Have I got a hearing issue?

You know what that means, you need a ND555 ????

But seriously my dealer pushes the Bluesound I'd never heard of it, so turned my nose up, did hear it in the main showroom so not the best acoustics, but wasn't bad.

I think it is good to question the upgrade converter belt syndrome, if it doesn't float your boat, then so be it.

Too often people and me in the past, would listen to say an 52, whilst owning an 82 and same 140s for 250s, thinking back for me it was all small to moderate steps, yes the end result was wow, but most times, even going active, I was like ????.

Now maybe the ND555 is different or maybe all them peeps need their hearing ???? or is it ego ???? checking.

Obsydian posted:

Now maybe the ND555 is different or maybe all them peeps need their hearing ???? or is it ego ???? checking.

Sorry, could you repeat that!

I can afford the ND555, but not the boxes you need to go with it. 

Try again with a home dem.

No, no and no again. I have for 30 years followed the Naim upgrade route and have never felt the need to question it (much). Just added a ND555 to my system and it sounds absolutely superb to me but it would, I’m a long standing Naim aficionado but that doesn’t mean I’m right or at least it doesn’t for anybody else’s ears but mine.

Indeed the best sounding system I have ever heard was analogue into valve but I was too far down the line to change path or so I thought at the time.

if it doesn’t sound right for you then it isn’t and there’s an end to it. You are not deaf!

Meerkat posted:

Just back from a demo of the NDX 2, and Linn Akurate DS. The amplification for both units was a 282, HiCap DR, 250 DR. I took my own speakers, Spendor A5s, which will be upgraded in due course.

Considering the NDX 2 is ten times the price of my current streamer, a Bluesound Node 2, (the Linn even more) I really did expect 'night and day', sadly it was nowhere near it.

Was it the speakers holding back the 'night and day'? My dealer said, absolutely not.

Looks like it's back to the drawing board, or even Specsavers for a hearing test!

What does "day and night" mean to you? Have you listened to music that you know very well? Perhaps your expectations were unrealistic? Perhaps you were tired or distracted? A demo can be compromised by many factors and the fact that the outcome did not meet your expectations does not necessarily imply that your hearing is compromised. Also, keep in mind that we are all different: some of us seem to be able to discern differences between, say, system A and system B immediately. Others need longer listening times and going back to system A after a relatively long period of listening on system B. When I demo a system that is allegedly much better than mine, I generally bring some tracks that I feel to be problematic and others that I feel sound great in my system. I try to understand whether the problematic tracks sound better on the "better" system and whether the tracks that sound great in my system also sound very well in the "better" system. Generally speaking, I find comparing systems quite difficult and, in most cases, tiring. There are exceptions, of course: sometimes a system sounds just "right" and then you typically do not need to look further.      

Perhaps there is a lot of hyperbole on here? This night and day lark really does not reffect  the law of diminishing returns. Alas 10x price is NOT equal to 10x SQ.

Having said that we do all hear differently and listen for different things. You would however get a much better idea if you brought the NDX2 and Linn home, I’d be surprised if you couldn’t hear more difference with a head to head. (But then that’s also what I want to believe, if you don’t hear a huge difference you’ve just saved a lot of money).

.sjb

This is an interesting issue. Some people seem to think that any improvement is worth having whatever the cost. There is also the tweak tendency with concern about cables and dressing, FLAC vs WAV, UPNP vs USB etc.  I used to fall into the former camp and ended up with 8 Naim olive boxes. What cured me of that was partly how much I enjoyed hearing music at friends' houses who had much less expensive, say Rega level, systems but the clincher was being at the Bristol Show and enjoying the Uniti room more than the 500 series room. I'm not saying the Unitis sounded better and it was probably a lot to do with the choice of dem music but I know which room I spent more time in. I'm now very happy with my Nova. In my experience, when you first get a new box you listen carefully and discover all sorts of nice improvements but you very quickly take them for granted and start looking for the next fix. I think (hope?) I have learnt my way past this as in the Naim factory dem room, a Nova was then followed by a 272/250. I could hear the difference but but to me it was not night and day enough to be worth the extra money - YMMV.

