Redundant NDS's - jump now or wait to be pushed?

Chag... posted:

I am wondering if the NDX value will drop as much when the NDX-2 starts to ship in a few short weeks. It might help the NDS to get back some colors - or not. ????

Chag -

Good times ahead!

Chag... posted:

I am wondering if the NDX value will drop as much when the NDX-2 starts to ship in a few short weeks. It might help the NDS to get back some colors - or not. ????

Chag -

NDX and NDS may drop in price, but IMO both are still very good - certainly I was thinking about moving from NDX > straight into NDX2, but I am not sure

the ND 555 is a great streamer but NDS is not that far behind

antony d posted:

Chag... posted:

I am wondering if the NDX value will drop as much when the NDX-2 starts to ship in a few short weeks. It might help the NDS to get back some colors - or not. ????

Chag -

NDX and NDS may drop in price, but IMO both are still very good - certainly I was thinking about moving from NDX > straight into NDX2, but I am not sure

the ND 555 is a great streamer but NDS is not that far behind

Absolutely, my NDS is going nowhere, it remains fantastic.  In another 5 years, which will disappear before you know it, the ND555 will be old hat and another new kid on the block will take its place... And so the world continues to revolve!

For those who agonise over whether to jump or not, let's face it, it's one of those nicer problems to have!????

Jason posted:

antony d posted:

Chag... posted:

I am wondering if the NDX value will drop as much when the NDX-2 starts to ship in a few short weeks. It might help the NDS to get back some colors - or not. ????

Chag -

NDX and NDS may drop in price, but IMO both are still very good - certainly I was thinking about moving from NDX > straight into NDX2, but I am not sure

the ND 555 is a great streamer but NDS is not that far behind

Absolutely, my NDS is going nowhere, it remains fantastic.  In another 5 years, which will disappear before you know it, the ND555 will be old hat and another new kid on the block will take its place... And so the world continues to revolve!

For those who agonise over whether to jump or not, let's face it, it's one of those nicer problems to have!????

Five years, eh Jason;  your patience amazes and inspires me.  I don't think I'd like to gamble on still being here and alive in five years time, let alone retaining my hearing for that long.  I'm afraid I subscribe to the school of thought that says "Life is unpredictable, so start with the sweet ".  

And just to add some justification for my own conscience... the ND555 does  sound very  sweet.

I saw one NDS sold over the weekend on a well known auction site for in excess of £4K, and with others advertised for even more, it may be that prices are already picking up. 

Clive B posted:

I saw one NDS sold over the weekend on a well known auction site for in excess of £4K, and with others advertised for even more, it may be that prices are already picking up. 

"I suppose it is inevitable that second hand values of NDSs will take a hit during the initial rush to the ND555, with a (temporary?) glut of NDSs on the market as owners dispose of them to part fund a ND555.

It is possible that this phnomenon might be a temporary one, as numbers of NDSs on the second hand market decreases when the initial dash to the ND555 subsides. There will be an initial spike in ND555 sales from the early adopter but this could settle to 'normal' levels for an esoteric and costly bit of kit.

If I am right and second hand NDSs rise then fall in availability, and considering the, admittedly one and only review so far, put the NDS a little ahead? of the NDX2, this could cause the value of second hand NDSs to hold up well, particularly if you agree that it is Naim's next best streamer in SQ terms after the ND555. I also suspect there aren't so many out there with £12k burning a hole in their pocket for a posh new streamer (excluding power supply).

Or is this a NDS owner deluding himself?"

Posted by yours truely on 8/8/18. Should've been an economist.

Spudgun posted:

Who would buy a used NDS knowing that you would also have to purchase a 555PS ( which by the way costs more than an NDX2 just on it’s own) to have a sound quality equivalent to the NDX2.  This will obviously reflect on trade-in values because the dealers wouldn’t be able to move them on either.  Not a great situation for us NDS owners.

We’ll have to wait and see if the NDX2 is any good I suppose.

 

Clear logic here. The key is the SQ comparison. It is indeed a sure thing that if NDS + 555 isnt a clear way above the cheaper new NDX2 on its own the cost of needing the both of them will like you say spell doom. I think reviews will definitely be comparing the models - a gauge of progress in the field.

