Naim NDS and SACD

Since you have an NDS I will assume you are already comfortable with streaming and the use of a NAS.  For best results with SACDs in the Naim world you would be best served by ripping the disc ISOs using a Sony PS3 or one of the many Oppo or Oppo-derived players that can be used for this purpose (instructions are only a Google search away...), encoding the resulting files as DSF and playback natively on the NDS. 

I’ve done this with great success with 800+ SACDs. 

William101 posted:

 

Hello,
in addition to thousands of vinyl and cd I also own several SACD (I'm a collector).

I would like to be able to take advantage of an SACD Player and use my Naim NDS as DAC (with its own reference DAC) that
 has the digital S / PDIF coaxial (BNC), coaxial (RCA phono) and optical (Tos link) digital inputs.

...

 

Sure, you should be able to feed BNC and RCA inputs with up to 24bit/192kHz data streams. Toslink inputs might be limited to 96kHz. Just check the NDS specifications, these figures hold for the Naim DAC but I would be surprised if they were different for the NDS.

You will have to make sure that whatever you connect to the NDS provides high resolution data streams, of course. For intance, the Oppo 203 does only deliver high resolution data to the HDMI interface, not to the S/PDIF interface, if I am not mistaken. I do not know about the Marantz.

You can by the way feed high resolution streams from Tidal, Qobuz, Roon (and, of course, LAN UPnP servers) into the NDS' S/PDIF inputs by using an Allo DigiOne (or DigiOne Signature, see  https://forums.naimaudio.com/t...lo-digione-signature).

So the only way to make the Naim NDS play the high definition stream of a SACD is to extract the ISO and put it on a NAS?

Which is the best product to extract the ISO of the SACD?

Is there no SACD player that can give the high-definition signal on the digital coaxial output (BNC)? Oppo 205 have coaxial output 192kHz ?

There is such a thing as an HDMI to SPDIF converter, totally outside my experience, but I wonder if it would work if you don’t want to rip them?

The traditional workaround was to get a Sony PS3 Playstation on a specific firmware version, which just happened to be able to rip SACDs, but used ones are hard to come by. Meybe an Oppo would be a better bet.

Actually HDMI to SPDIF converters, or often called HDMI SPDIF pass thru adapters are common and readily avaiable ... cost a few pounds.. however remember SACD is delta sigma encoding (DSD) and the audio on the SPDIF will almost certainly be lossy converted to PCM... I don’t think DSD encoding is part of the HDMI spec.. but could be corrected here. So if I am right this would not be an optimal way of ripping... more like real time one time lossy conversion digital recording 

It seems that the Cambridge CXUHD can give HDMI output with DSD flow by reading a SACD.

At this point you would connect the Cambridge CXU's HDMI output to an HDMI -> Coaxial converter and then to the Naim NDS.

But I do not know if the HDMI -> Coaxial converter can still output the DSD stream or convert it to PCM.

I would like to use a CXUHD to read SACD discs and connect it to my NAIM NDS (Naim network reader with reference DAC).

The SACD signal (DSD) can not be reproduced by any SACD player (or universal player) on the market on the coaxial digital outputs for copyright issues (which should however expire in 2019 if I remember correctly).

So I understand that I can use only the Cambridge Audio CXUHD's HDMI output to get DSD out, ok.

But what can I then use to accurately and audiophile convert the HDMI output (DSD) of Cambridge Audio CXUHD into a coaxial DSD for my Naim NDS input?

In fact the Naim NDS does not have HDMI audio inputs.

William101 posted:

It seems that the Cambridge CXUHD can give HDMI output with DSD flow by reading a SACD.

At this point you would connect the Cambridge CXU's HDMI output to an HDMI -> Coaxial converter and then to the Naim NDS.

But I do not know if the HDMI -> Coaxial converter can still output the DSD stream or convert it to PCM.

To convert DSD to PCM requires some computer processing, so unlikely to be in a converter, it would require a reasonably powerful laptop or similar.

The Cambridge can also provide high-definition SACD streaming PCM over HDMI output.

I can choose PCM (high definition) or DSD on Cambridge Audio CXUHD HDMI output.

If I choose PCM I should lose a lot of audio quality?

