Naim Core....using the SPDIF output direct into a DAC, INSTEAD of going through a streamer

The Core is a ripper only it does not have a Internet radio facility.

I use my Core via s/pdif into a Naim DAC.  It sounds really good.  Using the Core this way as a digital player into a DAC is certainly not just viable but highly recommendable if you aren't so interested in streaming services. It is at least as good, and likely even better than my favoured Meridian CD transport into the same DAC.  

As to whether you will get the Same quality of sound and level of detail as the ND555, well, the ND555 is likely one of the finest DAC/streamers available anywhere, so you would need a DAC of at least that kind of quality.  It could be argued that s/pdif is a limiting factor, but Naim use BNCs which overcome many issues, and with a suitable good quality BNC - BNC coaxial cable any issues should be minimised.

vintageaxeman posted:

Hi folks.

I am considering a Naim Core to do 2 things:

1. Rip my CDs

2. Listen to internet radio.

I understand that I can control the Core directly from the Naim on from my iPad, BUT my question is this:

Question: I recently listened to 44.1/16 CD tracks ripped & stored on a Naim Core, through a Naim ND555. It sounded wonderful. There were aspects of the sound which were definitely better than I would normally expect coming from 44.1/16 discs played on a CD Player.  But I can't afford a streamer at this point, certainly not an ND555.  So if I used the Core's SPDIF output directly through a good DAC into my system, am I going to get the same quality of sound and level of detail WITHOUT using a streamer?

Thank you!

The Naim Core will rip your CDs but if you decide to rip to .WAV files it will use a proprietary database to store the associated metadata with no possibility of exporting to a standard format. The Core does not provide access to internet radio or internet streaming services. On the usage of the Core as a SPDIF player, see the above post by Richard Dane. If you are looking for a server+ripping station with SPDIF output you could also consider the Innuos MK3 ZEN Mini. If you decide to rip your CDs with a laptop and only need a server+player, you could also consider the Allo DigiOne Signature: running MinimServer and upmpdcli on the RPi that hosts the DigiOne Signature will give you a UPnP server+renderer with access to Qobuz, Tidal and internet radio. I am not aware of any serious comparisons between the SPDIF outputs of Naim Core, Allo DigiOne Signature and Innuos MK3 ZEN Mini.

Pcd posted:

The Core is a ripper only it does not have a Internet radio facility.

Thanks, PCD.

But doesn't just having the Core enable me to use the Naim app on my iPad and therefore to access internet radio using ethernet and play it through my DAC?

Richard Dane posted:

I use my Core via s/pdif into a Naim DAC.  It sounds really good.  Using the Core this way as a digital player into a DAC is certainly not just viable but highly recommendable if you aren't so interested in streaming services. It is at least as good, and likely even better than my favoured Meridian CD transport into the same DAC.  

As to whether you will get the Same quality of sound and level of detail as the ND555, well, the ND555 is likely one of the finest DAC/streamers available anywhere, so you would need a DAC of at least that kind of quality.  It could be argued that s/pdif is a limiting factor, but Naim use BNCs which overcome many issues, and with a suitable good quality BNC - BNC coaxial cable any issues should be minimised.

Thanks, Richard.

But am I correct in thinking that accessing the Core from an ND555 to play rippped CDs actually means that it is only really using the ND555 via ethernet to feed the internal DAC part of the ND555?

So if I used a Naim DAC or similar with the Core for the same purpose, would the SQ be limited by the SPDIF connection?

It's a balance.  It's generally accepted, and at least felt by Naim, that properly implemented streaming potentially outperforms s/pdif.  Against that, you will need to buy a streamer and the networks (often far from optimum) used by streaming users can provide operational frustrations and even limitations on performance.  So it depends what you want, what are your circumstances, and how you want to best use your budget.

Personally, my internet here is so up and down that using any streaming services is hugely frustrating. Even i-radio can be poor.  It just takes a few days a month where the internet keeps dropping to make it a poor choice. However, I do use streaming all-in-ones for casual listening around the house.  But for the main music room it's either vinyl replay, tape reel, or Core via s/pdif into the DAC. Barring a power cut, all are stable and sound really good.  In this mode the core only needs an ethernet connection for accessing dB info, comms with the App on iPhone or iPad, and for sometimes serving to the other streaming devices in the home.

