Streaming device to complement UnitiServe and NAIM DAC

Bill_nyc posted:

I'm leaning toward the minimalist approach and would like to avoid redundancy (ie, another DAC in my streaming device).  That is why the Allo DigiOne Signature option is appealing. 

BTW, all my music is stored on a ReadyNAS.  I've seen some posts mentioning music streaming software installed in a NAS, but I don't understand how this would work.  Is this a worthwhile option?

Your ReadyNAS will be fine for storage and running a server for a UPnP streamer. My dealer uses them in preference to the Synology and QNAP models popular with forum members. Does this mean you have got rid if the Unitiserve? 

I would consider an Innuos server if you move on from the UnitiServe as it will give you all the web and local streaming functions you want, and the new models will include an SPDIF output. Just add a DAC. 

Hi, Bill.

As NBPF points out, music files and the server app that presents them to e.g. UPnP or Apple apps and devices do not need to be co-located on the same hardware.  I had a bad experience long ago when I set iTunes on my Mac Mini to default to either external USB drives or the NAS -- when the drive hosting my files was not available anytime iTunes launched, it would quietly change the file source to the local hard disk, requiring I re-point it to the external drive in the Mac UI.  There may have been a way to prevent this behavior, I do not know.  Later, when I started using Minim Server, I did try it running on the Mac and pointed at the external files; but the idea that co-location of the server app and the files was stuck in my head as a best practice; so I installed it on the Synology NAS, and left Minim Watch running on all of my macs, for easy re-indexing after ripping new music.  I am open to being corrected on this and improving my methods. 

My workflow never seems to me to be as elegant and simple as the Naim way, but I'll grant it is cheaper, and may sound the same.  I rip with XLD to my office music-workstation as AIFF with embedded cover art,  to monitor progress for any glitches.  Then I import to iTunes on the Mac to let iTunes organize the folder on that workstation.  Next I drop an album cover in the folder as "folder.jpg" for redundant, maximum support.  Finally, I copy this folder over the LAN to the NAS, and to the external USB drive on my headless Mac Mini running Audirvana+.  I like the effective backup this gives me, not only of the rip, but against one system or other going offline.  I back up my NAS, so that gives me four copies of my library at home.  I exclude music from backups on the Macs.

Is my workflow "simple"?  Not in terms of step-count, maybe, but it traps a lot potential points of failure!

Comments and suggestions welcome.  Together we will shine the light on the right path.

Nick

ChrisSU posted:

Bill_nyc posted:

I'm leaning toward the minimalist approach and would like to avoid redundancy (ie, another DAC in my streaming device).  That is why the Allo DigiOne Signature option is appealing. 

BTW, all my music is stored on a ReadyNAS.  I've seen some posts mentioning music streaming software installed in a NAS, but I don't understand how this would work.  Is this a worthwhile option?

Your ReadyNAS will be fine for storage and running a server for a UPnP streamer. My dealer uses them in preference to the Synology and QNAP models popular with forum members. Does this mean you have got rid if the Unitiserve? 

I would consider an Innuos server if you move on from the UnitiServe as it will give you all the web and local streaming functions you want, and the new models will include an SPDIF output. Just add a DAC. 

Only the ZENmini Mk3 has S/PDIF outputs. The Zen Mk3 and the Zenith Mk3 appear to only have USB outputs, unfortunately.

Bill_nyc posted:

...

BTW, all my music is stored on a ReadyNAS.  I've seen some posts mentioning music streaming software installed in a NAS, but I don't understand how this would work.  Is this a worthwhile option?

You can install and run a UPnP server on a NAS. But it is possible that a given NAS does not support (or does not support well) a specific UPnP server that you might want to use.

As a general rule, I do not think that it is a good idea running a UPnP server on a NAS, see https://forums.naimaudio.com/t...20#77596589410074120 and the following posts. But there are exceptions to the rule.

