nDAC won’t read HiRez FLACS

TomSer posted:

Adam Zielinski posted:

I supsect that the USB stick the OP is using does not have fast enough data trasfer speed to handle the files in question.

I wish it was the case. Unfortunately it's not 
It's seems to be sample rate related.
As you can read above, 352 kHz obtained from a DSD64 conversion is ok.
But genuine 24bits / 352,8 kHz PCM isn't.

DSD64 is roughly equivalent to a Redbook CD at 44.1 kHZ/16 bit.

Please check the file-sizes for DSD64 vs PCM 24/352kHz.

Adam Zielinski posted:

Please check the file-sizes for DSD64 vs PCM 24/352kHz.

You're right.
I'll try with a brand new USB stick. I'll format it in FAT32 first as exFAT isn't supported.

According to 2L website a 4:55 min FLAC stereo file will have the following sizes:

365 kHz / 24 bit = 410 MB

DSD64 = 210 MB

The above should give you a rough guide as to what data transfer speed a USB stick must support, in order to play an ultra-high resolution file.

Just a side note - nDAC will support 32 bit / over 700 kHZ...

Adam Zielinski posted:

According to 2L website a 4:55 min FLAC stereo file will have the following sizes:

365 kHz / 24 bit = 410 MB

DSD64 = 210 MB

The above should give you a rough guide as to what data transfer speed a USB stick must support, in order to play an ultra-high resolution file.

The sample rate I was referring to is 352,8 kHz.
2L Records doesn't sell PCM 365 kHz / 24 bit files.

They sell 24bits / 352,8 kHz PCM.  And so does HDTraks, Native DSD (they refer it as DXD)

Regarding the FLAC files size, the sample they offer is 321 Mo (336 902 264 octets) for 5 minutes and 07 seconds.
Not that big...

I have many other 24bits / 352,8 kHz PCM files that are around 70 Mo to100 Mo.

Size isn't a problem here, nor is the USB stick.

As said previously, the problem seems to be the sample rate.

Give it a try!

The sample from 2L : 
http://www.lindberg.no/hires/t...1_FLAC_352k_24b.flac

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

TomSer posted:

I have very poor knowledge in electro-acoustics. Are 352,8kHz or 384kHz frequencies hihg enough to cause intermodulation issues? 

Absolutely.. intermodulation distortion occurs with non linearities in the analogue electronics.. However the PCM1704k is band limited to 20kHz.. so unlikely to be an issue with that device... however the digital noise in the higher frequencies when processed might cause issues albeit very subtle. Interesting the specification of the PCM1704K stated support of sample rates is of 16kHz  to 96kHz ... with an overall max bit clock rate of 25MHz.. which means the max data rate with 32 bit sample frames is 768kHz .. but it’s not clear to me from the data sheet how well the DAC resolves these higher frequencies within these higher data rates and also what the effect is on noise... it seems to be more for oversampling rather than sample data encoding.

My files on the ND555 aren’t suffering digital noise, they just play for a couple of seconds and then stop for a fraction and then again continue for a couple of seconds. My files are of course converted to Wav on the fly, but that doesn’t make the difference, so I don’t get it, why it shouldn’t play as specified ....

Adam Zielinski posted:

According to 2L website a 4:55 min FLAC stereo file will have the following sizes:

365 kHz / 24 bit = 410 MB

DSD64 = 210 MB

The above should give you a rough guide as to what data transfer speed a USB stick must support, in order to play an ultra-high resolution file.

The data is coming from my Melco and is going through a high quality Vodka Cable.....

TomSer posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted

Absolutely.. intermodulation distortion occurs with non linearities in the analogue electronics.. However the PCM1704k is band limited to 20kHz.. so unlikely to be an issue with that device... however the digital noise in the higher frequencies when processed might cause issues albeit very subtle. Interesting the specification of the PCM1704K stated support of sample rates is of 16kHz  to 96kHz ... with an overall max bit clock rate of 25MHz.. which means the max data rate with 32 bit sample frames is 768kHz .. but it’s not clear to me from the data sheet how well the DAC resolves these higher frequencies within these higher data rates and also what the effect is on noise... it seems to be more for oversampling rather than sample data encoding.

Thank you for your explanation!