Stating my interest here, Im awaiting NDX2 delivery. I bought an ex demo 555DR to power and tho there's better and worse 2nd hand 555 buys there's never any "steal".  But it may well be different with streamers - improvements can happen quickly in things where chips are important.

rjstaines posted:

When I was doing the maths to convince myself I could afford an ND555, I priced my NDS at £4,600 or thereabouts.  I listed it on that  auction site a few weeks ago, before the ND555 started shipping, hoping I'd still get 'top dollar' for it.   In the event, it sold for just £3,500  

I've been following the auction price of NDS's since then and, now that Naim seem to have resolved the couple of hiccups (lack of burndies and lack of outer 500 series cases) and are beginning to ship serious numbers of 555's, I'm seeing the price of used NDS's dropping.

If I still had my NDS, should I be jumping to list it now, or should I wait for prices to (hopefully) recover in a few months time?   For me this is academic, but how about you, do you have one to sell?  ...and how important is it's resale value in the funding of your new purchase?

 

If resale value is a concern, don't buy audio equipment.  Buy what you can afford and enjoy it for a lifetime.  Focus on the music and you will enjoy.  Focus on the gear and you will have anxiety. 

pacmi03 posted:

rjstaines posted:

When I was doing the maths to convince myself I could afford an ND555, I priced my NDS at £4,600 or thereabouts.  I listed it on that  auction site a few weeks ago, before the ND555 started shipping, hoping I'd still get 'top dollar' for it.   In the event, it sold for just £3,500  

I've been following the auction price of NDS's since then and, now that Naim seem to have resolved the couple of hiccups (lack of burndies and lack of outer 500 series cases) and are beginning to ship serious numbers of 555's, I'm seeing the price of used NDS's dropping.

If I still had my NDS, should I be jumping to list it now, or should I wait for prices to (hopefully) recover in a few months time?   For me this is academic, but how about you, do you have one to sell?  ...and how important is it's resale value in the funding of your new purchase?

 

If resale value is a concern, don't buy audio equipment.  Buy what you can afford and enjoy it for a lifetime.  Focus on the music and you will enjoy.  Focus on the gear and you will have anxiety. 

It was actually resale value that got me to ditch my Classé amplification and switch to Naim.  It was only after I had dipped my toe into the Naim amplification pool that I began to realise that what I was hearing was something remarkable... and thus began a journey through the range, culminating in the inevitable 552/500, all the time with the comfort of knowing that, unlike my Classé kit which tumbled 80% as it left the shop, my Naim residual was a whole lot higher,  thus easing the pathway to the top of the range  (well almost the top - I know my limits and Statement is always going to be a 'no-no').

And that's the point, this 'easing of the upgrade pathway'.  I accept the fact that I have upgradeitis and there is no known cure for this adiction, so for me residual values will always figure (alongside SQ)  in purchase decisions.      Oh, and you're quite right pacmi03, a degree of anxiety accompanies my adiction    

Five years, eh Jason;  your patience amazes and inspires me.  I don't think I'd like to gamble on still being here and alive in five years time, let alone retaining my hearing for that long.  I'm afraid I subscribe to the school of thought that says "Life is unpredictable, so start with the sweet ".  

And just to add some justification for my own conscience... the ND555 does  sound very  sweet.

Roger,

Don't worry, your evident passion for music and fine audio reproduction will undoubtedly drive you on to have many years enjoyment of your new ND555, and I have no doubt you will thoroughly enjoy it.  You have a truly remarkable system there!

All the best,

Jason.

Jason posted:

 

Don't worry, your evident passion for music and fine audio reproduction will undoubtedly drive you on to have many years enjoyment of your new ND555, and I have no doubt you will thoroughly enjoy it.  You have a truly remarkable system there!

All the best,

Jason.

Thank you Jason.  Such words from the pen (keyboard) of a man of great foresight are much appreciated.

Eight days and counting ...................... where's that beer you were going to email to me?  

Resale value + availability of gently used hardware + great performance = great value for the consumer.  I'm quite happy having chosen Naim in this regard. Sure, overall, we all could be "spending less."  But to me, great value lies in something that every time I use it, wear it, drive it, etc., it makes me smile and think, "I'm enjoying this watch/suit/car/hi fi . . . "

In my old age, I care less about wringing the last $500 out of the trade-in, or if something new will come along in 18 months, and more about enjoyment 'in the now.'  My recent hi fi spend has totally re-energized my enjoyment of music at home and so this is just one data point for those contemplating "the plunge!"

I don't think that the perception that the NDX2 is within a whisker of the NDS's performance is helping used values much.

I suspect there are many people (like me!) are mulling over the next move, even if in reality we are delighted with what we already have!  In my case I have an NDX and am running it bare, without an additional PSU..

There are many of us using NDX's bare, and jolly good they are used like that.  There seem to be mixed opinions as to the merit of adding PSU's to the NDX.  These range from people in the 'night and day' differences to 'not much of an upgrade' camp.  I suspect the reality is somewhere between the two.  

