Have I got a hearing issue?

If you didn’t before (it was unclear in your postings and you didn’t clarify when I asked), then do take your Bluesound for a direct comparison if the dealer dosen’t ha e it available.

Mike Sullivan posted:

Pev posted:

This is an interesting issue. Some people seem to think that any improvement is worth having whatever the cost. There is also the tweak tendency with concern about cables and dressing, FLAC vs WAV, UPNP vs USB etc.  I used to fall into the former camp and ended up with 8 Naim olive boxes. What cured me of that was partly how much I enjoyed hearing music at friends' houses who had much less expensive, say Rega level, systems but the clincher was being at the Bristol Show and enjoying the Uniti room more than the 500 series room. I'm not saying the Unitis sounded better and it was probably a lot to do with the choice of dem music but I know which room I spent more time in. I'm now very happy with my Nova. In my experience, when you first get a new box you listen carefully and discover all sorts of nice improvements but you very quickly take them for granted and start looking for the next fix. I think (hope?) I have learnt my way past this as in the Naim factory dem room, a Nova was then followed by a 272/250. I could hear the difference but but to me it was not night and day enough to be worth the extra money - YMMV.

I haven't quite cured myself of the tweak tendency as I do have a Powerline and a Chord C-stream streaming cable but I'm getting there. 

I’ve fallen into the Nova solution too, as an upgrade to a UC2/NAP100. A few factors for my circumstances, preference for a one or two box solution and I like the match with Totem speakers, Hawks were my match with the UC2. I actually didn’t demo the Nova, as I knew it would be a big lift on the UC2, and it was at the limit of what I wanted to pay. But I did demo Totem Forest Signatures with the Nova and rolled the boat out for those. So now, I have great systems  in the lounge and a mini media room.

upgradeitis is scary, the next step up would be double the price,and as much as I love my music other priorities come into play. And then there is the marriage to keep in tact and a daughter who will need help going into adulthood.

wise man. ???? ????

Innocent Bystander posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

Meerkat posted:

 

Was it the speakers holding back the 'night and day'? My dealer said, absolutely not.

As that was in your dealer’s room, did s/he also not hear a difference with equal puzzlement, or was he/she full of how different they sounded but inaudible to you - and if the latter did you feel it was genuine or simple sales patter?

Additional stupid question, though that doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be asked: were the source files at least standard CD quality? (I.e. not mp3 files, online streaming from Spotify, etc)

Really sorry I missed your questions. All the files are ripped CDs using dbpoweramp, and also Hi-Res files downloaded from HDTacks and HiResAudio.

No I didn't take my Bluesound in to the dealer and do a comparison, perhaps I should have done. Having said that, I really do know the sound of my system. Anything better or worse, I'd pick up on it.

Thanks 

What was the outcome of your repeat demo? One advantage of the NDX2 is that it can be further upgraded with the addition of an external power supply (XPS or 555PS), so hopefully you'd have listened to those options too.

An update to my original post:

Yesterday, I demoed the same system at a different dealer, but without my Spendor A5s. Instead, we used PMC Twenty5 26. Oh my goodness, absolutely wonderful, night and day compared to the previous demo.

So, was it just my A5s holding back the NDX 2, 282, HiCapDR, 250DR, or something else?

That was the good news...The bad news, those PMC Twenty5 26 are nearly 8K, way over my budget! I may try Kudos Super 20A. Can't demo the speakers side by side, as the dealers that I use, do not stock both brands. I don't have much luck with pre-loved gear, so won't go down that road.

I guess I could do an extra paper round and save up.

Clive B posted:

What was the outcome of your repeat demo? One advantage of the NDX2 is that it can be further upgraded with the addition of an external power supply (XPS or 555PS), so hopefully you'd have listened to those options too.

Cheers Clive, just posted.

I also have 25.26 and that’s what I used in my nd555/NDX2 demo. Depending on the size of your room you could consider other PMC speakers that might be better suited to your room and wallet. HH recommended a pair the other day (sorry I forgot the model number), I am sure he and others can advise based on their experience. I did try the Kudos super 20a, they just did not come alive for me, compared to PMC.

That was the good news...The bad news, those PMC Twenty5 26 are nearly 8K, way over my budget! I may try Kudos Super 20A. Can't demo the speakers side by side, as the dealers that I use, do not stock both brands. I don't have much luck with pre-loved gear, so won't go down that road.

I guess I could do an extra paper round and save up.

Bugger. I feel your pain.

Meerkat posted:

 

 

An update to my original post:

.... Oh my goodness, absolutely wonderful, night and day compared to the previous demo.

