Simple guide to Hi-Res

Hdtracks, but a minority of choices outside us.  Some dsd here.

qobuz and highrez audio Germany : the biggest sites.   On qobuz you can also buy single tunes.

bandcamp.   Naim audio downloads.     Good research Mr Strat!

Hi Mr. Strat.  First, there is the general idea that the quality of the underlying production is more important than the sampling rate of the data files you are purchasing.  There is NO guarantee that any given 24/192 "hi res" album will sound "better" to you than a cd-quality album if they are different masterings.  (This is why I have two versions of many of my favorite albums on my server; an older Mobile Fidelity Sound Labs version and a newer remaster (or the original release master) at hi res.)  So don't assume that a $15 purchase is better than what you can rip from your own cd. In some cases, albums I have bought from HDTracks sound worse to me than a cd rip!  

Second, there is the issue that one cannot audition these hi res purchases before purchase. We are plunking down $12-$25 per album and taking a risk.  So I tend to try to find online reviews; there are online forums dedicated to music that can be helpful such as the Steve Hoffman forums.

As to format per se, I am most happy buying my hi res music in the flac format (as that is what I store on my server).  I store in flac, and let my server convert to .wav when it sends the music to my players (ND555 or Qute2).  If I ever become convinced that it's better to store the files in .wav I'll mass convert everything.

I tend to shop around, as prices do vary.  HDTracks is accessible to me here in the States, and they run 'sales' from time to time usually 15% off.  If you simply search on Google for the album you want in flac, you'll find the other sites that sell it.  Once Qobuz is available in the States, the game will change a lot as they provide downloads as well I believe.

I would concentrate first on making good rips of the cd's you own.  This is not hard using a laptop. Do indeed experiment in the hi res world, but it would be a mistake to miss out on simply ripping your cd collection and putting them on your server and playing them; nothing wrong and everything right about that!!

Bart has pretty well said it all. I will however add one thing. The vast majority of the albums I like, have bought and will consider buying in the future are simply not available as hi res downloads. There is a danger that you err towards hi res downloading and miss out on stuff you like most (only available on CD) that could simply be ripped to local store. As Bart says, there is no guarantee that a hi res download will sound better than a ripped CD, as it depends on the mastering/version in question.

Do however experiment with some hi res downloads because there are some truly wonderful examples out there that sound stunning. Just don't ignore ripping your favourite CDs and remember that you can get some real CD bargains on 'tinternet, often pre loved, which I have never had any problems with.

BTW, I have bought hi res downloads from HDTracks, HighResAuio, Naim and Qobuz with no issues.

Couple of things from me. The UnitiCore, unlike Unitiserve or HDX can't convert from FLAC to WAV on the fly, so if you buy a Core you will be playing the format of download you saved to it unless you to a conversion in a PC and re-save it. Personally I buy WAV if I can and FLAC otherwise. 

And in terms of places to buy, PrestoClassical is good for classical music with good prices.

best

David

I have a UnitiServe and used to buy and store in WAV only. Once I got a NAS, primarily for back-up purposes at that time, I converted all my music files to Flac on the UnitiServe and copied those Flac files onto the NAS. Of course the UnitServe (and NAS with Asset UPnP server software) convert Flac to WAV on the fly as i still feel WAV sounds a little better than Flac on Naim streamers. In fact I now mostly use the QNAP NAS for serving duties (ripped CDs, hi res downloads and Tidal) with BubbleUPnP Server software with creates a Asset proxy and I believe it sounds better than the UnitiServe, which now is only used to rip CDs.

If I had to do it all again, I think I would forgo the UnitServe (and now the Core) and simply use a NAS for serving and rip on a PC or via an attached CD drive.

I've bought a lot of $2.00 used cd's to rip myself; a very cost-effective way to build a music library.

I rip 'em, back up, and throw away the silver disks.  I have no need to keep them around (and there is essentially no market to re-sell them myself).

