Salisbury

Hmack posted:

RussR,

I have to say that I find your posts to be very strange, and you appear to be a very recent member of the forum.

Just out of interest, what exactly is your view of what happened in Salisbury? Is your opinion that:

A) The incident in Salisbury has nothing to do with Putin and Russia, and that the whole situation was concocted by the British Government and Intelligence service in order to deflect from difficulties relating to Brexit.

B) There is a reasonably strong possibility that the Russian Intelligence service was behind the incident, but no conclusive proof (in your estimation) has been put forward.

C) In all probability the Russian Intelligence Service was behind the incident in Salisbury, but you just want to make a point about atrocities carried out in the past in the name of British imperialism. 

D) Something else entirely happened in Salisbury, and if so what do you think this might have been? 

I would genuinely be interested to hear what you think took place in Salisbury.

Hi Hmack,

I honestly have not seen conclusive proof yet that it was the 2 Russians pictured the victims have a story to tell as well ie they turned off their mobile phones and disappeared from view for some period of time that in itself is strange behaviour .Were they meeting these 2 Russians? were they meeting a contact from MI5 or MI6 ? were they just wanting a little quiet time? But obviously something occurred while they were awol.

I have been in the back ground reading the forum for more than 20 years but have only recently (last 3 years ) joined the forum.You may find my posts strange I don't drink the coolaid that is dished up for the sheeple as I don't accept the blind faith position without proof, that seems logical to me .Just as you would not take advice about a Naim product from a member without a home audition to substantiate the fact  for yourself.

I have a gut feeling B is a big part of the answer but as I have said the 2 victims have not accounted for their movements and I have a strong feeling that the Secret service MI5 MI6 know a lot more about this and are in it up to their necks,This reaction is in part attributed to how the Government Boris ,May etc have apportioned blame immediately to the Russians without an ounce of evidence at that time, and what they are dishing up has a strong stench to it. Hmack A is a loaded answer, I do believe May and co were desperate for any distraction to take the focus off the train wreck brexit situation ,but it has seriously larger implications which need to be avoided .

I believe most countries have committed atrocities and we British ( even those slightly removed) are the first to point the finger at the Nazi's ,we must remember the British Empire had concentration camps in South Africa ,Boer War era committed horrific acts upon the people of Kenya and Iran .Also remember nations were very reluctant to take any Jews as refuges at the time of WW2.But the education system tells fluffy fairy tales about the glorious valour of battle .

The loss of life is horrific my grand mother on my mothers side lost her brother in WW1 at the somme he came from a very small settlement on the Banks Pennisular called Puaha Valley ,the closest town was Little River where there was a railway line .When you see how many young men from this tiny place never came back it leaves a huge hole in that society ,very much greater than in a city situation.My father from Northampton (Brafield) was in the army and ended up a POW in a Jap camp in Singapore then shipped off to Japan ,he came to NZ after the war  looking for a fresh start .

Mike-B I have travelled a lot sometimes you just walk around and don't go the direct route to the scenic wonders not everyone follows the prescribed shortest distance to the church or whatever ,Hell I walked for miles around London not having a clue where I was at times but I managed to see the sights it just took a little longer.

From your description of how heavily covered Salisbury is with CCTV it is strange that the victims disappeared with little trouble for that period of time ( no cctv or mobile phone info) they must have good knowledge of where to go to avoid this type of surveillance .

RussR posted:

I'm not sure who has done it as the facts don't all add up but the feeling from Don, Hmack ,and yourself are giving Russia the thumbs down without conclusive proof ,Hell glad I don't have you guys on a jury .As Roger Waters penned on the Wall " there's on in the spotlight he don't look right to me , get him up against the Wall"

Think you're missing the point, RussR - a jury in such a case would not need to provide "conclusive proof" but proof beyond a reasonable doubt. To quote Wikipedia:

Proof beyond a reasonable doubt, therefore, is proof of such a convincing character that one would be willing to rely and act upon it without hesitation in the most important of one's own affairs. However, it does not mean an absolute certainty. The standard that must be met by the prosecution's evidence in a criminal prosecution is that no other logical explanation can be derived from the facts except that the defendant committed the crime, thereby overcoming the presumption that a person is innocent unless and until proven guilty.