So, was it just my A5s holding back the NDX 2, 282, HiCapDR, 250DR, or something else?

 

you never know if you keep varying more than one component at the time. My gut feeling is that speakers make most of the difference ... so  .... bring your source with you to eliminate the uncertainty!

Meerkat posted:

 

 

An update to my original post:

Yesterday, I demoed the same system at a different dealer, but without my Spendor A5s. Instead, we used PMC Twenty5 26. Oh my goodness, absolutely wonderful, night and day compared to the previous demo.

So, was it just my A5s holding back the NDX 2, 282, HiCapDR, 250DR, or something else?

That was the good news...The bad news, those PMC Twenty5 26 are nearly 8K, way over my budget! I may try Kudos Super 20A. Can't demo the speakers side by side, as the dealers that I use, do not stock both brands. I don't have much luck with pre-loved gear, so won't go down that road.

I guess I could do an extra paper round and save up.

Sorry, I’m still unclear. Was that comparing the Bluesound Note and the NDX2 in the same system (at the dealer, this time with 25-26 and last time with the Spendors), or comparing NDX2 at the dealer with Bluesound at home? I have assumed the former in both your original post and this, but you still haven’t actually confirmed.

Mike Sullivan posted:

That was the good news...The bad news, those PMC Twenty5 26 are nearly 8K, way over my budget! I may try Kudos Super 20A. Can't demo the speakers side by side, as the dealers that I use, do not stock both brands. I don't have much luck with pre-loved gear, so won't go down that road.

I guess I could do an extra paper round and save up.

Bugger. I feel your pain.

Innocent Bystander posted:

Meerkat posted:

 

 

An update to my original post:

Yesterday, I demoed the same system at a different dealer, but without my Spendor A5s. Instead, we used PMC Twenty5 26. Oh my goodness, absolutely wonderful, night and day compared to the previous demo.

So, was it just my A5s holding back the NDX 2, 282, HiCapDR, 250DR, or something else?

That was the good news...The bad news, those PMC Twenty5 26 are nearly 8K, way over my budget! I may try Kudos Super 20A. Can't demo the speakers side by side, as the dealers that I use, do not stock both brands. I don't have much luck with pre-loved gear, so won't go down that road.

I guess I could do an extra paper round and save up.

Sorry, I’m still unclear. Was that comparing the Bluesound Note and the NDX2 in the same system (at the dealer, this time with 25-26 and last time with the Spendors), or comparing NDX2 at the dealer with Bluesound at home? I have assumed the former in both your original post and this, but you still haven’t actually confirmed.

Sorry for not clarifying.  I did not take the Bluesound Node 2 to the dealer.

Correct, NDX 2/282/HiCapDR/250DR at the dealer. The Bluesound at home with my Arcam A39 Integrated amp.

TOBYJUG posted:

Probably a duff demo using items just fresh out of their boxes.

The NDX 2 arrived on the same day as we had the ND555 demo, by the guys from Naim. So it had been run in for a week. The 282/HicapDR/250DR, they've been demoing for over a year.

DrPo posted:

Meerkat posted:

 

 

An update to my original post:

.... Oh my goodness, absolutely wonderful, night and day compared to the previous demo.

So, was it just my A5s holding back the NDX 2, 282, HiCapDR, 250DR, or something else?

 

you never know if you keep varying more than one component at the time. My gut feeling is that speakers make most of the difference ... so  .... bring your source with you to eliminate the uncertainty!

Good call, I will. Just to rule that out.

Gazza posted:

I also have 25.26 and that’s what I used in my nd555/NDX2 demo. Depending on the size of your room you could consider other PMC speakers that might be better suited to your room and wallet. HH recommended a pair the other day (sorry I forgot the model number), I am sure he and others can advise based on their experience. I did try the Kudos super 20a, they just did not come alive for me, compared to PMC.

You lucky bloke! 

PMC also do a twenty.26, which is cheaper. It appears to be a different range from the twenty5 26. How confusing!

But if you like their sound signature... (PMC) explore some more. It’s very important to get the speakers right for your ears. Talk to your dealer about him selling his demo speakers.....ex demo for a discount. Best of luck, but do enjoy the journey.

So, when you say there was no difference between the NDX2 and the Bluesound through the Dpendors, you whpere also comparing different rooms (and amps?). Had you yeard the two sources through the same system/room you may very well have noticed a difference, maybe small, maybe big. 

The additional comparison yesterday, appears to suggest thatbthe PMCs are bettwrvthan the Spendors (at least in the dealer’s room).

So now you need to compare the twomsources in the one system and room, preferably at home, and likewise compare the two speakers on each of the sources. Then if you can only afford  to buy one now you”ll know which makes the bigger difference sombestbto get first.

