Salisbury

MDS posted:

Suggesting further incompetence on the part of the Russian secret service.  

The whole operation seems to be so amateurish it beggars belief,  supposedly top Russian GRU snoops leaving a CCTV & other evidence trail that it makes me wonder if it is deliberately made to be so amateurish.   But whatever the operation to kill Skripal failed,  the collateral damage of his daughter & DS Bailey was probably to be expected,  but the disposal of the applicator (perfume bottle) was reckless as it probably carries a lot more incriminating evidence than has been released.   Its bizarre.   

The Russian TV 'interviews' just underscore the farce of it all,  if it was intended for Russian consumption I don't believe it,  I know Russia & its peoples ways & attitudes quite well & believe me they are not that gullible;  they are more likely to raise eyebrows & shrug shoulders in resignation of  its the way it works with the state, police, security & Putin.      

So what it all about,  is this another bungled assassination attempt,  or is it that Russian just don't care what they do & carry on with total impunity & disregard of consequences on other nations, or is it part of a propaganda 'game' that is so twisted that us mere mortals can never understand.

Meanwhile I suggest freezing all Russian assets as another public show of retaliation, & the closer to Putin they are the deeper the freeze,   & lets hope the folks at GCHQ, MI6 & all the other spook orgs have a joined up plan that we will never hear of.  

Once more, Suffolk is ahead of the rest of the UK in grasping a golden opportunity, as reported in that bastion of serious journalism, The Suffolk Gazette -  Read the big story here!

Very good, I used to have several Russian colleagues visit me in Suffolk... can’t say they were particularly interested in going to Bury St Edmonds, but they did rather enjoy the bars down by Ipswich dock water front.... and yes Russia is the one country I can think of where they seem to drink even more than us brits.

I like the comment from the editor below...

tonym posted:

Once more, Suffolk is ahead of the rest of the UK in grasping a golden opportunity, as reported in that bastion of serious journalism, The Suffolk Gazette -  Read the big story here!

‘Lots of Shifty Russian men who care about their appearance because they have a bottle of perfume with them’...

That is just Brilliant.....

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

.... and yes Russia is the one country I can think of where they seem to drink even more than us brits. 

Last time I was in Russia in 2013  (I was a tourist looking at cathedrals - amongst other things - but it took all of 10 days)   The price of a pint (0.5litre) of beer was about the same price as 0.5litre of vodka.  & yes they do know what to do with it.

When I went on business the 'hospitality' drink to food cost ratio usually meant I needed to explain things to the chief bean counter.    

Just been reading a Sky news bulletin, saying Salisbury Restaurant has been cordoned off as 2 diners become ill....police at the scene ..... the saga continues???

According to one of the Sunday papers the two suspects had quite a party in their hotel. They seemed to make the most of their short visit to the UK. 

I find it very difficult to see the disinformation and smear tactics of the UK Govt and press when discussing these 2 chaps who visited the UK.Being one who has visited the UK with the view to see certain historic places I can concur as to the fickleness of the weather ,Howling gales ,snow ,sleet. These guys went down to Stonehenge and it was snowed out FACT 2nd attempt they encountered driving rain and sleet and were soaked CCTV confirms that FACT ,I would be a little discouraged of a third attempt to visit at that time as these guys did not have full on wet weather clothing. So they went to see the Cathedral etc fact.

So they had a party in the hotel and a little  company from a local lass and some  weed thrown in ......sounds like these guys know how to have a good time they just needed some good tunes to finish the scene.

To say the Police found Novichok in the room after they left but it was too small a sample to confirm it was Novichok......well my understanding is this Novichok is a concoction of various organophosphates ,as such where did the Police find this sample ? on the door handle ,or table maybe the floor on the carpet? who knows as the whole UK Govt and Police investigation has bolted out the door with accusations of who done it right from the get go first with the buffoon Boris then May without any substance as above we see the UK  Govt story is full of holes .Anyhow if that sample was found on the floor (carpet ) it may be a residue from anyones shoes people do use organophosphates to poison weeds etc this could easily be transferred that way and explain why it was such a small trace...yes.