In the UK you would be well advised to keep the CD since ripping one is not actually provided for in law currently and if you don't have the CD then you can't advance the defence argument that you own a licence rather than just stole the music from someone else's copy.

best

David

nigelb posted:

Bart has pretty well said it all. I will however add one thing. The vast majority of the albums I like, have bought and will consider buying in the future are simply not available as hi res downloads. There is a danger that you err towards hi res downloading and miss out on stuff you like most (only available on CD) that could simply be ripped to local store. As Bart says, there is no guarantee that a hi res download will sound better than a ripped CD, as it depends on the mastering/version in question.

Do however experiment with some hi res downloads because there are some truly wonderful examples out there that sound stunning. Just don't ignore ripping your favourite CDs and remember that you can get some real CD bargains on 'tinternet, often pre loved, which I have never had any problems with.

BTW, I have bought hi res downloads from HDTracks, HighResAuio, Naim and Qobuz with no issues.

This is very true - I tend to buy only hi res from Qobuz, perhaps because I have a Sublime subscription that gives discounts on hi res but not on CD, but largely as physical CDs are cheaper from online vendors and can then be ripped with CD retained as the master copy.

I'm not 100% convinced by hi-res, though as you suggest if purchasing new you'd err on the side of future proofing.

I do think hi-res may require better playback hardware s I really noticed a difference on hi-res files on an NDX 2 I tried vs my Nova.

David Hendon posted:

In the UK you would be well advised to keep the CD since ripping one is not actually provided for in law currently and if you don't have the CD then you can't advance the defence argument that you own a licence rather than just stole the music from someone else's copy.

best

David

The law changed several times over a short period and I've often wondered what the status would be if files that were actually ripped prior to the loss of legality for format shifting when it was actually legal to do so for a brief period (thanks music industry muppets) are technically ok.

I too keep the CDs, and personally feel morally obliged to do so even if they never or rarely get played in a physical CD player.

The reality of course is that the music industry would be bonkers to go after consumers when the majority of listeners have little interest in audio quality and use free services such as Spotify, which may well be more than adequate for their needs.

Oddly, our local supermarket has some kind of 'cash for tech' machine - they'll give you £10 for 30 CDs!  Pull the other one.  Same model as music Magpie I assume, could not believe that many pristine CDs are only worth pennies. 

Chaps - excellent thank you.   From this I deduce:

• That standard red-book CD is fine either ripped and served, or of course just played through a good CDP.  But, I do like the obvious flexibilities that come with the former.  
• Worth looking at Hi-Res when available for a new purchase but wouldn’t replicate existing stuff.  

Further question.   When making playlists can you mix and match on the app between material available on UPnP and Tidal?

Thanks again.

Lindsay

The Strat (Fender) posted:

Chaps - excellent thank you.   From this I deduce:

• That standard red-book CD is fine either ripped and served, or of course just played through a good CDP.  But, I do like the obvious flexibilities that come with the former.  
• Worth looking at Hi-Res when available for a new purchase but wouldn’t replicate existing stuff.  

Further question.   When making playlists can you mix and match on the app between material available on UPnP and Tidal?

Thanks again.

Lindsay

Text in Bold - not quite saying that as I'm constantly looking for old albums I had on vinyl/CD which are now available in HD to download, definitely a potential for better sound quality than worn vinyl or CD quality.  The annoyance perhaps is when you have an old vinyl LP which has seen better days but can only get a CD quality download - in this case buying CD from Amazon/whoever is often cheaper plus you get instant availability with AutoRip (admittedly lossy), but can rip the CD at full quality.

Italics - I don't think you can but have never tried as I don't use playlists much.

The Strat (Fender) posted:

Chaps - excellent thank you.   From this I deduce:

• That standard red-book CD is fine either ripped and served, or of course just played through a good CDP.  But, I do like the obvious flexibilities that come with the former.  
• Worth looking at Hi-Res when available for a new purchase but wouldn’t replicate existing stuff.  

Further question.   When making playlists can you mix and match on the app between material available on UPnP and Tidal?

Thanks again.

Lindsay

You can mix Tidal and locally stored tracks on the play QUEUE, but not on a saved play LIST. 

