Updated 272

I know the problem only too well, with many years of 82, 252 and 552 ownership. It’s a pain in the neck. It was fine back in the days of vinyl via inbuilt cards, where 11 o’clock or more was often used. But with CDs it’s really not good. The 272, with its lovely volume control increasing smoothly from 0 to 100, is delightful to use in comparison. 

This is a thread about the new 272 after all, rather than the idiosyncrasies of the unnecessary analogue preamps. Ditch the lot! Streaming preamps is where it’s at. ????

As an annoyed user of the 272, I am now using ndac into 272 as presmp only. If there is an update I rather hope its Dac will at least match quality of nDac as it's the weakest link...... Roon ready would be important for many......

I think streaming PreAmp is an important component for active speakers. It really requires only a pair of speakers and nothing else.

As for the need to be separated, sometimes I am not sure the box count vs SQ argument.

McIntosh, Gryphon, to name a few, all have some sort of streaming PreAmp or Dad amp in their higher end products. Why would it be such a high compromise for Naim to do the same?

Why are you an annoyed user?

hungryhalibut posted:

Why are you an annoyed user?

Annoyed because I had to find more boxes to replace the 272 function, and wasting about 1/2 to 2/3 the value of it......

lhau posted:

As for the need to be separated, sometimes I am not sure the box count vs SQ argument.

McIntosh, Gryphon, to name a few, all have some sort of streaming PreAmp or Dad amp in their higher end products. Why would it be such a high compromise for Naim to do the same?

That is a perfectly valid viewpoint and I respect that.

But what's stopping you from buying McIntosh or Gryphon? What I am hearing is, you want the Naim logo but don't want Naim to be Naim.

If they fully go down the route you suggest, they will not sound like Naim. They might sound better, as good or worse. But for sure they won't sound like Naim.

If you want something higher end than the 272 in a single box, I'd seriously come to the conclusion that Naim isn't for you.

Of course, they might agree with you change their whole lineup in the next 10 years around streaming pres and active speakers. But a lot of current customers would jump ship. Linn did exactly that and I dropped them because of it. Pivoting to intentionalky alienate an older customer base in favour of a different more lucrative one is a valid strategic move. I've worked at several companies that did it. I hope Naim don't do this but there will always be hifi out there to please, even if not Naim.

lhau posted:

hungryhalibut posted:

Why are you an annoyed user?

Annoyed because I had to find more boxes to replace the 272 function, and wasting about 1/2 to 2/3 the value of it......

You didn’t have to. You simply chose to. So you have annoyed yourself. 

lhau posted:

hungryhalibut posted:

Why are you an annoyed user?

Annoyed because I had to find more boxes to replace the 272 function, and wasting about 1/2 to 2/3 the value of it......

Have you tried running it powered by a 555DR?

That makes an enormous improvement to the sound quality available from the 272.

It's also a better preamp than a 202 + Hicap (£3648 vs £3699), so actually you're just "wasting" £51 to get the better volume control!
(With a free streamer & DAC that you choose not to use, and an increase in SQ on the side!)

Even when just used as a preamp, used 'bare' the 272 fits in nicely between the 202 and 282.

lhau posted:

As an annoyed user of the 272, I am now using ndac into 272 as presmp only. If there is an update I rather hope its Dac will at least match quality of nDac as it's the weakest link...... Roon ready would be important for many......

I think streaming PreAmp is an important component for active speakers. It really requires only a pair of speakers and nothing else.

As for the need to be separated, sometimes I am not sure the box count vs SQ argument.

McIntosh, Gryphon, to name a few, all have some sort of streaming PreAmp or Dad amp in their higher end products. Why would it be such a high compromise for Naim to do the same?

 

It has always been a fundamental part of Naim’s designs to provide isolation by putting different components in separate boxes to optimise sound quality. The all in one devices such as the Unitis and 172/272 compromise this to cater for thise who want smaller systems. If you want to climb the upgrade ladder, there’s no getting away from the fact that you’re going to need more boxes, as you seem to have discovered. If that annoys you, perhaps non-Naim alternatives  would suit you better. 

lhau posted:

hungryhalibut posted:

Why are you an annoyed user?

Annoyed because I had to find more boxes to replace the 272 function, and wasting about 1/2 to 2/3 the value of it......

So buy a Muso and there won't be any more boxes to "find" that will annoy you.