In your original post, you write that you have been running a UnitiServe connected to a Naim DAC for about 8 years. In another post, you mention that all your music is stored on a ReadyNAS.

What are precisely the roles of the UnitiServe and of the ReadyNAS in your replay system? Is it correct that your UnitiServe is connected to the nDAC via a S/PDIF cable? In this case, is there something that you are missing apart from the lack of support for internet streaming service?

If this is not the case, the most obvious step would be to replace the UnitiServe with a single box server + renderer solution with outstanding S/PDIF outputs and support for internet streaming services.

As a matter of facts, there are not many choices apart from the InnuOS Zen mini Mk3 and the already mentioned DigiOne transports: manufacturers want you to buy many boxes with redundant and unused functionalities.

My US is an SSD version, with all music stored on the NAS, and it’s connected to the Ndac via S/PDIF.  The only thing I’m missing is support for streaming services.  It sounds like a UPNP server installed on the NAS would be redundant with the US.  Thanks for clarifying.

Bill_nyc posted:

My US is an SSD version, with all music stored on the NAS, and it’s connected to the Ndac via S/PDIF.  The only thing I’m missing is support for streaming services.  It sounds like a UPNP server installed on the NAS would be redundant with the US.  Thanks for clarifying.

Exactly.  If you did not already have the UnitiServe, you might consider other options; but you made the decision long ago, and the US is not without unique charms.  Enjoy them.

There are tons of streamers you could choose with “redundant DACs”.  The question is, how much does that useless DAC add to what you pay, and does the useless DAC prevent the streamer from performing as well as available streamers without DACs.  One could go mad discerning.

The Mac Mini, Sonos, and Squeezebox Touch I have used all have DACs I decided to circumvent; but their availability does give each usability flexibility.  I seriously doubt the DACs were added to lard the price.   Who knows what leaving the DACs out of Naim ND steamers would mean in $ or performance? Maybe nothing.

IMHO, a Naim streamer is a natural choice, unless you have become disenchanted or bored with the brand, which would be valid, of course.  If you  got a great deal on an NDX or NDS, you could trade in the nDAC, or not.  The US can be changed out later, if you ever want to.  

You have many good options.  Take your time, and do what you want.  No wrong answers, really.  

Keep us posted.

Nick

Bill_nyc posted:

My US is an SSD version, with all music stored on the NAS, and it’s connected to the Ndac via S/PDIF.  The only thing I’m missing is support for streaming services.  It sounds like a UPNP server installed on the NAS would be redundant with the US.  Thanks for clarifying.

You are right. In this case a DigiOne Signature connected to the nDAC vie S/PDIF (the nDAC has two BNC connectors) will give you the same functionalities of the UnitiServe and access to internet streaming services. You will be able to run the two systems in parallel which is also good for reliability and stream from Tidal, Qobuz, etc, gaplessly.

The quality of the S/PDIF output of the DigiOne Signature should also be better than that of the UnitiServe if you feed the clean side of the DigiOne Signature with a decent power supply. A 1TB or 2TB SSD connected to the DigiOne Signature (I use a Samsung T5) would allow you later to get rid of the NAS and of the UnitiServe altogether.

NickSeattle posted:

Bill_nyc posted:

My US is an SSD version, with all music stored on the NAS, and it’s connected to the Ndac via S/PDIF.  The only thing I’m missing is support for streaming services.  It sounds like a UPNP server installed on the NAS would be redundant with the US.  Thanks for clarifying.

Exactly.  If you did not already have the UnitiServe, you might consider other options; but you made the decision long ago, and the US is not without unique charms.  Enjoy them.

There are tons of streamers you could choose with “redundant DACs”.  The question is, how much does that useless DAC add to what you pay, and does the useless DAC prevent the streamer from performing as well as available streamers without DACs.  One could go mad discerning.

