I was thinking that maybe they were not in the same league as the three speakers I auditioned. I might be wrong about that! 

Well; I would most certainly still keep an open mind at this stage, i'm not quite sure in what way you mean when you say 'same league' but all I will say is, is that it's very easy to imagine what is really not what it appears to be and vice versa, as you have just found out...that's all.

Stephen Tate posted:

Daniel H. posted:

Stephen Tate posted:

Hi Daniel.

Have you heard the Neat Motive SX1 or SX2 yet? I would say at least give them a go... It's great that you're now actually auditioning some speakers and it sounds like you're getting a general feel for what really appeals to your good self.

Hi Stephen,

I haven't heard the Neats yet. I was thinking that maybe they were not in the same league as the three speakers I auditioned. I might be wrong about that! 

Well; I would most certainly still keep an open mind at this stage, i'm not quite sure in what way you mean when you say 'same league' but all I will say is, is that it's very easy to imagine what is really not what it appears to be and vice versa, as you have just found out...that's all.

 

 

By same league, I meant as good. The Neats are much less expensive than the ATC 19 and Harbeth 30.1. I figured they couldn't be better. Like I said, I could be wrong. It would be an interesting comparison for sure. 

Hmm, can a speaker costing some pretty serious cash sound better than a speaker costing a load more cash?  Yes, it can.  And often no it can't.  The amount of money something costs has no direct influence on its performance.  For some perspective here's the speakers I've used with the SN2, either owned or demoed.

Mission 752 Freedom £580 (a long time ago) - Owned

Proac D18 £2100 - Owned

Russell K Red 100 £1600 - Demo

Focal Aria 926 £2000 - Demo

PMC 25.23 £3295 - Demo

Kudos X3 - £2250 - Demo / Owned

Now watch what happens if I put them in order of preference and best performance first.

1. Kudos X3

2. Focal Aria 926

3. Russell K Red100

4. Mission 752 Freedom

5. Proac D18

6. PMC 25.23

It's all subjective and just my opinion, and boy do opinions vary, but the price tag itself seems to have little to do with it. 

Speaker choices and preferences will always be subjective, but agreed that cost alone doesn’t always mean a speaker is better or “in a different league” to another. I’ve used KEF R500 and more recently Spendor D7s with my old SN2. Over time I’ve found the Spendors to be too laid back and not great all rounders for all types of music. I’ve now demoed ATC SCM 40s and 19s at home (now with my 250DR) and they both completely trounce my Spendors. These both retail at a considerably cheaper price point than the Spendors. I’ve today ordered the 19s as they are a better match with my room size and not too overpowering on bass

Nice review Daniel. IIRC, forum member Joerand is using Ryan speakers, so perhaps he will comment. I heard the R610s at a local dealer last year, and thought they sounded great. Surprising bass extension for their size, and very impressive VFM. Am a little surprised the S610s are not out yet. A friend told me he heard them at the Axpona show last April.

SongStream posted:

Hmm, can a speaker costing some pretty serious cash sound better than a speaker costing a load more cash?  Yes, it can.  And often no it can't.  The amount of money something costs has no direct influence on its performance.  For some perspective here's the speakers I've used with the SN2, either owned or demoed.

Mission 752 Freedom £580 (a long time ago) - Owned

Proac D18 £2100 - Owned

Russell K Red 100 £1600 - Demo

Focal Aria 926 £2000 - Demo

PMC 25.23 £3295 - Demo

Kudos X3 - £2250 - Demo / Owned

Now watch what happens if I put them in order of preference and best performance first.

1. Kudos X3

2. Focal Aria 926

3. Russell K Red100

4. Mission 752 Freedom

5. Proac D18

6. PMC 25.23

It's all subjective and just my opinion, and boy do opinions vary, but the price tag itself seems to have little to do with it. 

 

I agree that the price might not reflect preference. Of the 3 speakers I reviewed, the least expensive one was my favorite. In order:

1. Ryan R610 $2600

2. Harbeth 30.1 $6000

3. ATC SCM19 $4500

I just might get out and audition the Neats! 

Hook posted:

Nice review Daniel. IIRC, forum member Joerand is using Ryan speakers, so perhaps he will comment. I heard the R610s at a local dealer last year, and thought they sounded great. Surprising bass extension for their size, and very impressive VFM. Am a little surprised the S610s are not out yet. A friend told me he heard them at the Axpona show last April.

The new Ryan S610 should be available in November according to Ryan. After Axpona in April, Ryan further tweaked the S610. That's why it isn't available yet. 

I agree that the Ryan speakers are great VFM. It's a shame they are not yet distributed in Europe (with the exception of one dealer). Our European friends might never get to hear them. 

Thanks for thinking of me @Hook. Yes, I'm loving my Ryan R620 (2.5 way floorstanders). They have the best bass response I've heard from a rear-ported speaker in my room (tight and fast with proper weight). A clean, crisp top end that's never strident. Excellent overall coherence. The Ryan mid-range timbres are not as velvety smooth as Harbeths, but the bottom end is certainly tighter. Ryans are not as clinically concise as SCM 19, but more engaging and won't leave you out in the cold.

When I brought home my 620 I plunked them down in the same spot my previous Totem speakers occupied. Almost a year later, I've yet to move the speakers and still have the factory jumpers in place. Maybe just dumb luck, but through the years I've had a dozen speakers home, some costing twice the price of the 620, and no others gelled as well with my room and amp for speed, timing and clarity. 

So how does my experience with the R620 relate to the R610? Only by parallel being the same brand. The 620 are 4-ohm and rather power demanding. I use them with a 200-W integrated. The 610 are 8-ohm and not highly sensitive.

All that said, Daniel's general findings between speaker makers are consistent with mine. I wouldn't be influenced by price. Ryan speakers are well constructed with a high quality sound competitive at twice their US price. My only negative is that Ryan's veneer quality, while acceptable, is not top grade.