I know the feeling -- those fancy Pirelli tyres they make for my car annoy me too. 

Well, seems this is a sore spot to discuss about separated boxes. Despite I have essentially went the separate route, people still understand me as being running muso integrated boxes. 

It's just not hitting a sweet spot for me at the moment in every way isn't it?

I could have swapped the 272 with another PreAmp, it's just that all the alternatives are older than 272, it's not easy to chart the next move from here.

feeling_zen posted:

lhau posted:

As for the need to be separated, sometimes I am not sure the box count vs SQ argument.

McIntosh, Gryphon, to name a few, all have some sort of streaming PreAmp or Dad amp in their higher end products. Why would it be such a high compromise for Naim to do the same?

That is a perfectly valid viewpoint and I respect that.

But what's stopping you from buying McIntosh or Gryphon? What I am hearing is, you want the Naim logo but don't want Naim to be Naim.

If they fully go down the route you suggest, they will not sound like Naim. They might sound better, as good or worse. But for sure they won't sound like Naim.

If you want something higher end than the 272 in a single box, I'd seriously come to the conclusion that Naim isn't for you.

Of course, they might agree with you change their whole lineup in the next 10 years around streaming pres and active speakers. But a lot of current customers would jump ship. Linn did exactly that and I dropped them because of it. Pivoting to intentionalky alienate an older customer base in favour of a different more lucrative one is a valid strategic move. I've worked at several companies that did it. I hope Naim don't do this but there will always be hifi out there to please, even if not Naim.

I do not fully comprehend.

From Uniti, Uniti Atom to Uniti Nova, 172 and 272. They are all Naim aren't they? Nait and Supernait, they are all integrated in some sort, some even without the traditional PS upgrade. They are all Naim aren't they?  It didn't stop them from being Naim with higher level of integration? 

To the contrary of your conckusion, I can care less if it is Onkyo , Schiit, dcs or Chord if it sounds good to me.

The question I ponder was if it's really that unachievable that's all.

Huge posted:

lhau posted:

hungryhalibut posted:

Why are you an annoyed user?

Annoyed because I had to find more boxes to replace the 272 function, and wasting about 1/2 to 2/3 the value of it......

Have you tried running it powered by a 555DR?

That makes an enormous improvement to the sound quality available from the 272.

It's also a better preamp than a 202 + Hicap (£3648 vs £3699), so actually you're just "wasting" £51 to get the better volume control!
(With a free streamer & DAC that you choose not to use, and an increase in SQ on the side!)

Even when just used as a preamp, used 'bare' the 272 fits in nicely between the 202 and 282.

So I guess you have semi agree with me that if there is a 272-2, upgrading the Streaming and DAC would be good?

lhau posted:

So I guess you have semi agree with me that if there is a 272-2, upgrading the Streaming and DAC would be good?

If there is a 272-2, then updating to the new streaming platform is a given.

In terms of the rest, then the issue is that with Naim's approach to sonic presentation from their products, the integration of so much into one box (particularly the integration of complex high-quality analogue preamp circuitry into a box that also contains a large amount of digital circuitry) limits their ability to optimise the sound in the way that they want.  Also note that other manufacturers with different target sonic presentations my well have an easier time optimising their products than do Naim with their target sonic presentation.  So for a 272-2 there would have to be a very substantial amount of work undertaken to reduce the SQ limits imposed by that level of integration and still remain within Naim's target style of sonic presentation.

A 372 with no internal power supply (hence releasing internal space to ease the integration issues) may be more likely.

lhau posted:

Well, seems this is a sore spot to discuss about separated boxes. Despite I have essentially went the separate route, people still understand me as being running muso integrated boxes. 

It's just not hitting a sweet spot for me at the moment in every way isn't it?

I could have swapped the 272 with another PreAmp, it's just that all the alternatives are older than 272, it's not easy to chart the next move from here.

You picked an odd route.  You've taken a product specifically designed to marry a preamp and a digital streaming front end (streamer and dac modules), and divorced them.  And while the Naim Dac is very good, it's not like you upgraded the dac module of your 272 with something truly state-of-the-art.  AND, the Naim Dac really shines with a higher-end Naim external power supply, which is antithetical to your 'adding more boxes annoys me' ethos anyway.  So . . . yeah . . . you picked an odd route to "upgrade" - by focusing on maintaining the pre-amp and streamer player aspects of the 272, and then realized that your path is not satisfying.