I haven't quite cured myself of the tweak tendency as I do have a Powerline and a Chord C-stream streaming cable but I'm getting there. 

Camlan posted:

if it doesn’t sound right for you then it isn’t and there’s an end to it. You are not deaf!

Very good advice... a system, especially high end, needs to match how you hear things, have a system synergy, and indeed have effective speaker/room coupling.

All this means there is no absolute certainty of increased SQ enjoyment with more expensive devices, just an increased chance of it.

In the area of DAC technology (and speaker/room coupling)  this becomes more pronounced... as digital to analogue conversion is an inexact process, it’s a case of choosing the compromises that are you are least likely going to notice . For me personally the PCM1704K just doesn’t do it any more for me compared to certain other devices for neutral accurate/ realistic  enjoyable playback ... and it feels ia step backwards, no matter how well implemented (but I do enjoy the the slightly coloured CDX2 performance for certain discs)...

Therefore you have to listen and carefully demo over an extended period of time to hear if it’s right for you and your system/speakers/room.

 Interestingly the higher the quality of the NAC the more this DAC approach dependency becomes pronounced. So you might even find the ND555 is not for you.... it’s not for me... but I suspect it’s more about its use of the 1704Krather than anything else. However if that device has the right compromise balance for you it is probably going to sound first class... so careful audition required, especially with speakers and DAC technology... and especially if you spend a lot of time with immersive listening, and an understanding family, like I do.

Probably a duff demo using items just fresh out of their boxes.

Pev posted:

I haven't quite cured myself of the tweak tendency as I do have a Powerline and a Chord C-stream streaming cable but I'm getting there. 

???? PEV,....This above is not Tweak's,..It is optimizing the/your system after a very thorough installation????????????.

/Peder ????

Pev posted:

This is an interesting issue. Some people seem to think that any improvement is worth having whatever the cost. There is also the tweak tendency with concern about cables and dressing, FLAC vs WAV, UPNP vs USB etc.  I used to fall into the former camp and ended up with 8 Naim olive boxes. What cured me of that was partly how much I enjoyed hearing music at friends' houses who had much less expensive, say Rega level, systems but the clincher was being at the Bristol Show and enjoying the Uniti room more than the 500 series room. I'm not saying the Unitis sounded better and it was probably a lot to do with the choice of dem music but I know which room I spent more time in. I'm now very happy with my Nova. In my experience, when you first get a new box you listen carefully and discover all sorts of nice improvements but you very quickly take them for granted and start looking for the next fix. I think (hope?) I have learnt my way past this as in the Naim factory dem room, a Nova was then followed by a 272/250. I could hear the difference but but to me it was not night and day enough to be worth the extra money - YMMV.

I haven't quite cured myself of the tweak tendency as I do have a Powerline and a Chord C-stream streaming cable but I'm getting there. 

I’ve fallen into the Nova solution too, as an upgrade to a UC2/NAP100. A few factors for my circumstances, preference for a one or two box solution and I like the match with Totem speakers, Hawks were my match with the UC2. I actually didn’t demo the Nova, as I knew it would be a big lift on the UC2, and it was at the limit of what I wanted to pay. But I did demo Totem Forest Signatures with the Nova and rolled the boat out for those. So now, I have great systems  in the lounge and a mini media room.

upgradeitis is scary, the next step up would be double the price, and as much as I love my music other priorities come into play. And then there is the marriage to keep in tact and a daughter who will need help going into adulthood.

Camlan posted:

Indeed the best sounding system I have ever heard was analogue into valve but I was too far down the line to change path or so I thought at the time.

???? CAMLAN,....Here I can really agree with you, I have both a Solid State and a Valve system.

By analogy through a Valve system is exceptionally good,..it is not possible to compare with anything else.

But really heavy Rock'n'Roll,..at really high volume,with really large speakers..usually requires a Solid State system.

But there is probably a reason for,..that the best guitar-amplifiers are valve's fitted.

By the way..You have a great system????.

/Peder ????