The Mac Mini, Sonos, and Squeezebox Touch I have used all have DACs I decided to circumvent; but their availability does give each usability flexibility.  I seriously doubt the DACs were added to lard the price.   Who knows what leaving the DACs out of Naim ND steamers would mean in $ or performance? Maybe nothing.

IMHO, a Naim streamer is a natural choice, unless you have become disenchanted or bored with the brand, which would be valid, of course.  If you  got a great deal on an NDX or NDS, you could trade in the nDAC, or not.  The US can be changed out later, if you ever want to.  

You have many good options.  Take your time, and do what you want.  No wrong answers, really.  

Keep us posted.

Nick

 

If the OP is comfortable with his setup, there is no point for him to move to an Ethernet streaming solution. This would introduce unnecessary complications for nothing. Also, notice that legacy Naim streamers like NDX or NDS provide no or very limited support for internet streaming services which is what the OP would like to add to his current system.

NickSeattle posted:

Bill_nyc posted:

My US is an SSD version, with all music stored on the NAS, and it’s connected to the Ndac via S/PDIF.  The only thing I’m missing is support for streaming services.  It sounds like a UPNP server installed on the NAS would be redundant with the US.  Thanks for clarifying.

...

The Mac Mini, Sonos, and Squeezebox Touch I have used all have DACs I decided to circumvent; but their availability does give each usability flexibility.  I seriously doubt the DACs were added to lard the price.   Who knows what leaving the DACs out of Naim ND steamers would mean in $ or performance? Maybe nothing.

...

I would expect that leaving out the DAC board from the ND555 would significantly reduce its price. The ND800 streaming board of the ND555 is the same used in all ND devices. A significant part of the costs of the ND555 come from power regulation and subsystem isolation. Without a DAC in the same box, these costs too could be significantly reduced.

But what is more interesting than a streamer without a DAC are DACs without streaming platforms. Streaming services, protocols and formats are evolving rapidly. Today we have Qobuz, tomorrow perhaps Idagio. Also, the value of a streaming platform is very much determined by the software that runs on that platform. The value of a DAC board tend to be more stable and less dependent on the quality and on the updateness of software components.

From this angle, it seems to me wiser to invest in DACs with standard USB and S/PDIF inputs rather than in integrated DAC + streaming platform solutions. This is particularly true for large investment, of course.

.. to which I’d add that the people with the talents to design good streaming platforms are very rarely the same people as those with the talents to design good DACs.

You could look at Simaudio MiND network streamers which are pure streamers without any superfluous DACs etc. The MiND platform currently supports vTuner. TiDAL, Qobuz and Deezer as well as UPnP servers. It is possible to buy the old MiND 180 streamer relatively cheaply and you can then upgrade to the latest MiND2 module later if you want to. Simaudio are equivalent to the 'Naim of Canada' and good at offering customers upgrade options to keep things current. Personally I find their current MiND streamer very good for pulling music off my QNAP server and onwards to a DAC.

nbpf posted

The quality of the S/PDIF output of the DigiOne Signature should also be better than that of the UnitiServe if you feed the clean side of the DigiOne Signature with a decent power supply. A 1TB or 2TB SSD connected to the DigiOne Signature (I use a Samsung T5) would allow you later to get rid of the NAS and of the UnitiServe altogether.

Interested to read that with a good power supply the sound quality will be better than the US.  The Allo site recommends a battery pack for the clean side as the default configuration.  How much better would a good power supply sound and is this a cost-effective configuration?

Bill_nyc posted:

nbpf posted

The quality of the S/PDIF output of the DigiOne Signature should also be better than that of the UnitiServe if you feed the clean side of the DigiOne Signature with a decent power supply. A 1TB or 2TB SSD connected to the DigiOne Signature (I use a Samsung T5) would allow you later to get rid of the NAS and of the UnitiServe altogether.

Interested to read that with a good power supply the sound quality will be better than the US.  The Allo site recommends a battery pack for the clean side as the default configuration.  How much better would a good power supply sound and is this a cost-effective configuration?