By this standard, based on information in the public domain at this time, it would seem legitimate to me that the UK seek to see the Novichok poisoning suspects in court, where they would be at liberty to offer a defence (credible or otherwise). However, because the Russian state does not allow for the extradition of its citizens, there is zero likelihood of this coming to pass. 

This scenario provides ample fodder for armchair conspiracy theorists, particularly those with an axe to grind - which certainly seems to be the case so far as you are concerned. It would seem that your stance on past British imperial misdemeanours predisposes you to automatically give credence to any narrative that opposes the UK establishment line?

However, and as has been said before on this thread, most people are perfectly capable of keeping an open mind and forming their own opinion about the culpability of the suspects. 

Duncan Mann posted:

RussR posted:

I'm not sure who has done it as the facts don't all add up but the feeling from Don, Hmack ,and yourself are giving Russia the thumbs down without conclusive proof ,Hell glad I don't have you guys on a jury .As Roger Waters penned on the Wall " there's on in the spotlight he don't look right to me , get him up against the Wall"

By this standard, based on information in the public domain at this time, it would seem legitimate to me that the UK seek to see the Novichok poisoning suspects in court, where they would be at liberty to offer a defence (credible or otherwise). 

What information is in the public domain that deems that they should offer a defense ?

Is there strong enough evidence for a trial to take place ?

In the court of public opinion the two Russian guys have probably be found guilty.  A criminal trial in the UK would set a much higher bar.  My guess is that on the 'evidence' described by the media it would be hard to secure a conviction beyond a reasonable doubt as the videos (active and by absence) timings and questions about their passports seem to me circumstantial. Now, if a trace of novichok could be proven to have been in their hotel room, that might be a clincher.  Of course, the UK's security services have probably got detail that isn't in the public domain but the whole thing is entirely theoretical because there is zero chance of the Russian authorities extraditing either of the individuals.   

Wugged Woy posted:

Duncan Mann posted:

RussR posted:

I'm not sure who has done it as the facts don't all add up but the feeling from Don, Hmack ,and yourself are giving Russia the thumbs down without conclusive proof ,Hell glad I don't have you guys on a jury .As Roger Waters penned on the Wall " there's on in the spotlight he don't look right to me , get him up against the Wall"

By this standard, based on information in the public domain at this time, it would seem legitimate to me that the UK seek to see the Novichok poisoning suspects in court, where they would be at liberty to offer a defence (credible or otherwise). 

What information is in the public domain that deems that they should offer a defense ?

Is there strong enough evidence for a trial to take place ?

WW, I'm offering up my personal take on the scenario ("it would seem legitimate to me"), not trying to sound omniscient. 

I don't propose to summate all the information in the public domain as you're no doubt perfectly capable of using the internet, and also because the armchair conspiracy theorists would jump upon the minutae and claim that established fact is merely supposition  - in line with the fake news ploy becoming commonplace these days. 

However, from my perspective, the evidence (the veracity of which seems to have been accepted by independent agencies and states outside the UK) seems to point to the means (the Novichok agent, not exactly widely available), the motive ("traitors will kick the bucket") and the opportunity (the now proven movements of the hapless Russian "tourists"). 

If extradition were allowed, the suspects would be questioned by law enforcement agencies prior to be charged with any offence. I guess the responses given in that scenario would determine the answer to your second question - is there strong enough evidence for a trial to take place? I would also imagine that there may be forensic evidence that is as yet undisclosed that could be relevant.

But as I noted previously, the chances of the suspects ever having their day in court is nominal at best, hence my concluding remark earlier that they will be effectively tried in the court of public opinion, unless they choose to defend themselves in person.

RussR posted:

Mike-B I have travelled a lot sometimes you just walk around and don't go the direct route to the scenic wonders not everyone follows the prescribed shortest distance to the church or whatever ,Hell I walked for miles around London not having a clue where I was at times but I managed to see the sights it just took a little longer.

From your description of how heavily covered Salisbury is with CCTV it is strange that the victims disappeared with little trouble for that period of time ( no cctv or mobile phone info) they must have good knowledge of where to go to avoid this type of surveillance .