Seperately there is a possible question as to amp, if the dealer’s is different from yours, and even the room, speaker and listening position and acoustic effects.

However, those are not negatives - it seems you’re on your way to something better!

Bart posted:

Two somewhat diverging comments Meerkat:

1. I've pretty much always heard source improvements, even with the "modest" SN2/HiCap.

2. About a year into my SN2 ownership and enjoyment, I brought home a 282 and 250.2 just to hear them.  Hooked the 282 up to my HiCap.  After about 10 minutes, my reaction was, "I don't really hear much of anything different" and was able to return them a day later. For whatever reason, that wasn't IT for me that day.  By all rights it SHOULD have sounded better.  You may well just have had a similar experience.  I would not be surprised that if you like what you own now, a 10x more costly streamer didn't HIT you.  It could have...probably should have sounded "better"...but things are more complicated.

Bonus comment:  In a few weeks, bring home the NDX2 for a few hours and try it, at home, in your system.  You may or may not want to keep it. 

Thanks Bart, I will.

Meerkat posted:

PMC also do a twenty.26, which is cheaper. It appears to be a different range from the twenty5 26. How confusing!

That’s the older model. You can find it new but now heavily discounted from some dealers, or ex dem. 

You mentioned not bad experiences with ‘preloved’ - maybe I’ve been lucky, but despite a good proportion of my gear over the years having been secondhand I’ve never any issues at all. Should be no problem at all if you buy from a dealer - and even though the guarantee is not transferrable, the fact that PMC speakers are guaranteed for 20 years should give confidence - and if you hear them and they sound OK younknow the drivers haven't been damaged,.

Innocent Bystander posted:

So, when you say there was no difference between the NDX2 and the Bluesound through the Dpendors, you whpere also comparing different rooms (and amps?). Had you yeard the two sources through the same system/room you may very well have noticed a difference, maybe small, maybe big. 

The additional comparison yesterday, appears to suggest thatbthe PMCs are bettwrvthan the Spendors (at least in the dealer’s room).

So now you need to compare the twomsources in the one system and room, preferably at home, and likewise compare the two speakers on each of the sources. Then if you can only afford  to buy one now you”ll know which makes the bigger difference sombestbto get first.

 

Seperately there is a possible question as to amp, if the dealer’s is different from yours, and even the room, speaker and listening position and acoustic effects.

However, those are not negatives - it seems you’re on your way to something better!

I agree, and thanks for your suggestions.

Innocent Bystander posted:

Meerkat posted:

PMC also do a twenty.26, which is cheaper. It appears to be a different range from the twenty5 26. How confusing!

That’s the older model. You can find it new but now heavily discounted from some dealers, or ex dem. 

You mentioned not bad experiences with ‘preloved’ - maybe I’ve been lucky, but despite a good proportion of my gear over the years having been secondhand I’ve never any issues at all. Should be no problem at all if you buy from a dealer - and even though the guarantee is not transferrable, the fact that PMC speakers are guaranteed for 20 years should give confidence - and if you hear them and they sound OK younknow the drivers haven't been damaged,.

Can you please confirm which one is the old model. Just been on the PMC website, the twenty5 and the twenty are both advertised. Either that, or I really do need to go to Specsavers!

I think HH had twenty 24s??

Meerkat posted:

Gazza posted:

 HH recommended a pair the other day (sorry I forgot the model number), I am sure he and others can advise based on their experience. 

You lucky bloke! 

PMC also do a twenty.26, which is cheaper. It appears to be a different range from the twenty5 26. How confusing!

I think HH used to own the twenty 24s, before his SBLs ??

Meerkat posted:

I think HH used to own the twenty 24s, before his SBLs ??

I thought Kans but I could be wrong.

Twenty is the older series, twentfive newer. Ther do dpseem to have been carrying the ranges alongside for a while, i don’t know why unless there is enough of a differencecforvthere to be demand. iIRC without checking, i think they  some of the Twenty models are no longer available.

eBay reveals the Twenty26 sometimes as low as £3k, described as new.

if you have the budget, the PMC Fact 12 is a significant step up from the 26, and not infrequently ex-dem for £8k, and occasionally secondhand down to maybe £6k, occasionally even lower. It is slim (but deep), but the sound belies the skinniness - and it can be tailored slightly to help balance in different rooms or to taste.

Christopher_M posted:

Meerkat posted:

I think HH used to own the twenty 24s, before his SBLs ??

I thought Kans but I could be wrong.

No idea if Kans, but I do remember he had Twenty somethings, possibly 24.