I don't see the UK Govt presenting anything that has contradicted the above just releasing half truths and half the story to fit the agenda ,those double agents are a worry they could turn either way and it takes two to party, and that other party may feel they need to lose this small asset to push the big plan ?

This is my observation as one who is viewing from afar and is less emotionally involved ....patriotism and all.

My personal view is that the Russian “tourist” story stinks... but it doesn’t stink enough to cover the smell and holes in the U.K. narrative of what happened.

RussR posted:

I find it very difficult to see the disinformation and smear tactics of the UK Govt and press when discussing these 2 chaps who visited the UK.Being one who has visited the UK with the view to see certain historic places I can concur as to the fickleness of the weather ,Howling gales ,snow ,sleet. These guys went down to Stonehenge and it was snowed out FACT 2nd attempt they encountered driving rain and sleet and were soaked CCTV confirms that FACT ,I would be a little discouraged of a third attempt to visit at that time as these guys did not have full on wet weather clothing. So they went to see the Cathedral etc fact.

 

So they had a party in the hotel and a little  company from a local lass and some  weed thrown in ......sounds like these guys know how to have a good time they just needed some good tunes to finish the scene.

To say the Police found Novichok in the room after they left but it was too small a sample to confirm it was Novichok......well my understanding is this Novichok is a concoction of various organophosphates ,as such where did the Police find this sample ? on the door handle ,or table maybe the floor on the carpet? who knows as the whole UK Govt and Police investigation has bolted out the door with accusations of who done it right from the get go first with the buffoon Boris then May without any substance as above we see the UK  Govt story is full of holes .Anyhow if that sample was found on the floor (carpet ) it may be a residue from anyones shoes people do use organophosphates to poison weeds etc this could easily be transferred that way and explain why it was such a small trace...yes.

I don't see the UK Govt presenting anything that has contradicted the above just releasing half truths and half the story to fit the agenda ,those double agents are a worry they could turn either way and it takes two to party, and that other party may feel they need to lose this small asset to push the big plan ?

This is my observation as one who is viewing from afar and is less emotionally involved ....patriotism and all.

You post is virtually the same as Craig Murray’s account of possible scenarios. People in the UK are fully capable of interpreting events differently to the press releases of politicians or the investigating officials. Fortunately, these reporters don’t get poisoned by the state for expressing their views.

Your last paragraph is disingenuous. Viewing from afar doesn’t guarantee automatic clarity of insight nor does it eliminate emotionality nor patriotism.

Two Russian assassins, carrying out an asignment would need a reasonable cover story. Not so good as to be totally convincing, just reasonable.

These two have a reasonable cover story. It’s almost a classic. Good enough for the Russian Gov to be able to sit back and deny, but clearly thin enough to be assured it is virtually transparent. The Russian Gov can now be sure we know they did it and they know we know they did it but, as Jamie said above, they really don’t care one jot about anything.

Hi Don ,

There is nothing disingenuous in my last paragraph except your paranoia .

I am a person with dual citizenship ie I am a British citizen by way of my father .

I never said viewing from afar gave me clarity, but it does allow one to view the details with less emotional feelings like  flag waving and chest beating ,when the UK is mired in a Brexit  that is going down like a cup of cold sick ,a distraction is needed to still show unity exists between the UK and EU to some extent as the big bad  bear is back.

The last time I was in the UK the Russians had a power plant problem and we watched the radioactive cloud on TV news at 6pm, then there was that disgusting mad cow disease episode in the UK ,so one hazard is readily detectable the other can hideaway undetectable for many years then.......perhaps I'm just showing symptoms now ( check no slobbering or violent spasms )...no I watched the Russians on the interview and heard their story (minus the party, weed  and girls ) then I had a look at some other reports that added a balance to contrast the chest beating May, Boris rhetoric .

Don whistle blowers in the Western  media don't get poisoned by the state for expressing their views ........I beg to differ  many that have exposed corruption crime etc have disappeared or been poisoned via a lead projectile or are living under another countries protection inside an embassy .