For what it’s worth, I find most HiRes downloads grossly overpriced for sound quality that is sometimes little different from the CD. 

Checked the price that musicmagpie offerers for CDs to get an idea of prices

Most are as little as 18 to 23 pence each 

Still wonder they can sell for about £1.85 Inc post though...

You may also check  findhdmusic.com and search for all available hd versions of your search world-wide

I’d add 7Digital, Highresaudio and Bleep as potential sources for 24-bit downloads, depending on your location and tastes. Prices vary so much between vendors it’s always worth comparing, and as noted above FindHDMusic can give you a head start on this, although its prices aren’t always up to date. Highresaudio offer a loyalty scheme that can knock a few pennies off your next purchase.

Occasionally there are crazy bargains to be had in Hi Res, so it’s worth subscribing to the Music on Special Offer thread here if you haven’t already. (I suspect many of us have happy memories of Qobuz’s occasional pricing glitches that have been highlighted in that thread.)

For CDs, I’ve started scouring branches of CEX for bargains, and have picked up a few for 20p each in perfectly rippable condition (artists such as Gnarls Barkley, Gomez, Yeah Yeah Yeahs and Starsailor; the last gasp of record industry indulgence before illegal downloading took hold).

nigelb posted:

Bart has pretty well said it all. I will however add one thing. The vast majority of the albums I like, have bought and will consider buying in the future are simply not available as hi res downloads. There is a danger that you err towards hi res downloading and miss out on stuff you like most (only available on CD) that could simply be ripped to local store. As Bart says, there is no guarantee that a hi res download will sound better than a ripped CD, as it depends on the mastering/version in question.

Do however experiment with some hi res downloads because there are some truly wonderful examples out there that sound stunning. Just don't ignore ripping your favourite CDs and remember that you can get some real CD bargains on 'tinternet, often pre loved, which I have never had any problems with.

BTW, I have bought hi res downloads from HDTracks, HighResAuio, Naim and Qobuz with no issues.

Is there any different in terms of sound between those hi-res services, or it does not matter?

meni48 posted:

nigelb posted:

Bart has pretty well said it all. I will however add one thing. The vast majority of the albums I like, have bought and will consider buying in the future are simply not available as hi res downloads. There is a danger that you err towards hi res downloading and miss out on stuff you like most (only available on CD) that could simply be ripped to local store. As Bart says, there is no guarantee that a hi res download will sound better than a ripped CD, as it depends on the mastering/version in question.

Do however experiment with some hi res downloads because there are some truly wonderful examples out there that sound stunning. Just don't ignore ripping your favourite CDs and remember that you can get some real CD bargains on 'tinternet, often pre loved, which I have never had any problems with.

BTW, I have bought hi res downloads from HDTracks, HighResAuio, Naim and Qobuz with no issues.

Is there any different in terms of sound between those hi-res services, or it does not matter?

For a like-for-like e.g. same studio master/mix, 24/96 etc then yes.

Hi,

Not sure if this breaks forum rules but there is some good basic info here - https://www.whathifi.com/advic...ing-you-need-to-know

meni48 posted:

nigelb posted:

Bart has pretty well said it all. I will however add one thing. The vast majority of the albums I like, have bought and will consider buying in the future are simply not available as hi res downloads. There is a danger that you err towards hi res downloading and miss out on stuff you like most (only available on CD) that could simply be ripped to local store. As Bart says, there is no guarantee that a hi res download will sound better than a ripped CD, as it depends on the mastering/version in question.

Do however experiment with some hi res downloads because there are some truly wonderful examples out there that sound stunning. Just don't ignore ripping your favourite CDs and remember that you can get some real CD bargains on 'tinternet, often pre loved, which I have never had any problems with.

BTW, I have bought hi res downloads from HDTracks, HighResAuio, Naim and Qobuz with no issues.

Is there any different in terms of sound between those hi-res services, or it does not matter?

I have only compared Spotify to Tidal (HiFi) and Tidal's SQ is considerably superior.

I have around 4000 albums on my NAS. About 2000 are hi res. Of the hi res about half are replacements of cd ripped files.