I rapidly read the nDAC "white paper" but didn't find any useful info why nDAC can't cope with 352,8kHz rates. Maybe because 352,8kHz isn't a multiple of 16...  Neither is 44,1kHz by the way. Or maybe the oversampling process can't deal withe such a frequency. Strange...

And it is in fact unclear what sample rates are actually supported by the PCM1704K chip.

Not so sure I'll order a ND555 anymore.

The question is now what the problem might be, hope Naim support will answer, they should now have enough data to support the research and determine why it doesn’t work....

I've emailed someone at Naim to see whether they can look into it.

Richard Dane posted:

I've emailed someone at Naim to see whether they can look into it.

Thanks Richard. I just am playing the unchanged files on my Sony NW-WM1Z and it plays flawless even just from card (not from memory). So the only additional factor is the on the fly decoding in wav which happens on my Melco. File sampling is 24/352.8, something the ND555 should be able to decode.

Bert Schurink posted:

Richard Dane posted:

I've emailed someone at Naim to see whether they can look into it.

Thanks Richard. I just am playing the unchanged files on my Sony NW-WM1Z and it plays flawless even just from card (not from memory). So the only additional factor is the on the fly decoding in wav which happens on my Melco. File sampling is 24/352.8, something the ND555 should be able to decode.

Have you tried disabling the transcoding. Just wondering if high processing load in the Melco is causing the issue rather than the ND555 ?

Adam Zielinski posted:

According to 2L website a 4:55 min FLAC stereo file will have the following sizes:

365 kHz / 24 bit = 410 MB

DSD64 = 210 MB

The above should give you a rough guide as to what data transfer speed a USB stick must support, in order to play an ultra-high resolution file.

My 24/352 file (converted from DSD64)  is 330MB.  As it is FLAC the files size will vary and this particualy track is folky guitar/vocal.

james n posted:

Bert Schurink posted:

Richard Dane posted:

I've emailed someone at Naim to see whether they can look into it.

Thanks Richard. I just am playing the unchanged files on my Sony NW-WM1Z and it plays flawless even just from card (not from memory). So the only additional factor is the on the fly decoding in wav which happens on my Melco. File sampling is 24/352.8, something the ND555 should be able to decode.

Have you tried disabling the transcoding. Just wondering if high processing load in the Melco is causing the issue rather than the ND555 ?

No haven't done that - and to be honest would also not know how I get into the settings of the server to change it. I will try with a stick to see if it works with the stick and if it does, then I could exclude it. But given the comments of the others above I assume it can't be an issue with my Melco, while I will do the due dillegence.

Richard Dane posted:

I've emailed someone at Naim to see whether they can look into it.

Thank you Richard!

Here is an overview of the situation and a description of the tests I made.
I hope this can help Naim techs to investigate the problem

My nDAC won’t play 24bits / 352,8 kHz files.
ND555 probably won't either

I bought several albums on : HDTracks, 2L Records and Native DSD.

Here are the simple tests I conducted

I copied the following files on an USB stick which I know works perfectly.

01_TEST_24_bits-44.1_kHz.flac

02_TEST_24_bits-48_kHz.flac

03_TEST_24_bits-88.2_kHz.flac

04_TEST_24_bits-96_kHz.flac

05_TEST_24_bits-176.4_kHz.flac

06_TEST_24_bits-192_kHz.flac

Everything plays correctly.

I deleted all files from the USB stick.
I copied the following and last test file into the stick.
So it was the only file in the stick.

07_TEST_24_bits-352.8_kHz.flac

This last file does not play.
The system tries to load it: the dock button turns green, then turn off, then nothing.

Here are the files I played.



Richard,

Do you want me to email does files to someone at Naim?
Or you can send me an email (swissts---gmail.com) and I send you back a link to a package containing all the test files.

[@mention:13111295364991225],

I sent you an email with a link to a package containing all the test files I mentioned above.
If you could try the same kind of experiments on your ND555 it would be nice.

As I said previously, I'm somewhat disappointed and stalled the idea of ordering a ND555, unless the problem is sorted out.

Cheers,

Thomas

Hi Thomas, 

I emailed Steve Sells.  He downloaded the 24/352.8 file from Lindberg.no.  He has just confirmed that it plays fine on an Atom and on an ND555.  He hasn't found a Naim DAC yet to try but he sees no reason why it shouldn't play. He did remind me that the Naim DAC can be rather fussy about USB sticks though.  