When you walk out of Salisbury rail station the cathedral spire is straight in front of you, its on the skyline & is one of the more obvious things on view,  especially if the purpose of your trip is to visit the cathedral.   So why on their 1st visit, especially as tourists (or even if on an assassination mission)  did they not have a Salisbury city map? - highly unlikely for both scenario's; so why did they walk off in the opposite direction?

Re your 2nd point - as I understand the sequence of events;   On the 1st day visit (the so called reconnaissance day) from the station they walked away from the city into a housing area (less CCTV) & the area of the Skripal house.   The 2nd day (allegedly when they applied the Novichok) , they would have retraced the previous days route.     After that it appears they walked back to the station & then on to Queen Elizabeth Gardens where they allegedly disposed of the Novichok in the perfume bottle,  the station to Elizabeth Gardens is a walk of less than 0.5 mile (0.8km) & again is through a housing &/or main road area.   

As someone who used to work in a pesticide residues lab, I'm curious to know how the suspects are still alive. CCTV shows them in ordinary clothing. Yet administering novichok from an aerosol bottle would give them a significant exposure I would have thought. Maybe they took atropine before they squirted the bottle.

If they had put on disposable gloves and masks I would have expected those to have been found by now.

Putin quote from 2010.

"Traitors will kick the bucket,"

"Trust me. These people betrayed their friends, their brothers in arms. Whatever they got in exchange for it, those thirty pieces silver they were given, they will choke on them.”

Christopher_M posted:

I'm curious to know how the suspects are still alive. CCTV shows them in ordinary clothing. Yet administering novichok from an aerosol bottle would give them a significant exposure I would have thought. Maybe they took atropine before they squirted the bottle.

...including surviving the wrath of their bosses back in the Kremlin when it became apparent that the assassination attempt had failed. 

Ah, Mike, you took my words somewhat out of context of organo-phosphorus poisoning there.

Duncan Mann posted

 

 

But as I noted previously, the chances of the suspects ever having their day in court is nominal at best, hence my concluding remark earlier that they will be effectively tried in the court of public opinion, unless they choose to defend themselves in person.

In the one other highly documented case of poisoning in the UK by suspected Russian operatives, the 2 people fingered for the crime were considerably less careful then these 2 suspects and left a trail of Polonium-210 behind them which was easy for the authorities to follow. Despite the overwhelming evidence left by Andrey Lugovoy and Dmitry Kovtun implicating both men in the murder of Alexander Litvinenko,  Russia not only refused to hand over both men for questioning (as it would refuse any extradition request), but claimed there was no evidence so yes, I agree with Duncan Mann that there is not likely to be a day when these 2 suspects will ever have a case to answer to.

Christopher_M posted:

As someone who used to work in a pesticide residues lab, I'm curious to know how the suspects are still alive. CCTV shows them in ordinary clothing. Yet administering novichok from an aerosol bottle would give them a significant exposure I would have thought. Maybe they took atropine before they squirted the bottle.

If they had put on disposable gloves and masks I would have expected those to have been found by now.

 I very much doubt it was applied as an aerosol,  or as you suggest the suspects would be dead.   As I understand it, the bottle was a purpose made applicator disguised to look like a brand of perfume called Nina Ricci.    Press reports say counter terror officers have spoken to the company & its clear that this was NOT a genuine bottle, box or nozzle.

Duncan Mann posted:

RussR posted:

I'm not sure who has done it as the facts don't all add up but the feeling from Don, Hmack ,and yourself are giving Russia the thumbs down without conclusive proof ,Hell glad I don't have you guys on a jury .As Roger Waters penned on the Wall " there's on in the spotlight he don't look right to me , get him up against the Wall"

Think you're missing the point, RussR - a jury in such a case would not need to provide "conclusive proof" but proof beyond a reasonable doubt. To quote Wikipedia:

Proof beyond a reasonable doubt, therefore, is proof of such a convincing character that one would be willing to rely and act upon it without hesitation in the most important of one's own affairs. However, it does not mean an absolute certainty. The standard that must be met by the prosecution's evidence in a criminal prosecution is that no other logical explanation can be derived from the facts except that the defendant committed the crime, thereby overcoming the presumption that a person is innocent unless and until proven guilty.