My experience has been that overwhelmingly the hi res files are better than the cd rips. I have had a few disappointments, (David Bowie Aladdin Sane springs to mind), but they are easily solved, just keep the old rip. Back when I had records the fail rate from bum pressings was much higher.

The jump from 16/44 cd rip to 24/44 download is very noticable. Many modern albums come out simultaneously on both, it's not hard to get a copy of both and compare. The few dollars you spend doubling up is nothing compared to the black box upgrades so I don't stress about this, just think of it as educational expense.

Of course, a lot of the hi res issues have been remastered, so comparing the hot off the, (virtual), press Sgt Pepper's 50th Anniversary issue with the older 2009 cd rip is not like for like. The label 2HD makes a big point about the remastering process, so Jazz At The Pawnshop on 24/192 is very different from my SACD rip.

I have also compared on five occasions the 24/192 against the 24/96 file. I figured that I should settle this issue as many downloads are offered in both. Here it's not so dramatic but I think the higher res is worthwhile. My belief is the step up to 24 bit is the biggest jump.

Most of my downloads have been in flac. My first download was from HD Tracks. They offered free sample tracks in aiff and flac. I compared the two a few times and honestly couldn't pick it.

I also have compared many format options ie cd v hi res and flac v aiff and 24/192 v 24/96 options. I did this with Linn label using Claire Martin and Bach. I know that these are beautifully recorded and I can't imagine they remaster for each release. You just go to the website, order the same album in the various formats / resolutions and spend some time doing comparisons.

Finally, I have compared my cd rips to direct play on the cd player. I only have a $700 Maranttz player. I rip on computer to my QNAP nas using db Poweramp accurate ripping, uncompressed flac. The rips streamed sound much better to me. I have also tried briefly a Naim CD5i. The rips still won out.

So I am pretty sold on hi res. 99% of the time it's a step up. Your music is the most valuable part of your hifi, so why not take the time to get it right from the start. Good albums will be with you for years and become faithful friends. So choose well.

steve95775 posted:

Of course, a lot of the hi res issues have been remastered, so comparing the hot off the, (virtual), press Sgt Pepper's 50th Anniversary issue with the older 2009 cd rip is not like for like. 

Sgt. Pepper's 50th anniversary edition is not merely remastered - it's a remix from different tapes, etc. Truly not apples for apples.

Bart posted:

steve95775 posted:

Of course, a lot of the hi res issues have been remastered, so comparing the hot off the, (virtual), press Sgt Pepper's 50th Anniversary issue with the older 2009 cd rip is not like for like. 

Sgt. Pepper's 50th anniversary edition is not merely remastered - it's a remix from different tapes, etc. Truly not apples for apples.

And here lies the problem. And the fun! 

As for Sgt Pepper's, years ago I got to compare an original, (albeit Australian), pressing to the MFSL box set stereo issue. My turntable was an LP12/Ekos/Troika and playback was via my aging tri-amp Isobariks. Awesome and of course I bought the MFSL set.  Currently I have a circa 1995 CD, the 2009 CD re-issue which was remastered, the 2009 24-44 Apple USB stick version of the same, and the recent 24-96 50th anniversary issue. I was born in 1959 and my older brothers had the record playing on the stereogram when I was a very involved 8 year old. So "Ä Day In The Life" has been a day in my life for over 50 years. I think I know the album well. Whilst I can't compare the vinyl anymore, and the tri-amps are long gone, there were details in the most recent issue that were so surprising and so wonderful. So yes, old analogue master tapes have deteriorated, audio memory is fickle, and my hearing is on the decline. Add to that too much red wine has addled my brain somewhat, and still I think I've never heard it better. I also think my lowly NAC172/NAP200/S400 system does a lot of things, (note not all), better than my old Isobariks. And detail in the mid/top is one of those.

I have some mixing desk studio masters which are set up with the final mix. These are from friends who have recorded albums. They're 24-96 WAV files. You can't get any more direct than that. Of course I have bought the bog standard CD that the guy's put out. There is no comparison. The conversion from 24-96 to 16-48 is a big step down to me at least. I can do this myself on my own computer, as well as compare files done at the studio and the cd rip.  These are not big artists, (one guy just records himself at home), but you really have the evidence in front of you. Also I've heard these guys live in numerous venues, including the room where I have my hifi.