Don you have read the Craig Murray summation just as I have and if the UK Govt expects us ( I am a citizen although not living there ) to believe their fairy tales I need a lot more facts rather than bullshit and bravado.

Don Atkinson posted:

Two Russian assassins, carrying out an asignment would need a reasonable cover story. Not so good as to be totally convincing, just reasonable.

These two have a reasonable cover story. It’s almost a classic. Good enough for the Russian Gov to be able to sit back and deny, but clearly thin enough to be assured it is virtually transparent. The Russian Gov can now be sure we know they did it and they know we know they did it but, as Jamie said above, they really don’t care one jot about anything.

Don,

I don't believe that the Russians don't care about this episode of events it is detrimental to all .

I have a friend visiting Russia at the moment for the first time and his reaction is Russia is nothing like how it is depicted by  the Western media ,fresh eyes and an open mind ,I hope he returns safely.

RussR posted:

Hi Don ,

There is nothing disingenuous in my last paragraph except your paranoia .

 

I am a person with dual citizenship ie I am a British citizen by way of my father .

I never said viewing from afar gave me clarity, but it does allow one to view the details with less emotional feelings like  flag waving and chest beating ,when the UK is mired in a Brexit  that is going down like a cup of cold sick ,a distraction is needed to still show unity exists between the UK and EU to some extent as the big bad  bear is back.

The last time I was in the UK the Russians had a power plant problem and we watched the radioactive cloud on TV news at 6pm, then there was that disgusting mad cow disease episode in the UK ,so one hazard is readily detectable the other can hideaway undetectable for many years then.......perhaps I'm just showing symptoms now ( check no slobbering or violent spasms )...no I watched the Russians on the interview and heard their story (minus the party, weed  and girls ) then I had a look at some other reports that added a balance to contrast the chest beating May, Boris rhetoric .

Don whistle blowers in the Western  media don't get poisoned by the state for expressing their views ........I beg to differ  many that have exposed corruption crime etc have disappeared or been poisoned via a lead projectile or are living under another countries protection inside an embassy .

Don you have read the Craig Murray summation just as I have and if the UK Govt expects us ( I am a citizen although not living there ) to believe their fairy tales I need a lot more facts rather than bullshit and bravado.

 

 

Live your dream, and keep up your disingenuous statements. You clearly have absolutely no knowledge of life in the U.K. at present. Despite our discussions on this forum and what you might infer from media presentations, it’s generally quite good.

Don Atkinson posted:

RussR posted:

Hi Don ,

There is nothing disingenuous in my last paragraph except your paranoia .

 

I am a person with dual citizenship ie I am a British citizen by way of my father .

I never said viewing from afar gave me clarity, but it does allow one to view the details with less emotional feelings like  flag waving and chest beating ,when the UK is mired in a Brexit  that is going down like a cup of cold sick ,a distraction is needed to still show unity exists between the UK and EU to some extent as the big bad  bear is back.

The last time I was in the UK the Russians had a power plant problem and we watched the radioactive cloud on TV news at 6pm, then there was that disgusting mad cow disease episode in the UK ,so one hazard is readily detectable the other can hideaway undetectable for many years then.......perhaps I'm just showing symptoms now ( check no slobbering or violent spasms )...no I watched the Russians on the interview and heard their story (minus the party, weed  and girls ) then I had a look at some other reports that added a balance to contrast the chest beating May, Boris rhetoric .

Don whistle blowers in the Western  media don't get poisoned by the state for expressing their views ........I beg to differ  many that have exposed corruption crime etc have disappeared or been poisoned via a lead projectile or are living under another countries protection inside an embassy .

Don you have read the Craig Murray summation just as I have and if the UK Govt expects us ( I am a citizen although not living there ) to believe their fairy tales I need a lot more facts rather than bullshit and bravado.

 

 

Live your dream, and keep up your disingenuous statements. You clearly have absolutely no knowledge of life in the U.K. at present. Despite our discussions on this forum and what you might infer from media presentations, it’s generally quite good.

