Naim Core....using the SPDIF output direct into a DAC, INSTEAD of going through a streamer

No. 

hungryhalibut posted:

No. 

+1

Thanks!!

nbpf posted:

On the other hand, if Naim would come out with an nDAC2, I would almost certainly consider upgrading my old nDAC.  

I'm in complete agreement with nbpf on this subject. Come on Naim! Where's the nDAC2????

Chris

T38.45 posted:

I have a stupid question...if you have already ripped your music on NAS and transfer this to Core (both inIpnp mode)- will you hear a difference if anything ( cables, etc) stays the same?

If your UPnP media server is on the same platform, but your are simply changing where your media files are stored and accessed by your UPnP media server, them almost certainly there will be no audible change.

If you are changing UPnP multimedia server into a closed system legacy architecture streamer (NDX/ NDS/272) etc.. then yes you may well hear changes. I have analyzed this and I have found correlation between inter frame timing variation over Ethernet has a sonic signature. Not dissimilar potentially to the differences one can hear between WAV and FLAC. Different media servers on different platforms exhibit these changes. I have found decoupling the DAC from the streamer largely decoupled of this.

T38.45 posted:

I have a stupid question...if you have already ripped your music on NAS and transfer this to Core (both inIpnp mode)- will you hear a difference if anything ( cables, etc) stays the same?

Thanks!

I think you may find subtle differences in the sound, which you may or may not prefer. If you’re hoping for a £2k improvement, you may be better off spending the money elsewhere in your system. 

Echolane posted:

No dealer demo ???

No, no dealer demo.  It wouldn’t have helped anyway, I was far too naive.  Ripping/streaming is  a major new concept, loaded with foreign acronyms.   What did I know about WAV, FLAC, AIFF, etc, or PCM,, MQA, DSD and the myriad ways a DAC is programmed and sounds SINCE I’d never bought a DAC before.   Ripping and streaming sound dead easy in concept, but then you get into the details and there is a lot to learn.

This is one of the advantages of the Core though. You don't need to know any of this. Have the dealer set it up, put CDs in. They rip and store, you play them. Simple. No computers to complicate things and great source first sound quality, no future upgrades required.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted: 

So in the Naim world that would almost certainly be a ND555 feeding another ND555 by SPDIF. 

Should we consider keeping our NDS that have lost a large part of their market value as renderer, or alternatively as DAC connected to the ND555? Could one of these two options SQ outperformed a standalone ND555?  ????

Chag -

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Richard Dane posted:

It's a balance.  It's generally accepted, and at least felt by Naim, that properly implemented streaming potentially outperforms s/pdif.  

 

Ohh Richard, I am not so sure... yes with the current Naim portfolio that path might lead to the best outcome, but generally physical  decoupling is seen as the best way forward and I know Naim designers are very aware of that .. so an synchronous network streamer physically decoupled from a DAC using an SPDIF/ AES EBU interface would generally be considered the best way for optimum SQ up to 192/24/2 media with all other things being equal. ...

Interesting that you mention that. Esoteric have gone for this approach. Their top end streaming front end N-03T is a rendering transport only (no DAC). Taken to extremes, their top streamer is a 4 box source, N-03T streamer transport,  Grandioso G1 master clock generator, and Grandioso D1 monobloc DACs.

Whether that is a better approach with less compromises than Naim's external PSU philosophy remains to be heard. But it is certainly in interesting approach.

Interesting products. Like Naim, their top end CD player even uses an external PSU with... wait for it... twin burndies!

feeling_zen posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Richard Dane posted:

It's a balance.  It's generally accepted, and at least felt by Naim, that properly implemented streaming potentially outperforms s/pdif.  

 

Ohh Richard, I am not so sure... yes with the current Naim portfolio that path might lead to the best outcome, but generally physical  decoupling is seen as the best way forward and I know Naim designers are very aware of that .. so an synchronous network streamer physically decoupled from a DAC using an SPDIF/ AES EBU interface would generally be considered the best way for optimum SQ up to 192/24/2 media with all other things being equal. ...