When Joe Satriani was in town a few years back, I sprung an extra $100 for the "meet 'n greet". I mentioned to him that I was hoping he would issue his albums on Hi res. He was very enthusiastic, and stated that he had never heard anything closer to the desk than Hi res. And recently his music has been released on Hi res. Definitely a step up.

steve95775 posted:

... Many modern albums come out simultaneously on both, it's not hard to get a copy of both and compare. ...

Really? When I buy a stack of music each month, I always look for hi-res downloads first and then buy the CD if a decent hi res album is not available. Sometimes I don't know why I bother. I think the ratio of music I am looking for that is available for hi-res download is like 1% of my purchases. I literally find about 2 albums per year that I am searching for on HD.

The library of hi res content on reputable sites is hugely skewed to a certain type of listener in my view. Streaming is my only source by my CD collection just continues to grow at a fair pace. 

I've also documented in detail on the forum years ago that when I started streaming, I found a larger discrepancy in sound quality between the same disc ripped different ways (comparing a WAV produced by Windows Media Player vs. a WAV created by EAC), than between a bit perfect 16/44.1 rip and an HD download at 24/192. While the HD was better than the bit perfect rip done in secure mode it was not as much better as that same rip compared to a rip done in burst mode.

Hey Feeling Zen,

I didn't mean to suggest that people buy all albums in both formats. I was suggesting why not buy a few and compare. Similarly, you can go to the Linn store and buy individual tracks, so again, why not grab a couple of well recorded examples and do some comparison. Think about things, draw some conclusions and proceed from there. 

Having only recently installed db Poweramp CD ripper, and am now laboriously re-ripping my CD's in secure mode. When I first got going with ripping I used iTunes. Sigh. The comment you make regarding ripping is interesting, I'll have to re-visit my beliefs, as I have settled on flac uncompressed. So if WAV is the way then..... another sigh. One thing I have learnt is that nuances in the whole music reproduction chain can have audible consequences and orthodoxy needs to be constantly reassessed.

I am getting closer to upgrading my system, and I'm sure that once I make a move up the ladder, some of my thoughts regarding file formats might shift. What really set me off on streaming was a Naim roadshow a few years back when they demoéd the Statement using an NDS. It brought home to me that streaming could get you to the point where you forgot about process and just lost yourself in music. I get there often with my current set up but having always viewed it as a starter system to get me back in the groove, I am well aware that my horizon needs to be expanded again. An NDX2 is calling. Or maybe a Hugo or a Linn. The thrill of the hunt.

Like you, I look for hi res first, and then with the cd if it's not available. I am also having fun with back catalogue, and these days with cd so cheap, sometimes just I just grab a whole stack and work through them to get a taste of what it's all about before committing big dollars to hi res downloads. This is particularly true for classical, as I am still rebuilding my library from the old days when I had several thousand classical and opera LP's. Not only do you consider sonic quality, the interpretation/performance comes to the fore, (and generally is more important most times). So I grab say three or four issues/interpretations of a piece, get a feel and then seek out a better copy. Of course there is always Tidal to go to for this sort of thing as well. I do a lot of driving, so a cd that pops into the dash is pretty simple, (although I can stream in my car from usb). 

As for Hi res choices, my experience is different to yours. Jazz and classical offer pretty rich pickings for me, and HD Tracks offers many great back catalogue titles. I have been building my NAS resource for over seven years now, and whilst it's true that in certain areas the pickings are getting sparse, in other areas there's always much more music than I can listen to anyway so I don't feel unfulfilled.

IIRC if you buy an album in hi-res from Qobuz you can also download it in a variety of other formats (e.g. red book, MP3), which might be useful for comparison purposes. Or you could use something like dBpoweramp to convert a hi-res file to red book and see if you can hear a difference. The bonus with that method is that you can be sure you’re comparing files from the same mastering.