If a "372" were to be announced, you'd sell off the Naim Dac anyway I presume?

I think that you need to decide to either (a) be happy with a low box count solution or (b) go to a higher box count solution.  Sounds obvious, I know.

Bart posted:

lhau posted:

Well, seems this is a sore spot to discuss about separated boxes. Despite I have essentially went the separate route, people still understand me as being running muso integrated boxes. 

It's just not hitting a sweet spot for me at the moment in every way isn't it?

I could have swapped the 272 with another PreAmp, it's just that all the alternatives are older than 272, it's not easy to chart the next move from here.

You picked an odd route.  You've taken a product specifically designed to marry a preamp and a digital streaming front end (streamer and dac modules), and divorced them.  And while the Naim Dac is very good, it's not like you upgraded the dac module of your 272 with something truly state-of-the-art.  AND, the Naim Dac really shines with a higher-end Naim external power supply, which is antithetical to your 'adding more boxes annoys me' ethos anyway.  So . . . yeah . . . you picked an odd route to "upgrade" - by focusing on maintaining the pre-amp and streamer player aspects of the 272, and then realized that your path is not satisfying.

If a "372" were to be announced, you'd sell off the Naim Dac anyway I presume?

I think that you need to decide to either (a) be happy with a low box count solution or (b) go to a higher box count solution.  Sounds obvious, I know.

I am in an oddity of the Naim path.

Had 272 been a great Dac streamer I would have just added a PreAmp.

Had NDX been better than nDac I would have just added the NDX.

But no, ndac with its 1704K sound better then NDX, so ndac it was.

Another oddity in the Naim line is the amount of control its product can be offered via apps and Roon.

When it's multiple boxes can be smoothly controlled by apps and Roon like Atom can, it would have been perfect.

Talked to Paul Bennett on Friday (he was doing the ndx2 demo in Oslo). When I asked about an upgraded 272 he just smiled, and told me that this was the most asked question when doing the ndx2 demo. I think Naim are aware of people wanting an upgraded version, but of course he could not comment...

lhau posted:

Bart posted:

lhau posted:

Well, seems this is a sore spot to discuss about separated boxes. Despite I have essentially went the separate route, people still understand me as being running muso integrated boxes. 

It's just not hitting a sweet spot for me at the moment in every way isn't it?

I could have swapped the 272 with another PreAmp, it's just that all the alternatives are older than 272, it's not easy to chart the next move from here.

You picked an odd route.  You've taken a product specifically designed to marry a preamp and a digital streaming front end (streamer and dac modules), and divorced them.  And while the Naim Dac is very good, it's not like you upgraded the dac module of your 272 with something truly state-of-the-art.  AND, the Naim Dac really shines with a higher-end Naim external power supply, which is antithetical to your 'adding more boxes annoys me' ethos anyway.  So . . . yeah . . . you picked an odd route to "upgrade" - by focusing on maintaining the pre-amp and streamer player aspects of the 272, and then realized that your path is not satisfying.

If a "372" were to be announced, you'd sell off the Naim Dac anyway I presume?

I think that you need to decide to either (a) be happy with a low box count solution or (b) go to a higher box count solution.  Sounds obvious, I know.

I am in an oddity of the Naim path.

Had 272 been a great Dac streamer I would have just added a PreAmp.

 

Had NDX been better than nDac I would have just added the NDX.

 

But no, ndac with its 1704K sound better then NDX, so ndac it was.

Another oddity in the Naim line is the amount of control its product can be offered via apps and Roon.

 

When it's multiple boxes can be smoothly controlled by apps and Roon like Atom can, it would have been perfect.

The good news is that the newest boxes are "Roon Ready."  I use Roon on my non-Roon-Ready UnitiQute2 with a little Allo DigiOne box. I've written about it here - super simple to use.  If you want to add Roon to your 272, you can further divorce what it's doing and use the DigiOne in place of it's internal streamer player module. The Naim app will be redundant then.

lhau posted:

feeling_zen posted:

lhau posted:

As for the need to be separated, sometimes I am not sure the box count vs SQ argument.

McIntosh, Gryphon, to name a few, all have some sort of streaming PreAmp or Dad amp in their higher end products. Why would it be such a high compromise for Naim to do the same?

That is a perfectly valid viewpoint and I respect that.