Interesting that you mention that. Esoteric have gone for this approach. Their top end streaming front end N-03T is a rendering transport only (no DAC). Taken to extremes, their top streamer is a 4 box source, N-03T streamer transport,  Grandioso G1 master clock generator, and Grandioso D1 monobloc DACs.

Whether that is a better approach with less compromises than Naim's external PSU philosophy remains to be heard. But it is certainly in interesting approach.

Interesting products. Like Naim, their top end CD player even uses an external PSU with... wait for it... twin burndies!

Don't give up hope just yet, the new Naim streamers all have SPDIF out!

Chag... posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted: 

So in the Naim world that would almost certainly be a ND555 feeding another ND555 by SPDIF. 

Should we consider keeping our NDS that have lost a large part of their market value as renderer, or alternatively as DAC connected to the ND555? Could one of these two options SQ outperformed a standalone ND555?  

It certainly would be interesting... I have found the best results above everything is when I use a Naim streamer transport  ... in SPDIF transport mode (in settings) .. where the DAC and analogue stages are disabled, and then use a separate DAC via SPDIF, with a healthy ferrite choke around the SPDIF shield... sounds absolutely first class and is the closest way I get to enjoy my  music... it also 99% decouples me from faffing around with FLAC, WAV, Ethernet leads etc... (but I admit there is a residual 1%... )

In discussing with Naim at Salisbury there was a nagging doubt created to what extent the new streamers tightened the SPDIF transport clock stability compared to the older streamers that did this very well indeed. I have not evaluated this myself yet, but  I might simply have been talking to someone who was not yet fully informed.

SPDIF is a nice point to point network transport protocol with low processing demands ...  prefereable compared to USB and definitely TCP if interfacing to a DAC... in my opinion, but only when the SPDIF transport clock is clean and stable to minimise intermodulation cross talk in the receiver/DAC.

Mike Sullivan posted

This is one of the advantages of the Core though. You don't need to know any of this. Have the dealer set it up, put CDs in. They rip and store, you play them. Simple. No computers to complicate things ...

But the Core is a computer ...........  

I think you mean it’s not a general use programmable computer... and yes most would agree... I suggest you would be better of with a laptop running Windows or OSX if you wanted that. 

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Chag... posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted: 

So in the Naim world that would almost certainly be a ND555 feeding another ND555 by SPDIF. 

Should we consider keeping our NDS that have lost a large part of their market value as renderer, or alternatively as DAC connected to the ND555? Could one of these two options SQ outperformed a standalone ND555?  

It certainly would be interesting... I have found the best results above everything is when I use a Naim streamer transport  ... in SPDIF transport mode (in settings) .. where the DAC and analogue stages are disabled, and then use a separate DAC via SPDIF, with a healthy ferrite choke around the SPDIF shield... sounds absolutely first class and is the closest way I get to enjoy my  music... it also 99% decouples me from faffing around with FLAC, WAV, Ethernet leads etc...

In https://forums.naimaudio.com/t...lo-digione-signature Michael1702 is planning to compare

1) Ethernet > NDX2

to

2) Ethernet > Allo DigiOne Signature > DC1 > nDAC

I would not myself buy a Naim streamer to use it as a transport but I think that

3) Ethernet > NDX2 > DC1 > nDAC

4) Ethernet > NDX2 > DC1 > NDX2

would also be interesting comparisons and, of course, one could replace NDX2 with ND555 in 1), 3) and 4). The latter would require two NDX2 but the other comparisons could be done very easily.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Mike Sullivan posted

This is one of the advantages of the Core though. You don't need to know any of this. Have the dealer set it up, put CDs in. They rip and store, you play them. Simple. No computers to complicate things ...

But the Core is a computer ...........  

I think you mean it’s not a general use programmable computer... and yes most would agree... I suggest you would be better of with a laptop running Windows or OSX if you wanted that. 

Yes, I mean computers as a generic reference to a windows or Mac system, with their attendant idiosyncratic behavoiurs, lower grade power supplies and general potential for noise, interference and other naught things that computer do. I’d see the Core as a dedicated audio system within the Naim ecosystem as an advantage over being part of a mixed/blended audio/Windows/Mac computer set up in terms of reliability and simplicity and performance.

feeling_zen posted:

Whether that is a better approach with less compromises than Naim's external PSU philosophy remains to be heard. But it is certainly in interesting approach.