Again, your question is discussed at length in the https://forums.naimaudio.com/t...lo-digione-signature treaad and in similar CA threads, see in particular the posts by RX8R3ROD. A good power supply does not necessarily sound better than batteries, it is just more convenient. The reason why Allo are recommending a battery pack is twofold: first, the recommended batteries sound very good. Second, Allo are developing their own low-noise power supply. Many DigiOne Signature users are waiting for this PSU and use batteries as a temporary solution. I have not played around with different power supplies and find batteries inconvenient. I use an UpTone Audio LPS-1.2 to power the clean side of the DigiOne Signature and it sounds gorgeous to my ears. I am also not running Volumio or DietPi on the Raspberry Pi that hosts the DigiOne. Instead, I use a minimal, headless Raspbain distribution running MinimServer and upmpdcli. This makes the RPi + DigiOne Signature a complete UPnP server + renderer solution with S/PDIF output. Control points are BubbleUPnP (Android) and Linn Kazoo (iOS, Android). 

BILL_NYC, I keep re-reading your original post to regain focus on what you are really after, which seems to be no more than adding Spotify OR Tidal, or similar, for less than thousands.  I have found that repurposing a nearly-obsolete computer, and inserting a Firerfly or Meridian USB-to-TOSLINK out from the PC/Mac to the nDAC, provides an exceedingly good result with Spotify and Spotify Connect on the phone or tablet you choose — unexpected for the modest investment. I confess, I think my setup sounds as good or better than my NDX playing Spotify, though slightly less convenient.  

I did not get on with Tidal — twice the price of Spotify Premium, with less catalog, at the time I compared.  The Tidal UI integration with Naim is better than jumping out to the Spotify app, but any difference in SQ was not enough that I cared, for my purposes.  Deezer appeals to me, but not enough better than Spotify to upset domestic harmony in pursuit of today’s hotness.

Stay with it, and enjoy the jouney.

Nick

Another option is Google Chromecast Audio, it's optical output is not bad and can deliver PCM 24/96, better than AirPlay. Many APP support it including Spotify and Tidal, even Roon.

NickSeattle posted:

BILL_NYC, I keep re-reading your original post to regain focus on what you are really after, which seems to be no more than adding Spotify OR Tidal, or similar, for less than thousands.  I have found that repurposing a nearly-obsolete computer, and inserting a Firerfly or Meridian USB-to-TOSLINK out from the PC/Mac to the nDAC, provides an exceedingly good result with Spotify and Spotify Connect on the phone or tablet you choose — unexpected for the modest investment. I confess, I think my setup sounds as good or better than my NDX playing Spotify, though slightly less convenient.  

...

A general purpose computer with a USB to S/PDIF bridge is a viable approach but, in order to match or exceeed the sound quality of the UnitiServe, some care is needed.

Ideally one wants to use a dedicated, fanless, headless low-power computer powered from a linear PSU. Another low-noise PSU is needed for the USB to S/PDIF bridge. This makes overall 4 boxes.

A DigiOne or a DigiOne Signature take away some of this complexity as they are directly attached to the host RPi. They come with plug-and-play dedicated audio distributions which can be configured via a web interface. This makes them ideal devices for users who are computer illiterate.

Another advantage of RPi based solutions is that  the OSs are stored on the RPi's micro SD card as with the Sonore micro- and ultraRendu, the SoTM sMS-200 and sMS-200ultra and many other devices based on SBCs. It is a matter of minutes to burn an image of the CD to disk and, in case of a hardware or software failure, to replace the RPi and restore the original system.

RPi + DigiOne or RPi + DigiOne Signature combinations can run 24/4 for months or even years completely unattended. By contrast general purpose computers are far less reliable and full fledged OSs typically receive update requests that require human intervention. 

Finally, a RPi + DigiOne requires one PSU. A RPi + DigiOne Signature requires 2 PSUs. This amounts to 2 and 3 boxes, respectively instead of 4.