Hi Don ,

Obviously you feel I have slighted you in some way by having a different opinion on the events ,that was not my intention ,I wanted to express another viewpoint which in your mind is forbidden and you sling assertions of poor character in my direction .

Sorry Don I will sit on the naughty seat and not post any further on this subject as you seem to feel I am putting yourself and the rest of the UK public in an invidious position. Bye.

RussR posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

Two Russian assassins, carrying out an asignment would need a reasonable cover story. Not so good as to be totally convincing, just reasonable.

These two have a reasonable cover story. It’s almost a classic. Good enough for the Russian Gov to be able to sit back and deny, but clearly thin enough to be assured it is virtually transparent. The Russian Gov can now be sure we know they did it and they know we know they did it but, as Jamie said above, they really don’t care one jot about anything.

Don,

I don't believe that the Russians don't care about this episode of events it is detrimental to all .

I have a friend visiting Russia at the moment for the first time and his reaction is Russia is nothing like how it is depicted by  the Western media ,fresh eyes and an open mind ,I hope he returns safely.

Firstly, I am not sure that Russian people and normal Russian life are depicted negatively in any way by the 'Western media'. The World Cup hosted by Russia and the friendliness of the Russian people received almost uniform praise in the Western media.

However, there is a huge difference between Russian people and Putin and his cronies. Critics of Putin, his corruption and his style of government have over recent years had a nasty habit of being 'eliminated'. It really isn't as if the Salisbury incidents have broken the mould, and that there isn't a history of such incidents.

The story concocted by Putin and the individuals allegedly involved in the incidents is blatantly ludicrous. Much as I dislike the right wing press in the UK and some of the politicians on the right wing of the Tory party who have played bit parts in this story, I have little doubt that Putin and the Russian Intelligence services were indeed culpable and that they are fairly comfortable with the idea that most people outside Russia believe this to be the case. 

RussR

Don't forget that Russia has a long tradition of political assassination; whereas the UK has a long held repugnance of it.  There have only been two political assassinations committed here by UK citizens here in the last 300 years and the last one of those was carried out by a mental health service user who had stopped taking his medication (all the other political assassinations here were perpetrated by Irish nationals as what they regarded as acts of war rather than as assassinations).

Even Australia has had five political assassinations.

RUSSR,

I think you make a number of valid points, I strongly suggest it’s valuable for healthy debate to continue to contribute.

Obviously here in the uk, we are drip fed by Government information to lead us to a particular conclusion ..... as is the case in most countries...

So observations from a neutral are informative and useful .....

Huge posted:

RussR

Don't forget that Russia has a long tradition of political assassination; whereas the UK has a long held repugnance of it.  There have only been two political assassinations committed here by UK citizens here in the last 300 years and the last one of those was carried out by a mental health service user who had stopped taking his medication (all the other political assassinations here were perpetrated by Irish nationals as what they regarded as acts of war rather than as assassinations).

Even Australia has had five political assassinations.

 

Hi Huge,

I am a New Zealander by birth  living in Australia .

Australia was used as a penal colony for the British Empire and the indigenous people were slaughtered as they were deemed less than human .

Huge the British Empire has committed numerous atrocities in the last 150 years in the name of the Queen as have most European countries ,the British Empire in ,Kenya and Iran,the French in Haiti,the Belgiums in the Congo ,the Germans in Nigeria  come on don't sanitise the facts they are there for all to read.The Russians are in there also, but when you have a spent asset and need political gain for the bigger picture the redundant asset is collateral damage. I'm not sure who has done it as the facts don't all add up but the feeling from Don, Hmack ,and yourself are giving Russia the thumbs down without conclusive proof ,Hell glad I don't have you guys on a jury .As Roger Waters penned on the Wall " there's on in the spotlight he don't look right to me , get him up against the Wall"

wenger2015 posted:

RUSSR,

I think you make a number of valid points, I strongly suggest it’s valuable for healthy debate to continue to contribute.

Obviously here in the uk, we are drip fed by Government information to lead us to a particular conclusion ..... as is the case in most countries...

So observations from a neutral are informative and useful .....