If a more a more expensive piece of kit doesn’t sound better, then clearly no point in buying, whatever the reason. Or if the difference is so small that you have to listen for ages to discern it, then to me its value is questionable. However one other thing to do rather than listening for a discernible difference, is just listen to music for a while - I mean a whole listening session at least (so needs to be a home demo), then swap and listen to that one (another whole session or more) then repeat a couple more times - looking back, was one more enjoyable/engrossing/stimulating than the other? If so, the choice lies there. If not, cheapest wins. This is a bit like the ‘tune’ method some people advocate, though for me that method misses something because it focusses only on which ‘holds the tune’ better, which to me is not necessarily the same as which is more satisfying that I would want to live with.

Regarding speakers, whilst they can limit how good the music can sound, I think you should still clearly hear if sources are significantly different, and most important is that you like the sound of music through your speakers. As you are in any case planning on changing the speakers, why not wait toll you’ve done that and then have another audition of the source - or even do the auditioning of both at the same time, even if you delay the actual purchase of one?

As for ears, unless affecting your enjoyment, or your ability to function, then I would say dob’t worry about them at all (not that you give the impression you are serious about that) - indeed, if your ears are less sensitive to sound differences than other people, or if the way you listen to music* is such that you are less able to spot differences, I would contend that unless your job entails critical comparison of sound that is actually a good thing, and can save you a fortune!

* I started a thread on this subject a couply of months ago (How do you listen to music - and is that the ‘right’ way?), and though it didn’t run for long there were some interesting responses.

It has already been said. The new sound needs to fit to your preference. That’s better on paper, doesn’t mean it’s per definition better for you. Secondly the demos are not always the best way to get access to something new. Sometimes it’s better to wait until it had been played often, or in your on home.

I guess while we have all declining hearing qualities, it’s not your ears...

Meerkat posted:

Just back from a demo of the NDX 2, and Linn Akurate DS. The amplification for both units was a 282, HiCap DR, 250 DR. I took my own speakers, Spendor A5s, which will be upgraded in due course.

Considering the NDX 2 is ten times the price of my current streamer, a Bluesound Node 2, (the Linn even more) I really did expect 'night and day', sadly it was nowhere near it.

Was it the speakers holding back the 'night and day'? My dealer said, absolutely not.

Looks like it's back to the drawing board, or even Specsavers for a hearing test!

Thanks to you all for taking the time to reply to my post. They have been really helpful.

I appreciate fully, that adding/upgrading a black box, or upgrading cables, the difference is often subtle. But, even if the NDX 2 or the Linn Akurate DS didn't give me that 'wow factor', surely the 282 and 250 should have, shouldn't it? My present system is an Arcam A39 Integrated amp, Bluesound Node 2, and Spendor A5s. I'd have thought, that the 282/250 would have blown the Arcam out of the water!

Agreed, the A5s would have been holding back the performance of the NDX 2/282/250.

Meerkat posted:

 

Was it the speakers holding back the 'night and day'? My dealer said, absolutely not.

As that was in your dealer’s room, did s/he also not hear a difference with equal puzzlement, or was he/she full of how different they sounded but inaudible to you - and if the latter did you feel it was genuine or simple sales patter?

If you cannot really tell the difference maybe you should count yourself lucky. The current system is perhaps all you need for musical enjoyment. There is no need to feel you have to have some sort of wow moment. 

The orthodox accepted wisdom on this forum is “source first”. I have nevertheless failed to discern significant differences with digital sources. Very much have though with (in descending order) speakers, power cords, amp, speaker cables. Don’t cast me to the abyss...

Innocent Bystander posted:

Meerkat posted:

 

Was it the speakers holding back the 'night and day'? My dealer said, absolutely not.

As that was in your dealer’s room, did s/he also not hear a difference with equal puzzlement, or was he/she full of how different they sounded but inaudible to you - and if the latter did you feel it was genuine or simple sales patter?

Additional stupid question, though that doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be asked: were the source files at least standard CD quality? (I.e. not mp3 files, online streaming from Spotify, etc)

???? MEERKAT,....That you do not hear the difference,can also be due to psychological effects that you do not think of...

◾ That you slept badly.
◾ That you are unwittingly stressed.
◾ That you without thinking about,it feels a requirement from your traders to hear the difference.
◾ That you unwittingly think,..that it costs too much money and is affected by it.