But what's stopping you from buying McIntosh or Gryphon? What I am hearing is, you want the Naim logo but don't want Naim to be Naim.

If they fully go down the route you suggest, they will not sound like Naim. They might sound better, as good or worse. But for sure they won't sound like Naim.

If you want something higher end than the 272 in a single box, I'd seriously come to the conclusion that Naim isn't for you.

Of course, they might agree with you change their whole lineup in the next 10 years around streaming pres and active speakers. But a lot of current customers would jump ship. Linn did exactly that and I dropped them because of it. Pivoting to intentionalky alienate an older customer base in favour of a different more lucrative one is a valid strategic move. I've worked at several companies that did it. I hope Naim don't do this but there will always be hifi out there to please, even if not Naim.

I do not fully comprehend.

From Uniti, Uniti Atom to Uniti Nova, 172 and 272. They are all Naim aren't they? Nait and Supernait, they are all integrated in some sort, some even without the traditional PS upgrade. They are all Naim aren't they?  It didn't stop them from being Naim with higher level of integration? 

To the contrary of your conckusion, I can care less if it is Onkyo , Schiit, dcs or Chord if it sounds good to me.

The question I ponder was if it's really that unachievable that's all.

The Uniti products and the 272 and everything below it are indeed combined solutions. But the problems inherent in isolating components from each other is not linear. The better things get, the more sensitive they also get as a natural consequence of their more faithful reproduction of the original signal. The fact that Naim managed this compromise up to, and including, the 272, in no way indicates that they feel they can do so at a level beyond the 272. Or at least, in a way that has similar cost performance to simpler multi-box set ups.

Naim have a design philosophy and other manufacturers have theirs. Not saying one is right. But Naim clearly feel that beyond the level of a 272, those single box compromises are too much and getting around them would entail taking their technology in different directions. Once that is done, they cease to be Naim as we know them. Linn used to use toroidal transformers before moving to SMPs with shielded casing. They claim it solves all the problems. Maybe it does. Maybe it doesn't. But not only do Linn and Naim sound totally different, new Linn sounds nothing like old Linn and not always always in a good way.

Hence, I will repeat myself: You indicate you want a higher end one box streaming preamp than a 272 for use with active speakers. I propose another brand is more suitable to your needs. A 272 replacement may or may not appear better than the old one. A streaming preamp at a level in the hierarchy above a 272, is much less likely. And since you already stated you care not what the brand is as long as it sounds good, I'm surprised you bothered to stay with a 272 and add an nDAC at all. I'd have tried and XPS or 555PS and if the 2 boxes was just not doing it for me gone over to another brand ages ago.

feeling_zen posted:

lhau posted:

feeling_zen posted:

lhau posted:

As for the need to be separated, sometimes I am not sure the box count vs SQ argument.

McIntosh, Gryphon, to name a few, all have some sort of streaming PreAmp or Dad amp in their higher end products. Why would it be such a high compromise for Naim to do the same?

That is a perfectly valid viewpoint and I respect that.

But what's stopping you from buying McIntosh or Gryphon? What I am hearing is, you want the Naim logo but don't want Naim to be Naim.

If they fully go down the route you suggest, they will not sound like Naim. They might sound better, as good or worse. But for sure they won't sound like Naim.

If you want something higher end than the 272 in a single box, I'd seriously come to the conclusion that Naim isn't for you.

Of course, they might agree with you change their whole lineup in the next 10 years around streaming pres and active speakers. But a lot of current customers would jump ship. Linn did exactly that and I dropped them because of it. Pivoting to intentionalky alienate an older customer base in favour of a different more lucrative one is a valid strategic move. I've worked at several companies that did it. I hope Naim don't do this but there will always be hifi out there to please, even if not Naim.

I do not fully comprehend.

From Uniti, Uniti Atom to Uniti Nova, 172 and 272. They are all Naim aren't they? Nait and Supernait, they are all integrated in some sort, some even without the traditional PS upgrade. They are all Naim aren't they?  It didn't stop them from being Naim with higher level of integration? 

To the contrary of your conckusion, I can care less if it is Onkyo , Schiit, dcs or Chord if it sounds good to me.

The question I ponder was if it's really that unachievable that's all.