All music ripped on my Core is in WAV - that way I at least have no doubts about whether there's any SQ loss going FLAC.  I also rip via DBpoweramp on an old IBM Lenovo, which also has all downloads etc... this gives me a second backup and also gives me files for use on portable units - onto USB stciks.  It's also the best place for editing metadata, tidying up, splitting CDs with multiple albums etc..  It's a sort of digital workshop.  The finished files are then placed onto a 1TB portable hard drive which is attached to the Core and the Core sees these in much the same way it would its own internally ripped files. Note that the Core is purely a server or digital player.  It does not stream or do streaming services, i-radio etc.. For this you would use a streamer or other suitable device such as i device connected to DAC.

vintageaxeman posted:

Pcd posted:

The Core is a ripper only it does not have a Internet radio facility.

Thanks, PCD.

But doesn't just having the Core enable me to use the Naim app on my iPad and therefore to access internet radio using ethernet and play it through my DAC?

No, the Naim app will just access iRadio on a Naim streamer if you have one.

When the Unitiserve was released, it had no iRadio - it was added at a later date. It's not impossible that Naim might choose to do this with the Core too, but I wouldn't bet on it. If this is important, you might also look at an Innuos ripper/server instead, as these have iRadio as well as Tidal, Qobuz, Spotify, BBC iPlayer and Roon built in.

@Vintageaxeman - If I were you I would take my time and get to really understand your options before putting out money for the Core.  I say this as someone who was totally new to this form of music replay a few years ago myself.

First, much of what you were hearing was the ND555; that was the dac you were hearing; the Core was "just" the transport (responsible for getting data to the dac, so to speak).  While yes transports do all sound different, I would posit that the dac is MORE critical to what you hear. In any event, don't give undue credit to the Core itself when it was playing to a ND555.

Second, the Core as a 'server' or 'player' uses Naim's own software and frankly there are several critical limitations to it.  First, it rips cd's to .wav format with no embedded metadata.  If you stay with the Core forever, that's ok.  But if you ever want to migrate your library to a different server, it's definitely a pain.  Yes it will convert those files to the industry-standard flac format, but the metadata still is quite deficient.  Second, that software, compared to what else is out in the industry (Asset, MinimServer, J River, etc etc) is quite limited in its ability to let you chose how you see your collection presented to you.  You have very limited control over the metadata and how you use it to provide your music library to you in the Naim App in a way that you find intuitive. It's definitely 'the Naim way' only.  This may be fine, or fine for a while . . . but I for one ultimately found it far to limiting and sold off my Naim server in favor of a nas running Asset server.

Bart, to be clear, you can choose between ripping to FLAC or WAV on the Core.  

Richard Dane posted:

Bart, to be clear, you can choose between ripping to FLAC or WAV on the Core.  

Thanks Richard -- good point that I was wrong that 'conversion' is needed.  Can rip to flac from the get-go.

vintageaxeman posted:

Richard Dane posted:

I use my Core via s/pdif into a Naim DAC.  It sounds really good.  Using the Core this way as a digital player into a DAC is certainly not just viable but highly recommendable if you aren't so interested in streaming services. It is at least as good, and likely even better than my favoured Meridian CD transport into the same DAC.  

As to whether you will get the Same quality of sound and level of detail as the ND555, well, the ND555 is likely one of the finest DAC/streamers available anywhere, so you would need a DAC of at least that kind of quality.  It could be argued that s/pdif is a limiting factor, but Naim use BNCs which overcome many issues, and with a suitable good quality BNC - BNC coaxial cable any issues should be minimised.

Thanks, Richard.

But am I correct in thinking that accessing the Core from an ND555 to play rippped CDs actually means that it is only really using the ND555 via ethernet to feed the internal DAC part of the ND555?

So if I used a Naim DAC or similar with the Core for the same purpose, would the SQ be limited by the SPDIF connection?

The ND555 is a DAC with three inputs: 1) Ethernet, 2) USB and 3) S/PDIF.

1) If you only use its Ethernet input you will need a UPnP server (like the one running in a Naim Core, Asset, MinimServer, etc.) in your LAN or an internet connection. In either case you use the Naim app to tell the ND555 which files to fetch (from the UPnP server or from providers of internet streaming services) and send to the DAC stage of the ND555.

2) If you also use its USB inputs (by connecting a USB drive to the device) you will need to start the UPnP server of the ND555. This will make the contents of the drive available to the ND555 itself and to other devices on your LAN. In this case you do not need (but you can have) any other UPnP server in your LAN: the ND555 runs both a UPnP server and a UPnP renderer. As in 1), you use the Naim App to tell the ND555 which files to fetch (from the UPnP server running on the ND555, from UPnP servers in your LAN or from providers of internet streaming services) and send to the DAC stage of the ND555.