Oppo UPD-203 User Manual, page 78:

Coaxial/Optical Audio: up to 2ch/192kHz PCM, Dolby Digital, DTS.
HDMI Audio: up to 7.1ch/192kHz PCM, up to 5.1ch DSD, Bitstream.

Oppo UPD-203 User Manual, page 16:

Due to copyright restrictions, SACD audio cannot be sent through the coaxial or optical digital audio output. To listen to SACDs, please use the HDMI or analog audio connections.

The 203 has two HDMI outputs: one for video+audio and an "Audio Only" one. The manual makes clear that the HDMI video+audio output has to be connected to an HDMI 2.0 and HDCP 2.2 compliant device. However, the manual does not specify which standards have to be fulfilled by devices connected to the Audio Only HDMI output, as far as I can see.

It all depends on the conversion process. If done very well using reasonably powerful/suitable hardware and accurate software processing the loss will be minimal... but will be there.

The point is to know what kind of audio signal I have on the digital coaxial output when a SACD is played (from an Oppo or Cambridge audio).

The DSD signal (the SACD digital signal) can not be output due to copyright reasons.

Then the PCM signal is output. But is it a PCM with quality comparable to DSD?

If the Oppo (or Cambridge) already gives a PCM signal of comparable quality to the DSD on the coaxial output then it makes no sense to use the HDMI output (of the Oppo or Cambridge) and then convert the HDMI to coax.

If you're playing a dual layer SACD then the digital output on s/pdif is most likely from the 16bit 44.1kHz CD layer.

I will go to play SACD Hybrid or not hybrid on a SACD player (Cambridge Audio CXUHD or Oppo) and I will take the coaxial output BNC S/pdif.

If the output that produces the SACD reader at the output (coaxial bnc) is 16bit 44.1hHz then it is obviously not worth it.

The sound is absolutely better with a DSD or PCM 192 digital stream than normal 6bit 44.1hHz.

William101 posted:

The point is to know what kind of audio signal I have on the digital coaxial output when a SACD is played (from an Oppo or Cambridge audio).

From the Oppo you get either no signal or a downsampled 16 or 24 bits, 44.1 kHz signal on the digital coax output depending on whether "SACD Priority" is set to default or to "CD Mode", see page 81 Section "Troubleshooting" of UDP-203_USER_MANUAL_ENGLISH_V1.0.pdf.

On the HDMI output you get high resolution PCM or DSD depending on whether "SACD Output" is set to "PCM" or to "DSD". If it is set to "Auto" (this is the default), the 203 will check with the device connected to the HDMI output to
automatically determine which audio format (DSD or PCM) to use for SACD playback, see page 57 of themanual mentioned above.

The bottom line is that the digital coax output of the 203 supports up to 2ch/192kHz PCM, Dolby Digital, DTS. But for copyright reasons this output is limited to 44.1 kHZ (with 16 or 24 bits) for SACD replay.

A solution could be Oppo 203 + Vanity203HD but the cost seems exaggerated only to have a quality digital output.

William101 posted:

A solution could be Oppo 203 + Vanity203HD but the cost seems exaggerated only to have a quality digital output.

Or you could just rip the discs; which is much easier, less costly and you have a backup of the DSD information for when they no longer make SACD players (with Oppo abandoning the business this is only a matter of time).  Otherwise you may be left with a large collection of SACDs with nothing to play them on.

To be clear, the only way an SACD stream can be decoded is through an AV amp or receiver (via HDMI), or, inside the SACD player itself, feeding the output via analogue to the amplifier.  I have to do this with my Cambridge 650BD.  The lack of flexibility in how we manage DSD streams from the disc itself is part of the technical standard that was intended to prevent copying. 

In addition to the PS3 (which I would like to avoid), what is the best way to rip the SACDs?

William101 posted:

In addition to the PS3 (which I would like to avoid), what is the best way to rip the SACDs?

Many Oppo/Cambridge/Pioneer multi disc players can be configured to easily enable ripping of the ISO and then there are multiple programs that can be used to convert the ISO to individual DSF files, which can be easily played-back by an NDS. Once setup it is nearly as easy as ripping a CD.  Again, Google is your friend.