When my internet gets a bit more stable (usually in the evening - it keeps dropping every few minutes during most days, which makes downloads impossible without a robust manager) I'll try downloading the file again myself and try on my own DAC.

Ok then I will test some other things - if it's not the ND555 - then it must be something else which is blocking the files from playing properly. Will be interested to see what. In the past I once had a problem with my NDS and then the solution was to convert the file with DBPoweramp to trhe same size, it worked as apparently in the process something was corrected.....

But again odd enough the files do play correctly on my Sony....

Hi Richard,

Thanks for relaying Steve’s answer.
It’s good news. Well, only partially as Bert’s ND555 seems to be struggling with same file.

I’m curious about the result of yours and Steve’s tests with the nDAC.

Regarding the USB stick, as explained in my previous post, I used the same USB stick for the 2 steps of the test :

- first with “low” sample rates (test succeeded nicely)
- then with 352,8 kHz (test failed).
- So the USB stick is ok.

I can send you a link to get 2 more 352,8 kHz files : from Chanel Classics and 2L Records.
Just send me an email (I can’t post the link here. Those 2 files are not sample files).

Bert Schurink posted:

Ok then I will test some other things - if it's not the ND555 - then it must be something else which is blocking the files from playing properly. Will be interested to see what. In the past I once had a problem with my NDS and then the solution was to convert the file with DBPoweramp to trhe same size, it worked as apparently in the process something was corrected.....

But again odd enough the files do play correctly on my Sony....

Hi Bert,

Not sure the DBPoweramp is the solution, more like a workaround.

I sent you an email with a link to a file from Chanel Classics. You’ll be able to test a 24 bits / 352,8 kHz encoding from different source.

This will eliminate the possibility of a 352,8 kHz encoding, lets say, a bit to Nordic ;-)

By the way, Lindberg makes marvellous recordings/masterings. The guy is a sound wizard, really!

Steve says that a 24/352.8kHz file via USB should not be a problem.  The DAC should be able to play files up to 768kHz and the ND555 half that via upnp.

TomSer posted:

Hi Richard,

Thanks for relaying Steve’s answer.
It’s good news. Well, only partially as Bert’s ND555 seems to be struggling with same file.

I’m curious about the result of yours and Steve’s tests with the nDAC.

Regarding the USB stick, as explained in my previous post, I used the same USB stick for the 2 steps of the test :

- first with “low” sample rates (test succeeded nicely)
- then with 352,8 kHz (test failed).
- So the USB stick is ok.

I can send you a link to get 2 more 352,8 kHz files : from Chanel Classics and 2L Records.
Just send me an email (I can’t post the link here. Those 2 files are not sample files).

As you point out, the problem does not depend on the specific USB stick used. I have reproduced the error (precisely as you describe: the dock button turns green, then turns off, then nothing) on my nDAC and with a USB stick that perfectly works for files up to 24bit/192kHz. Transfer speed should not be an issue even at 352,8 kHz.

Have you tried decoding the original .flac file to .wav and then replaying from the same USB stick? I cannot test this at the moment but it is conceivable that the capability of the nDAC to process files at sample rates > 192kHz has not been implemented for .flac formats.

Richard

To save you the hassle of downloading via your damp string connection.  The 2L 24bit 352 file plays as a flac and converted to wav on a NDX 2.  But not on a nDAC plugged into the front USB socket.

Richard Dane posted:

Steve says that a 24/352.8kHz file via USB should not be a problem.  The DAC should be able to play files up to 768kHz and the ND555 half that via upnp.

Does this hold for all supported formats? My nDAC certainly cannot play the incriminated .flac file. I have not tried what happens if one decodes the .flac file do .wav, though.

SteveH posted:

Richard

To save you the hassle of downloading via your damp string connection.  The 2L 24bit 352 file plays as a flac and converted to wav on a NDX 2.  But not on a nDAC plugged into the front USB socket.

Thanks Steve.  I can see though that I'm going to have to persevere and try the file myself.  I'm really curious now!  

Out of interest did you try it in the DAC's rear USB socket?

 

Out of interest did you try it in the DAC's rear USB socket?

I did, same problem as with the front socket.

Clearly, there is a problem with the nDAC.

I've converted the file to WAV with dBoweramp and it nows plays fine on my nDAC 

So it looks like the nDAC will only play FLAC up to 192.