3) if you connect a S/PDIF transport (CD player, Naim Core, Allo DigiOne and DigiOne Signature, InnuOS Zen Mini Mk3, any computer with an USB to S/PDIF interface) to the S/PDIF input of the ND555, you will need to select the S/PDIF input on the ND555. In this case the ND555 becomes a passive DAC and you control the data that arrive at the DAC stage of the ND555 by controlling the transport. If this is a CD player, you use the player's remote control. If it is a Naim Core, you use the Naim app. If it is an Allo Digione running a UPnP server and upmpdcli, you use a UPnP control point like BubbleUPnP, Linn Kazoo, etc. If it is an headless computer running Audirvana, you use the A+Remote control app. And so on.

An S/PDIF connection is a limit to the resolution of the data stream (typically to 24/192) not to the sound quality. The sound quality depends, as always, on the quality of the source, of the connection and of the S/PDIF interface of the DAC.

I use an Allo DigiOne connected to a Naim DAC via DC1. The RPi that hosts the DigiOne runs MinimServer and upmpdcli and is connected to a 1TB USB drive that contains my whole music collection. I control replay through the DigiOne+DAC (or through any other networked UPnP renderer) using BubbleUPnP or Linn Kazoo.

Richard Dane posted:

Bart, to be clear, you can choose between ripping to FLAC or WAV on the Core.  

True but then the Core cannot transcode to WAV, to the best of my knowledge.

Richard, Bart, Chris, PCD & NBPF....

Many,many thanks for your very helpful information which you have clearly taken so much care in putting together for me. I am really going to have to try and assimilate all of this, as it is very new to me, being a seasoned vinyl & CD user, but never having ventured into rips, downloads, Flacs & WAVs etc, etc, before! Again, many thanks! 

vintageaxeman posted:

Richard, Bart, Chris, PCD & NBPF....

Many,many thanks for your very helpful information which you have clearly taken so much care in putting together for me. I am really going to have to try and assimilate all of this, as it is very new to me, being a seasoned vinyl & CD user, but never having ventured into rips, downloads, Flacs & WAVs etc, etc, before! Again, many thanks! 

You are welcome! If you do not already have a music collection in the form of .flac, .wav or .aiff files and are looking for advice on how to tag and organize such data, you could also have a look at the documentation of MinimServer, in particular sections "Your music library" and "Browsing your library". No matter how you will rip your CDs, investing some time into tagging your collection in a way that fits your musical interests will pay off. This is particularly true if you (are going to) have a lot of classical music: the standard search indexes Artist, Genre, Composer and Album are not enough for classical music. Ideally, browsing your music and selecting an album to play should be as satisfactory as (and hopefully faster and more comfortable than) picking up a record sleeve from your shelves.

I can’t help jumping in and commenting as the new owner of a Naim Uniti Core.  I am finding all sorts of limitations that as a complete novice to streaming  I never considered when I plunked down the very considerable dollars for a Uniti Core.  I’m disappointed that it’s really only a ripper with an app to play music.  I’m disappointed its only output is BNC.  I am disappointed that it doesn’t do MQA. It doesn’t do native DSD, nor even very high res DSD.    I’m disappointed that there are no apps or obvious means to access and use Tidal or Deezer or the just announced Primephonic, and others.  If I had it to do over, I would use my nearly unused corei7 Windows desktop as a server.

nbpf posted:

Richard Dane posted:

Bart, to be clear, you can choose between ripping to FLAC or WAV on the Core.  

True but then the Core cannot transcode to WAV, to the best of my knowledge.

True, still a pity if you ask me ...

Echolane posted:

I can’t help jumping in and commenting as the new owner of a Naim Uniti Core.  I am finding all sorts of limitations that as a complete novice to streaming  I never considered when I plunked down the very considerable dollars for a Uniti Core.  I’m disappointed that it’s really only a ripper with an app to play music.  I’m disappointed its only output is BNC.  I am disappointed that it doesn’t do MQA. It doesn’t do native DSD, nor even very high res DSD.    I’m disappointed that there are no apps or obvious means to access and use Tidal or Deezer or the just announced Primephonic, and others.  If I had it to do over, I would use my nearly unused corei7 Windows desktop as a server.

I read up on the Core and Naim's website and it's fairly obvious what it does.  I did this because it was a consideration for a short while but I decided to get a ND5XS instead and retain my current NAS/Media Server.