For bare NDX users there is a need to purchase a PSU before an NDS can be introduced.  This makes an NDX2 (bare) an attractive proposition.  For very similar money (or less) to adding an XPS2 to the existing NDX one can have a shiny new NDX2 which by all accounts will be an appreciable upgrade over the old model.  No extra shelf required too.  It will have a longer supported life span over NDX/NDS with the new platform and nice screen.  In the future a 555ps will bring the performance to close to NDS so there is a way to upgrade in the future.

I'd love to buy a used NDS, for the money it's a steal but for me the blocker is the power supply requirement.  This may be the case for others too.  It may explain why CDS3's sell for not much more money than CDX2's as the situation is similar.

Picking up on Richards comment last week how well does an NDS perform with an XPS2 or even XP5xs?

Maybe I should just add a DAC to the NDX!

trickydickie posted:

I suspect there are many people (like me!) are mulling over the next move, even if in reality we are delighted with what we already have!  In my case I have an NDX and am running it bare, without an additional PSU..

Hi [@mention:4945617440112637] nice to hear your thoughts on your possible upgrade path.

It was nice to meet you in Salisbury on our mutual visit a couple of years ago, indeed I remember having a similar conversation with you then.

I am like you, mulling over my next move, despite my current satisfaction with  my NDX + XPS DR! I was very close to buying a pre loved NDS for a great price a month ago but held off because I wanted to hear the NDX2. I will get to do that in a week or so’s time when my dealer will have an NDX2 event which I’m looking forward to. Hopefully I’ll get to borrow one on home demo in the not too distant too. 

I do keep on flip flopping in my mind between sticking with what I have because it is actually really great, a used NDS at a good price because it is 2nd best streamer in the Naim range now, or NDX2 because it will be a step up from my current NDX & the new feature-set future proofs me should anything ever happen to Tidal, my streaming service of choice. There’s also the 555PS to consider as a further upgrade.

maybe I’ll just go and get another glass of wine and listen to some more music....!

cheers, Chris

ChrisH posted:

trickydickie posted:

I suspect there are many people (like me!) are mulling over the next move, even if in reality we are delighted with what we already have!  In my case I have an NDX and am running it bare, without an additional PSU..

Hi [@mention:4945617440112637] nice to hear your thoughts on your possible upgrade path.

It was nice to meet you in Salisbury on our mutual visit a couple of years ago, indeed I remember having a similar conversation with you then.

I am like you, mulling over my next move, despite my current satisfaction with  my NDX + XPS DR! I was very close to buying a pre loved NDS for a great price a month ago but held off because I wanted to hear the NDX2. I will get to do that in a week or so’s time when my dealer will have an NDX2 event which I’m looking forward to. Hopefully I’ll get to borrow one on home demo in the not too distant too. 

I do keep on flip flopping in my mind between sticking with what I have because it is actually really great, a used NDS at a good price because it is 2nd best streamer in the Naim range now, or NDX2 because it will be a step up from my current NDX & the new feature-set future proofs me should anything ever happen to Tidal, my streaming service of choice. There’s also the 555PS to consider as a further upgrade.

maybe I’ll just go and get another glass of wine and listen to some more music....!

cheers, Chris

I would go for the last option. This would leave you with enough funds to invest in NDX2, NDS or wine once the pros and contras of these alternatives have been sorted out. Perhaps in the meanwhile there will also be a DAC2 to make things more complicated. Or perhaps easier. Good luck, nbpf

Had a chat with Naim distributor here. Great talk with a Naim guru about source first, pre amps and streamer. To sum it up: I‘m in the Naim camp again if budget and WAF says ok. So the NDX2 with XPS is better than NDS, NDX2 with 555 PSU beats NDS with 555 by a mile, much more space, more open, more details and a nailed soundstage. That‘s the way I want to go. ND555 must be from another planet - many customer call him and say how incredible good this new reference streamer is! 

Having an ndx with 555ps. My obvious demo will be nds vs ndx2 both powered with 555. My dealer has a demo ndx2........ Just need to set up the demo.......... Can't wait

True Blue posted:

Having an ndx with 555ps. My obvious demo will be nds vs ndx2 both powered with 555. My dealer has a demo ndx2........ Just need to set up the demo.......... Can't wait

That will be a very interesting comparison True Blue. Look forward to your feedback.

With streaming technologies that goes obsolete in just 4-5 years, the ideal of used Naim boxes holding its value no longer holds true for these products. 