I think you are getting possibly confused. It’s not a case of one or the other.. they address different requirements and both are valid.. The Naim approach for decoupled powersupplies is primarily for two key reasons that improve SQ.

• By removing the relatively large internal powersupplies, more space is created for the sensitive audio circuitry. This allows for better decoupling between competing functions relatively easily whilst still fitting within the standard case dimensions.
• Using an off board powersupply removes the effects of the electromagnetic fields from the transformer with coupling with the sensitive audio circuitry. Although this is mitigated as fast as possible with clever design when internal PSUs are used with the latest non ND500 streamers.

The DAC and streaming decoupling is at the other end of the scale .. Here the benefit is separating electronic state machines providing separate functions from each other and their resultant cross talk (good old systems theory). Benefits here include

• Decoupled ground plane and powerline modulation between different functional units
• Decoupled RF and EM intermodulation between different functional units.

Mike Sullivan posted:

..... windows or Mac system, with their attendant idiosyncratic behavoiurs, lower grade power supplies and general potential for noise, interference and other naught things that computer do. I’d see the Core as a dedicated audio system within the N

Absolutely, but let’s not forget well designed computers are key to the performance of much of the current Naim portfolio... but that is a world away, as you say, from general purpose  Mac or Windows laptops....

I bought my streamer (NDX) to do exactly that, first of all with NDAC/555PS, then later the Hugo. I tried the NDS for a while, but I think once you go for decoupled streaming and then for me evolving away from the PCM1704K, I found going back was not an option.

i run Ethernet (using UPnP proxy for internet streaming) into NDX into Gotham 75 ohm BNC to phono terminated coax into Hugo into Hiline into 552.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

feeling_zen posted:

Whether that is a better approach with less compromises than Naim's external PSU philosophy remains to be heard. But it is certainly in interesting approach.

I think you are getting possibly confused. It’s not a case of one or the other.. they address different requirements and both are valid.

I do fully understand that and that was my point. Naim have looked at all the problems to solve and come to the conclusion that given a multi box solutions, power supply related issues give the most benefit to be addressed their way. The other issues, they clearly feel are either lesser in terms of audible impact OR can be effectively manged without additional boxes.

Esoteric, presented with the same problems have clearly felt that those that can benefit most by multi box isolation are different. 

They, and any manufacturer worth their salt knows the problems to be solved. But the very fact of using a multi box solution to more thoroughly address a different subset of issues (while not ignoring the others at all)  kind of does make it a one or the other question in terms of approach. 

I find their firm belief in external master clock generators fascinating too. But never heard any of their gear and anecdotally been told it's pretty boring. Though on another forum, someone swears by the synergy of Esoteric sources with the NAC 552.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

I bought my streamer (NDX) to do exactly that, first of all with NDAC/555PS, then later the Hugo. I tried the NDS for a while, but I think once you go for decoupled streaming and then for me evolving away from the PCM1704K, I found going back was not an option.

i run Ethernet (using UPnP proxy for internet streaming) into NDX into Gotham 75 ohm BNC to phono terminated coax into Hugo into Hiline into 552.

Thanks for the clarifications! I have a more modest system but I am following a similar approach: my current transport is a DigiOne, connected to an NDAC via a BC1. I do not know how the DigiOne (and the new DigiOne Signature) compare to the NDX as a transport. I expect the NDX to provide better isolation of internal subcomponents and then, of course, of the whole box. On the other hand, the DigiOne host needs very little power. I am looking forward to read what MICHAEL1702 will find out in his comparisons. He has been powering his DigiOne from the NDAC's USB port. I do not know whether is a good idea, I'll have to try it.  

Fascinating discussion. The notion of taking SPDIF out of an ND555 to another DAC at first seemed shocking  to me given the cost of  ND555 investment but I'm warming to the idea and no doubt I'd be tempted to give it a go. What level of DACs would be deemed necessary? Obviously Hugo, Hugo2, a future Naim DAC? Surely there would be no advantage attaching the current Naim DAC?