The Uniti products and the 272 and everything below it are indeed combined solutions. But the problems inherent in isolating components from each other is not linear. The better things get, the more sensitive they also get as a natural consequence of their more faithful reproduction of the original signal. The fact that Naim managed this compromise up to, and including, the 272, in no way indicates that they feel they can do so at a level beyond the 272. Or at least, in a way that has similar cost performance to simpler multi-box set ups.

Naim have a design philosophy and other manufacturers have theirs. Not saying one is right. But Naim clearly feel that beyond the level of a 272, those single box compromises are too much and getting around them would entail taking their technology in different directions. Once that is done, they cease to be Naim as we know them. Linn used to use toroidal transformers before moving to SMPs with shielded casing. They claim it solves all the problems. Maybe it does. Maybe it doesn't. But not only do Linn and Naim sound totally different, new Linn sounds nothing like old Linn and not always always in a good way.

Hence, I will repeat myself: You indicate you want a higher end one box streaming preamp than a 272 for use with active speakers. I propose another brand is more suitable to your needs. A 272 replacement may or may not appear better than the old one. A streaming preamp at a level in the hierarchy above a 272, is much less likely. And since you already stated you care not what the brand is as long as it sounds good, I'm surprised you bothered to stay with a 272 and add an nDAC at all. I'd have tried and XPS or 555PS and if the 2 boxes was just not doing it for me gone over to another brand ages ago.

Well, I have already got an XPS. The box count is more or less the upper limit I would like.

Let's do a box count, statement PreAmp 2 boxes, statement Amp, 3 boxes, ND555 3 boxes, a streamer into ND555 as I heard it sounds better as pure Dac, perhaps 2 boxes. Before adding headphone amp and vinyl, it is a total of 10 boxes. You are right, if they cant come up with something in the mid-tier, when I move from this mid-fi rig to higher fi, I am most likely going to have to find another path with fewer boxes......

As a 272 owner,I can confirm that it is a fabulous front end to my active Dynaudio XD 600’s.The XD’s take the digital out of the 272 directly,they have onboard DAC/amp combos on each driver...four 150 watt amps per speaker to be exact.I also use the 272 with an XPSDR/250DR into Focal Sopra 1’s,and it also sounds real good to my ears,maybe your Proac speakers are holding things back a little.I am also considering adding a chord Mscaler/DAC to my 272 as an upgrade,again using its digital out,so essentially making it an NDX.I have another preamp I can use in this case,and considering the 272 would be just a transport,why not keep it rather than upgrading to an NDX2 or something similar at much more cost.

I think the 272 may have been designed more for the music enthusiast who wants want a decent musical presentation. If you are looking for the ultimate I dont see Naim ever stop making more advanced lots-of-boxes stuff.  

I went from a bigger 252-based system to a nice 4-box 272-based one. With the LP12 on Mana next to it - it is hardly invisible but still worked out o.k. I dont miss the old system even though it did sound a bit better. If they release a 272-2 I will consider it, but I’m very happy with the current 272. 

If, as speculated on here, that sales of 272 are falling and that a replacement/upgrade for the 272 is quite away from materialising. Then, why do Naim not issue a statement to state this. I know that Naim do not usually issue any kind of statement till release of new product. However, I feel that seeing this is one of the most asked questions, then a more pragmatic view may be needed. For instance, if the first two points are true, then to issue a statement to confirm no replacement/upgrade due for at least a period of time, would most likely increase sales of the current 272. If I knew it was at least two years away, I would purchase a current 272 tomorrow.

Information trickled out through various sources about the Uniti range approx 12 months before launch. Once that launch was complete we started to hear rumours about the ND555 and other streamers. I do not expect to hear anything new until the current streamer range is fully launched. So perhaps around Xmas or New year a few rumours on the next type of product that is in its final design stages will start appearing?

lhau posted:

Well, I have already got an XPS. The box count is more or less the upper limit I would like.

Let's do a box count, statement PreAmp 2 boxes, statement Amp, 3 boxes, ND555 3 boxes, a streamer into ND555 as I heard it sounds better as pure Dac, perhaps 2 boxes. Before adding headphone amp and vinyl, it is a total of 10 boxes. You are right, if they cant come up with something in the mid-tier, when I move from this mid-fi rig to higher fi, I am most likely going to have to find another path with fewer boxes......

Now you're being silly.

Anyway Statement preamp is one box not two and the Statement power amp is two boxes not three. And you've been misinformed about using the ND555 as a DAC with an external streamer.