Well I love my Core,even though it is quirky.I can’t wait to try it’s BNC out into a Chord M-scaler/Hugo TT2...try THAT with a NAS.

Echolane posted:

I can’t help jumping in and commenting as the new owner of a Naim Uniti Core.  I am finding all sorts of limitations that as a complete novice to streaming  I never considered when I plunked down the very considerable dollars for a Uniti Core.  I’m disappointed that it’s really only a ripper with an app to play music.  I’m disappointed its only output is BNC.  I am disappointed that it doesn’t do MQA. It doesn’t do native DSD, nor even very high res DSD.    I’m disappointed that there are no apps or obvious means to access and use Tidal or Deezer or the just announced Primephonic, and others.  If I had it to do over, I would use my nearly unused corei7 Windows desktop as a server.

No dealer demo ???

Richard Dane posted:

It's a balance.  It's generally accepted, and at least felt by Naim, that properly implemented streaming potentially outperforms s/pdif.  

 

Ohh Richard, I am not so sure... yes with the current Naim portfolio that path might lead to the best outcome, but generally physical  decoupling is seen as the best way forward and I know Naim designers are very aware of that .. so an synchronous network streamer physically decoupled from a DAC using an SPDIF/ AES EBU interface would generally be considered the best way for optimum SQ up to 192/24/2 media with all other things being equal. So in the Naim world that would almost certainly be a ND555 feeding another ND555 by SPDIF. I am sure ultimately that combo would provide the best SQ from that product... if not simply because of system theory... but is it practical, or  I suspect minute increase SQ economically practically justified... but that is a different matter.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Richard Dane posted:

It's a balance.  It's generally accepted, and at least felt by Naim, that properly implemented streaming potentially outperforms s/pdif.  

 

Ohh Richard, I am not so sure... yes with the current Naim portfolio that path might lead to the best outcome, but generally physical  decoupling is seen as the best way forward and I know Naim designers are very aware of that .. so an synchronous network streamer physically decoupled from a DAC using an SPDIF/ AES EBU interface would generally be considered the best way for optimum SQ up to 192/24/2 media with all other things being equal. So in the Naim world that would almost certainly be a ND555 feeding another ND555 by SPDIF. I am sure ultimately that combo would provide the best SQ from that product... if not simply because of system theory... but is it practical, or  I suspect minute increase SQ economically practically justified... but that is a different matter.

I am not sure that one can switch off the NP800 when the ND555 is used as a pure DAC. Or, conversely, that one can switch off the DAC board when the ND555 is used as a transport. 

But, apart from this technical aspect, for me the choice of a system is not just a matter of performance but also of practicability and of avoidance of redundancies: I would non like to have a system in which a ND555 is fed by another ND555.

I have listened to the ND555 and it is absolutely fascinating. I could afford one but still, it is unlikely that I will become a ND555 owner. For this, functionalities, software and documentation would have to be significantly improved.

On the other hand, if Naim would come out with an nDAC2, I would almost certainly consider upgrading my old nDAC.  

Echolane posted:

No dealer demo ???

No, no dealer demo.  It wouldn’t have helped anyway, I was far too naive.  Ripping/streaming is  a major new concept, loaded with foreign acronyms.   What did I know about WAV, FLAC, AIFF, etc, or PCM,, MQA, DSD and the myriad ways a DAC is programmed and sounds SINCE I’d never bought a DAC before.   Ripping and streaming sound dead easy in concept, but then you get into the details and there is a lot to learn.

Get a new dealer! They are supposed to be there to help you, and to find a system that works for you. 

CHRISSU posted.

Get a new dealer! They are supposed to be there to help you, and to find a system that works for you. 

Very much agreed when I ordered my Core the dealer would not take a deposit  we went right through the functionality of the Core to ensure I was OK to proceed with the purchase.

The Core was installed and payment was made when I was happy with it in my system.

My ND555 was installed yesterday nearly as much time was spent showing me the basic workings of the ND555 and too ensure that the rest of the system functioned as it should do.

I had a DAC V1 connected via BNC output on my NDX for headphone duties the installation engineer noticed this was not working from the BNC output of the ND555 as it did with the NDX.

After investigating this problem he found that you had to switch the ND555 output to BNC to facilitate this function then back to the Din output for other listening and to be fair I think I would have been lost trying to fathom this out.

As the old saying goes a good dealer is worth his weight in gold.

I have a stupid question...if you have already ripped your music on NAS and transfer this to Core (both inIpnp mode)- will you hear a difference if anything ( cables, etc) stays the same?

Thanks!