I recently borrowed a friend’s Hugo 2 to connect to my NDS, prior to ordering a ND555, thinking that it might save me some money as an upgrade. In short, it was distinctly inferior to the NDS alone. ND55 is on its way hoping in will narrow the gap between streaming and my vinyl system.

cycling66 posted:

Fascinating discussion. The notion of taking SPDIF out of an ND555 to another DAC at first seemed shocking  to me given the cost of  ND555 investment but I'm warming to the idea and no doubt I'd be tempted to give it a go. What level of DACs would be deemed necessary? Obviously Hugo, Hugo2, a future Naim DAC? Surely there would be no advantage attaching the current Naim DAC?

I doubt that it would make sense using an ND555 as a transport for a nDAC but perhaps an ND5 XS 2 or an NDX 2? No matter: tests can be done very easily and soon we will know more, I hope.

The fact that Naim have equipped their new devices with S/PDIF outputs is interesting per se. The ND555 white paper suggests that the ND555 is "perhaps the last commercial product to use" the PCM1704 chip. Thus, future Naim DAC will most likely rely on different chips and perhaps designs. From this angle, an S/PDIF output further improves the flexibility (and finally the value) of the new devices at a relatively low cost. It makes a lot of sense, I believe.

cycling66 posted:

Fascinating discussion. The notion of taking SPDIF out of an ND555 to another DAC at first seemed shocking  to me given the cost of  ND555 investment but I'm warming to the idea and no doubt I'd be tempted to give it a go. What level of DACs would be deemed necessary? Obviously Hugo, Hugo2, a future Naim DAC? Surely there would be no advantage attaching the current Naim DAC?

Hi, if you want Chord Electronics, then the original Hugo, Hugo TT or DAVE... the Hugo 2 and the other variants seem to have lost the magic in my humble opinion.... I was  very disappointed with the Hugo 2....so much so I thought it faulty and tried another... it was the same..recommend you give it a wide berth.

In my humble opinion the [original]  Hugo runs rings around the NDS and the NDAC/555PS... go back a few years on the forum and you can see my reviews... I remember at the time I was not alone and it upset the natural order of things... emotions got raised and the thread got pulled... luckily the offensive posts were removed, thanks Richard, and  the thread  got reinstated.. and makes possibly interesting reading now..

Also I have the Hugo to blame for me getting my 552.. I remember hearing a fellow forumites 552 system playing a Hugo a few years ago and it was mesmerising...

cycling66 posted:

Fascinating discussion. The notion of taking SPDIF out of an ND555 to another DAC at first seemed shocking  to me given the cost of  ND555 investment but I'm warming to the idea and no doubt I'd be tempted to give it a go. What level of DACs would be deemed necessary? Obviously Hugo, Hugo2, a future Naim DAC? Surely there would be no advantage attaching the current Naim DAC?

The older Naim streamers have digital out too. This is more to facilitate longevity as the devices age. An external DAC can be added way down the line provided the functionality is still satisfactory. It doesn't make sense to add a DAC from the start as this is effectively wasting money on a streamer that is half unused (the internal DAC part).

If you really wat a dedicated streaming transport, a second hand NDX or a non Naim high end DACless streamer can be found. I mentioned one such device earlier in this thread but it isn't cheap. About the same cost as a ND555 plus 555PS... and you need a DAC on top of that.

cycling66 posted:

Fascinating discussion. The notion of taking SPDIF out of an ND555 to another DAC at first seemed shocking  to me given the cost of  ND555 investment but I'm warming to the idea and no doubt I'd be tempted to give it a go. What level of DACs would be deemed necessary? Obviously Hugo, Hugo2, a future Naim DAC? Surely there would be no advantage attaching the current Naim DAC?

Just wondering aloud... in the Naim world, the ND555 is top of the tree. You could (money being no object...) run a pair of ND555 players. One as the Network player, S/PDIF into the second ND555 acting as the DAC. Rather wasteful i know but it could be the ultimate Naim four boxer until the Statement level streamer arrives ?