Hi wenger2015,

I don't want to upset anyone BUT the truth is something to be savoured and at times it is a very bitter pill to swallow .I like many want to get the truth not some politically modified sanitised version of it that is dribbled out to maximise the political gain ,hell I have family and friends in the UK I want them to be safe . 

It was not so long ago an American President and UK PM stood on the world stage accusing another state of having WOMD all without a shred of proof ,and look where that took us ..........................?

All the rhetoric and finger pointing is ridiculous without proof one way or the other.

You are spot on wenger2015 all Governments drip feed information for their own political gain and to steer public opinion.

If you know Salisbury, & if pictures & times recorded in CCTV are correct, then the Russian story just does not stack up,  there really is no discussion on that.   2x2 rail journeys to "visit the cathedral" & each of those visits duration had no chance to see whatever in the cathedral.   But keep in mind the UK is one of the most CCTV covered countries on the planet; to go from the station to the cathedral they would have been seen by many camera's, both police & private/shop security all along the route between rail station & the cathedral,  plus the camera's in the cathedral itself.  Instead they went in the other direction.   

Yes agreed, as in most countries,  we are drip fed only what the info the Gov/Police/MI5 & MI6 want us to see,  & of course in this case what they want the Russians to see.   And I suspect there is a whole lot more that is deliberately not being made available, the real names of the "tourists" for example.

RussR posted:

Huge posted:

RussR

Don't forget that Russia has a long tradition of political assassination; whereas the UK has a long held repugnance of it.  There have only been two political assassinations committed here by UK citizens here in the last 300 years and the last one of those was carried out by a mental health service user who had stopped taking his medication (all the other political assassinations here were perpetrated by Irish nationals as what they regarded as acts of war rather than as assassinations).

Even Australia has had five political assassinations.

 

Hi Huge,

I am a New Zealander by birth  living in Australia .

Australia was used as a penal colony for the British Empire and the indigenous people were slaughtered as they were deemed less than human .

Huge the British Empire has committed numerous atrocities in the last 150 years in the name of the Queen as have most European countries ,the British Empire in ,Kenya and Iran,the French in Haiti,the Belgiums in the Congo ,the Germans in Nigeria  come on don't sanitise the facts they are there for all to read.The Russians are in there also, but when you have a spent asset and need political gain for the bigger picture the redundant asset is collateral damage. I'm not sure who has done it as the facts don't all add up but the feeling from Don, Hmack ,and yourself are giving Russia the thumbs down without conclusive proof ,Hell glad I don't have you guys on a jury .As Roger Waters penned on the Wall " there's on in the spotlight he don't look right to me , get him up against the Wall"

Hi RussR,

The historical record stands on it's own, however...

May I refer you to my previous post:

Huge posted:

Moog posted:

For a different point of view.    https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/     

Indeed a very interesting article - very different from the account posted in our media!

 Not quite so unthinkingly pro UK Goverment's position perhaps, more open minded maybe?

International diplomacy is inherently Machiavellian in all directions: "suggesting the principles of conduct laid down by Machiavelli; specifically : marked by cunning, duplicity, or bad faith".  (Merriam-Webster).

Reading through these posts I am really struggling to understand how anybody could have a counter-view of these events. What's next, Holocaust denial? It's simply not worth getting into, end of.

RussR,

I have to say that I find your posts to be very strange, and you appear to be a very recent member of the forum.

Just out of interest, what exactly is your view of what happened in Salisbury? Is your opinion that:

A) The incident in Salisbury has nothing to do with Putin and Russia, and that the whole situation was concocted by the British Government and Intelligence service in order to deflect from difficulties relating to Brexit.

B) There is a reasonably strong possibility that the Russian Intelligence service was behind the incident, but no conclusive proof (in your estimation) has been put forward.

C) In all probability the Russian Intelligence Service was behind the incident in Salisbury, but you just want to make a point about atrocities carried out in the past in the name of British imperialism. 

D) Something else entirely happened in Salisbury, and if so what do you think this might have been? 

I would genuinely be interested to hear what you think took place in Salisbury.