By this standard, based on information in the public domain at this time, it would seem legitimate to me that the UK seek to see the Novichok poisoning suspects in court, where they would be at liberty to offer a defence (credible or otherwise). However, because the Russian state does not allow for the extradition of its citizens, there is zero likelihood of this coming to pass. 

This scenario provides ample fodder for armchair conspiracy theorists, particularly those with an axe to grind - which certainly seems to be the case so far as you are concerned. It would seem that your stance on past British imperial misdemeanours predisposes you to automatically give credence to any narrative that opposes the UK establishment line?

However, and as has been said before on this thread, most people are perfectly capable of keeping an open mind and forming their own opinion about the culpability of the suspects. 

 

Hi Duncan ,

My axe to grind is nothing more than pointing out that good old Blighty is just as guilty of committing atrocities  as the Russians and any other nation with expansionist desires ,it predisposes me to question who has what to gain from this act .Just remember there is an Australian holed up in London in the embassy of Equador and his crime is ..............a big fat fabrication via Sweden and the US with the UK playing it's part to keep the truth hidden.That is my opinion .

This sad event will be played out in the media and I guess in forums like this one for some time and people will feel affronted when a view contrary to their own is put forward .

As I said I'm only interested in the truth of the matter and the Skripal pair have I believe the answers to our questions ,whether they talk is another matter.

Mike-B posted:

nozzle.

Thanks. I'd read about the bottle and packaging being specially fabricated (ie not Nina Ricci) but not the actual applicator. Nor have I seen that pic until now.

Sorry for coming to this thread so late on in its life but having read your contributions Russr your perplexing posts all make sense now with your last post.  You just wanted to take the opportunity to take a pop at the UK because you felt aggrieved by the UKs action regarding your compatriot and I presume hero, Julian Asstrange.  Only a die hard Putin supporter or feeble minded idiot would fail to make a connection between the actions of the two goons and their sightseeing trip to Salisbury. 

RussR posted:

Just remember there is an Australian holed up in London in the embassy of Equador and his crime is ..............a big fat fabrication via Sweden and the US with the UK playing it's part to keep the truth hidden.That is my opinion. 

Thread Drift Warning                    RE Julian Assange:     Swedish prosecutors have dropped their investigation into the rape accusation & applied to revoke the European arrest warrant.,  so he is free to leave the Embassy.   His problem is he is likely that he will arrested by the London (Met) Police for the criminal offence of failing to surrender to his bail.

July 2018, Ecuadorian President Lenín Moreno started talks with UK to withdraw his country's asylum for Assange.   What the Met will do when he is “required” to leave the embassy remains to be seen.

I guess his big fear is the prospect of extradition to US in the case of US vs Wikileaks (Assange). Google have cooperated & released the e-mails & metadata. The latest info I can find is that in April 2017, U.S. officials revealed they were preparing to file formal charges against Assange.

Mike-B posted:

RussR posted:

Just remember there is an Australian holed up in London in the embassy of Equador and his crime is ..............a big fat fabrication via Sweden and the US with the UK playing it's part to keep the truth hidden.That is my opinion. 

Thread Drift Warning                    RE Julian Assange:     Swedish prosecutors have dropped their investigation into the rape accusation & applied to revoke the European arrest warrant.,  so he is free to leave the Embassy.   His problem is he is likely that he will arrested by the London (Met) Police for the criminal offence of failing to surrender to his bail.

July 2018, Ecuadorian President Lenín Moreno started talks with UK to withdraw his country's asylum for Assange.   What the Met will do when he is “required” to leave the embassy remains to be seen.

I guess his big fear is the prospect of extradition to US in the case of US vs Wikileaks (Assange). Google have cooperated & released the e-mails & metadata. The latest info I can find is that in April 2017, U.S. officials revealed they were preparing to file formal charges against Assange.

When the day comes that Assange decides to walk out of the Embassy, no doubt there will be a whole other thread on the forum. I for one will contribute as I feel very conflicted between the man and his actions - whilst he did provide much needed insight into the darker corners of the world’s governance, it is a pity he is so much of a pompous self aggrandising jerk. IMHO of course...