◾ You maybe listening for audio differences, instead of musical differences.

These are some examples of factors that can affect one when listening,..Especially if you listen in your traders shop,and may not be so used to evaluating differences.

????Example: I myself have suffered this,..1988 I would listen to an external power supply to my then Linn-amplifier.
◾ Linn LK280, amplifier.
◾ Linn Spark, external power-supply.

This was in my dealer's Shop.

I heard absolutely no difference,..the trader almost thought I was weird....they were two, and both said....
"You mean you don't hear it,.it's a big difference."

I didn't hear the difference,..But a few months later I had to borrow home the Linn Spark external power-supply.
Then I heard the difference direct,..AND,it was great,..dramatically great.

I can't explain why I didn't hear the difference in my trader's Shop,..but probably played the above-reported reasons into this.

So..Borrow home and listen in peace and quiet in your home environment,..it's the best advice I can give you.

/Peder ????

Innocent Bystander posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

As that was in your dealer’s room, did s/he also not hear a difference with equal puzzlement, or was he/she full of how different they sounded but inaudible to you - and if the latter did you feel it was genuine or simple sales patter?

Additional stupid question, though that doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be asked: were the source files at least standard CD quality? (I.e. not mp3 files, online streaming from Spotify, etc)

It is said, and I concur, "There is no such thing as a stupid question, only a stupid answer."   

Having trained many folk in the black art of computer programming in a previous life, this was always my opening stance.   And nowadays it still serves as a response when young people* look at me with that certain look  and tut disapprovingly.

*Thing is, 'young people' nowadays are my grandchildren... even the 3 year old has mastered a look of distain.   Must be time for my cocoa.

Bluesound Node even v 1 is very good. Comparing it either through ndac or without to my ns01 I would say the same the  difference is not night and day. Since I own both I am not using more time comparing sq on the 2. The node is used for tidal and the ns01 for everything else.

Claus

Innocent Bystander posted:

Meerkat posted:

 

Was it the speakers holding back the 'night and day'? My dealer said, absolutely not.

As that was in your dealer’s room, did s/he also not hear a difference with equal puzzlement, or was he/she full of how different they sounded but inaudible to you - and if the latter did you feel it was genuine or simple sales patter?

To be fair, my dealer has never heard my system, so I guess he wasn't able to compare both systems side by side. Definitely not a sales patter, he just isn't like that. 
He takes the view of what many have commented on...It's not what he can hear that's important, it's what I can hear. 

Meerkat posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

Meerkat posted:

 

Was it the speakers holding back the 'night and day'? My dealer said, absolutely not.

As that was in your dealer’s room, did s/he also not hear a difference with equal puzzlement, or was he/she full of how different they sounded but inaudible to you - and if the latter did you feel it was genuine or simple sales patter?

To be fair, my dealer has never heard my system, so I guess he wasn't able to compare both systems side by side. Definitely not a sales patter, he just isn't like that. 
He takes the view of what many have commented on...It's not what he can hear that's important, it's what I can hear. 

I wasn’t meaning your system, I meant at te dealer’s where you auditioned the NDX2 and decided it was no better than your Bluesound.

(Or did I misunderstand, and the NDX2 in the dealer’s system and room  didn’t  sound better than the Bluesound in yours sustem asnd room? If this is the case then it wasn’t a direct comparison, and there could be any number of reasons for it.)

Two somewhat diverging comments Meerkat:

1. I've pretty much always heard source improvements, even with the "modest" SN2/HiCap.

2. About a year into my SN2 ownership and enjoyment, I brought home a 282 and 250.2 just to hear them.  Hooked the 282 up to my HiCap.  After about 10 minutes, my reaction was, "I don't really hear much of anything different" and was able to return them a day later. For whatever reason, that wasn't IT for me that day.  By all rights it SHOULD have sounded better.  You may well just have had a similar experience.  I would not be surprised that if you like what you own now, a 10x more costly streamer didn't HIT you.  It could have...probably should have sounded "better"...but things are more complicated.

Bonus comment:  In a few weeks, bring home the NDX2 for a few hours and try it, at home, in your system.  You may or may not want to keep it.