Sorry to be a cold blanket but in 2-3 years, the legacy streamers like NDS, NDX and yes even the "recent" 272 can possibly be almost dead meat. There is even no guarantee that Spotifty, Tidal will continue to work. I have an NDX at the moment and for this reason, I would not even get an NDS at any price. (sorry to existing NDS owners). IF you are new to streaming and would like to have a go, then a used NDX/NDS now may be worth a try provided you can get it cheap and perhaps have a ownership horizon of just 2 years or so?

Due to the short product life of these boxes, unless Naim can guarantee that the streaming interface is fully future proof, I find it hard to justify the kind of money for ND555 and even NDX2.

Perhaps a better option is to get an ND5XS2 + NDAC. ?

engjoo posted:

Sorry to be a cold blanket but in 2-3 years, the legacy streamers like NDS, NDX and yes even the "recent" 272 can possibly be almost dead meat. There is even no guarantee that Spotifty, Tidal will continue to work. I have an NDX at the moment and for this reason, I would not even get an NDS at any price. (sorry to existing NDS owners).

Sorry to heat your blanket up, but the key part of the legacy streamers and date I suggest the new streamers  is home streaming.. after all for many that is where the best SQ lies. Home streaming uses UPnP/DLNA and also a closed Naim version of it if you which. UPnP has been around for many years and I can’t see inexplicably ceasing to work in a few years time.. and after all that is what the new streamers use too.

if say in 10 years the home audio consumer industry mysteriously turned its back on DLNA, then there is the closed Naim streaming solution... assuming all the current non Naim implementations mysteriously stopped working. 

The external web streaming interface integrations are for convenience, and indeed may come and go over 20 years or so... however those who are serious about services tend to use aggregator proxies (like Bubble UPnP Server) to use these services ... and that makes them suitable for Naim and many other platforms really easily whilst providing the best SQ.

Absolutely. They way most people use their streamers will be identical on the old and new ones and sound quality is likely to be the only consideration between the two for a large percentage.

Streaming is my only source so I take it pretty seriously. But functionally, the new products provide me nothing I am currently lacking or interested in. 

I expect the resale value of the streamers to stabilise. And if they don't, I may just be tempted to make off with a low cost NDS. I also think the drop in value is overstated due to unrealistic expectations. If you compare to the resale value of the CDS when new iterations appeared, they did not exactly hold up above 50% either. I'm not seeing anything unusual in the price movements and the odd dirt cheap NDS does not constitute a trend.

dave marshall posted:

Eight days and counting ...................... where's that beer you were going to email to me?  

Those buggers at the e-post office must have nicked it, Dave     (After all, it's only 100 days to Christmas, and you can never prepare too early)

True Blue posted:

Having an ndx with 555ps. My obvious demo will be nds vs ndx2 both powered with 555. My dealer has a demo ndx2........ Just need to set up the demo.......... Can't wait

But does your dealer have an NDS available for the comparison? And if you preferred the NDS, would you feel compelled to buy that example from your dealer or would you explore other opportunities, potentially at more favourable prices. A buyer’s market for sure. 

engjoo posted:

With streaming technologies that goes obsolete in just 4-5 years, the ideal of used Naim boxes holding its value no longer holds true for these products. 

Sorry to be a cold blanket but in 2-3 years, the legacy streamers like NDS, NDX and yes even the "recent" 272 can possibly be almost dead meat. There is even no guarantee that Spotifty, Tidal will continue to work. I have an NDX at the moment and for this reason, I would not even get an NDS at any price. (sorry to existing NDS owners). IF you are new to streaming and would like to have a go, then a used NDX/NDS now may be worth a try provided you can get it cheap and perhaps have a ownership horizon of just 2 years or so?

Due to the short product life of these boxes, unless Naim can guarantee that the streaming interface is fully future proof, I find it hard to justify the kind of money for ND555 and even NDX2.

Perhaps a better option is to get an ND5XS2 + NDAC. ?

This is why, generally speaking, I prefer to keep transport and digital-to-analogue conversion on different devices. Still, it is possible that the NDS was a bit of a special beast because, in about the same time period, other companies have managed to integrate Roon, Tidal, Qobuz, Spotify, etc. in their network players without the agonizing pain. I have never considered buying an NDS (either new or second hand) and I will probably not be a a NDX2 (let apart ND555) owner either. Stll, I find these devices much more interesting than NDX and NDS and I will probably demo a NDX2 at a certain point. I still hope that Naim will come out with a DAC2 and/or improve their software platform. In my view, this is at the moment the weakest link and the main obstacle towards adopting Naim sources.