Coming back to  the subject matter of the thread, however, I do find RUSSR’s attempt to conflate the Skripal poisoning with the Assange scenario a rather bizarre attempt at Whataboutery. At this juncture I do find HMG somewhat more credible than RUSSR!

Your mileage may vary...

Mike-B posted:

RussR posted:

Just remember there is an Australian holed up in London in the embassy of Equador and his crime is ..............a big fat fabrication via Sweden and the US with the UK playing it's part to keep the truth hidden.That is my opinion.

  

???? RussR,.....Yes,..you never cease to be amazed at what fantasies some people can "cook together".

So you mean in all seriousness,..That several women,independently of each other,report Assange for rape because they have nothing better to do ????....absolutely incredible.!!

Of course these women knows that it will be very much writings,..So that you as a woman take this step,and want him to have his punishment by being tried in court is commendable.

It cannot be so much fun,..that the whole world knows that you has been raped.

And what then does this little wretch to man, well he flees to England instead of addressing the rape allegations in court.
He has stayed away so that the Limitation Period expired for the rape accusations ,..That is why the allegations have been withdrawn.

Because this joke to a man,does not dare to meet the women who accuse him of rape.
Can you seem more guilty than that?

That he then during all these years at the embassy,sat and found on all possible scenarios,....it is well understandable,he must of course have something to do in his room at the embassy.

But RussR,..your post above...well,yeah..Once again a man who reduces women's rights...Incredibly I say.

/Peder ????

To RusR,

Our expansionist tendencies went years ago and even when we had an empire it was built more around trade than military conquest.

Also, there is a sharp contrast between the two countries in how the media portrays/relates to the government - the BBC for example are nearly always critical of whoever is in office....which is not the case in Russia with Putin.

Ray

Steve2 posted:

Sorry for coming to this thread so late on in its life but having read your contributions Russr your perplexing posts all make sense now with your last post.  You just wanted to take the opportunity to take a pop at the UK because you felt aggrieved by the UKs action regarding your compatriot and I presume hero, Julian Asstrange.  Only a die hard Putin supporter or feeble minded idiot would fail to make a connection between the actions of the two goons and their sightseeing trip to Salisbury. 

Hi Steve,

I reply with a NO to that conclusion about Assange ,I only used it as an example of how one can be persecuted without any real facts or proof.As this was found out after the Swedish dropped the false charges as they didn't stand up to scrutiny .

Taking a pop at the UK................ha they did that to their antipodean Commonwealth trade partners way back when they joined the EU common market and flipped their traditional trading partners the bird!!!!!!!!!!! Now I see they are back knocking on the door of these long forgotten outposts with a line like " Remember Me " want to do a deal.

So Steve you are wrong in conclusion ,funny that when some get to hear how another sees their actions they get all defensive with chest beating and patriotism .

Mike-B .Thanks for posting the picture of the applicator bottle ,this is the first I have seen of it ,and it explains how the user avoided being a victim .

As I said Steve2 I just want the truth and the proof to come out and to date the dribble from the Govt and Police has been a problem .

Peder posted:

Mike-B posted:

RussR posted:

Just remember there is an Australian holed up in London in the embassy of Equador and his crime is ..............a big fat fabrication via Sweden and the US with the UK playing it's part to keep the truth hidden.That is my opinion.

  

???? RussR,.....Yes,..you never cease to be amazed at what fantasies some people can "cook together".

So you mean in all seriousness,..That several women,independently of each other,report Assange for rape because they have nothing better to do ????....absolutely incredible.!!

Of course these women knows that it will be very much writings,..So that you as a woman take this step,and want him to have his punishment by being tried in court is commendable.

It cannot be so much fun,..that the whole world knows that you has been raped.

And what then does this little wretch to man, well he flees to England instead of addressing the rape allegations in court.
He has stayed away so that the Limitation Period expired for the rape accusations ,..That is why the allegations have been withdrawn.

Because this joke to a man,does not dare to meet the women who accuse him of rape.
Can you seem more guilty than that?

That he then during all these years at the embassy,sat and found on all possible scenarios,....it is well understandable,he must of course have something to do in his room at the embassy.

But RussR,..your post above...well,yeah..Once again a man who reduces women's rights...Incredibly I say.

/Peder ????

Peder

I just know that Assange would never get a fair hearing Sweden is playing middle man for the USA as he has embarrassed the US to many times with leaks of the truth.

Rape is a terrible thing to happen to anyone man or woman ,so that was never my intention to go there ,when a person like Assange socialises he is a magnet for many who wish to be involved in his life in some way ,As a married man he shows scant regard for his wife and children to engage in this manner for that I am disgusted in his behaviour. As one who has exposed the criminal behaviour of Governments and corporations I admire that part of this flawed human being.

Womens rights I come from a country that gave women the vote way before many even looked at a woman as anything but a slave ,and our PM is a woman. So NO to that .

If you don't think the Swedes would "play fair" then you clearly don't understand the Nordic mindset.

Huge posted:

If you don't think the Swedes would "play fair" then you clearly don't understand the Nordic mindset.

100% Huge,  to say that "I know he would never get a fair hearing"  is ridiculous.    Sweden has dropped the investigation into the rape accusation simply because of time limits enshrined in their laws.  That's why Assange was holed up in the embassy,  waiting for the time limit period to end.  

Now all he has to face is the pending arrest by the 'Met' for failing to surrender to his bail.   That & to face his supporters who were ordered to forfeit the £93,500 of the £140,000 they stumped up for him.

Next is the extradition request from USA,  not sure if or when that will happen,  but the fact that he will be forever looking over is shoulder is no bad thing in my book.   

Duncan Mann posted:

Mike-B posted:

RussR posted:

Just remember there is an Australian holed up in London in the embassy of Equador and his crime is ..............a big fat fabrication via Sweden and the US with the UK playing it's part to keep the truth hidden.That is my opinion. 

Thread Drift Warning                    RE Julian Assange:     Swedish prosecutors have dropped their investigation into the rape accusation & applied to revoke the European arrest warrant.,  so he is free to leave the Embassy.   His problem is he is likely that he will arrested by the London (Met) Police for the criminal offence of failing to surrender to his bail.

July 2018, Ecuadorian President Lenín Moreno started talks with UK to withdraw his country's asylum for Assange.   What the Met will do when he is “required” to leave the embassy remains to be seen.

I guess his big fear is the prospect of extradition to US in the case of US vs Wikileaks (Assange). Google have cooperated & released the e-mails & metadata. The latest info I can find is that in April 2017, U.S. officials revealed they were preparing to file formal charges against Assange.

When the day comes that Assange decides to walk out of the Embassy, no doubt there will be a whole other thread on the forum. I for one will contribute as I feel very conflicted between the man and his actions - whilst he did provide much needed insight into the darker corners of the world’s governance, it is a pity he is so much of a pompous self aggrandising jerk. IMHO of course...

Coming back to  the subject matter of the thread, however, I do find RUSSR’s attempt to conflate the Skripal poisoning with the Assange scenario a rather bizarre attempt at Whataboutery. At this juncture I do find HMG somewhat more credible than RUSSR!

Your mileage may vary...

Duncan,

I agree Assange is a pompous jerk a flawed human yes , But one who has helped the rest of us see the lies and corruption our Govt's indulge in ,that is extremely important.

Oh my are we being so contrary ,as I have said I want the TRUTH .But it appears many cannot see past there beer belly to get it in the porcelain and ascribe to chest beating and denigrating .I have not said  I know the all facts  in regards to the Salisbury episode I am looking for unbiased facts and the truth ,that is all . I am not really interested in pointless point scoring ,have a hot Horlicks and wrap up warm knowing HMG is telling you everything you wish to hear .

Before this thread veers off on some odd tangent about Julian Assange, let's just stop a moment and consider that this thread is about Salisbury.  The town has experienced an attack with a deadly nerve agent which has so far killed one person, and nearly killed others, and may still do further harm to anyone who came into contact with it unwittingly. Furthermore, it has had a profound effect on the city's inhabitants and businesses, which are still suffering both fiscally and emotionally in the aftermath.  Please bear that in mind.  Thanks.