Meaningful alternative to RPi-based solutions are mac mini, NUC and fitPC devices. These would then require USB to S/PDIF interfaces like the Schiit Eitr or the Mutec MC-3+ USB.

I think, together, we have provided ample advice to our friend, Bill.

I look forward to hearing what he decides to do.

I am off to try to be helpful  on a record-changer thead, if I can find one.

Nick

OuYang posted:

Another option is Google Chromecast Audio, it's optical output is not bad and can deliver PCM 24/96, better than AirPlay. Many APP support it including Spotify and Tidal, even Roon.

This is doable but the sound quality would be very much compromised in comparison to the UnitiServe and to solutions based on DigiOne and DigiOne Signature. Streaming Qobuz and Tidal through the Chromecast Audio would also require running BubbleUPnP Server on a LAN computer. By contrast running upmpdcli on the RPi that hosts the DigiOne or the DigiOne Signature provides gapless streaming of Tidal, Qobuz, Googlemuisc, etc.

nbpf posted:

OuYang posted:

Another option is Google Chromecast Audio, it's optical output is not bad and can deliver PCM 24/96, better than AirPlay. Many APP support it including Spotify and Tidal, even Roon.

This is doable but the sound quality would be very much compromised in comparison to the UnitiServe and to solutions based on DigiOne and DigiOne Signature. Streaming Qobuz and Tidal through the Chromecast Audio would also require running BubbleUPnP Server on a LAN computer. By contrast running upmpdcli on the RPi that hosts the DigiOne or the DigiOne Signature provides gapless streaming of Tidal, Qobuz, Googlemuisc, etc.

I am not against your opinion, but if Bill can accept AirPlay as a option, I don't see the sound quality of Chromecast Audio optical output is a issue, actually it is better than AirPlay.

Neither Bill and I mention Qobuz, like what I said, streaming Spotify and Tidal and Roon to Chromecast Audio, you really don't need anything else.

 Review and Measurements of Chromecast Audio Digital Output

As a Roon user, I also have Roon Ready Player much better than Chromecast Audio. Recently Roon starts to support Chromecast Audio, I am quite surprising the sound quality of Chromecast Audio optical output. Of course it can't beat my network player. But if your streaming source is Spotify and TIDAL that Bill mentioned at the beginning post, this is another cheap and easy to use option with good quality.

OuYang posted:

As a Roon user, I also have Roon Ready Player much better than Chromecast Audio. Recently Roon starts to support Chromecast Audio, I am quite surprising the sound quality of Chromecast Audio optical output. Of course it can't beat my network player. But if your streaming source is Spotify and TIDAL that Bill mentioned at the beginning post, this is another cheap and easy to use option with good quality.

Very much the same opinion. I like the CCAudio very much however it is bettered by the Allo Digione.

I've been running the ChromeCast Audio into my SN1's Dac for a long time.

OuYang posted:

nbpf posted:

OuYang posted:

Another option is Google Chromecast Audio, it's optical output is not bad and can deliver PCM 24/96, better than AirPlay. Many APP support it including Spotify and Tidal, even Roon.

This is doable but the sound quality would be very much compromised in comparison to the UnitiServe and to solutions based on DigiOne and DigiOne Signature. Streaming Qobuz and Tidal through the Chromecast Audio would also require running BubbleUPnP Server on a LAN computer. By contrast running upmpdcli on the RPi that hosts the DigiOne or the DigiOne Signature provides gapless streaming of Tidal, Qobuz, Googlemuisc, etc.

I am not against your opinion, but if Bill can accept AirPlay as a option, I don't see the sound quality of Chromecast Audio optical output is a issue, actually it is better than AirPlay.

Neither Bill and I mention Qobuz, like what I said, streaming Spotify and Tidal and Roon to Chromecast Audio, you really don't need anything else.

 Review and Measurements of Chromecast Audio Digital Output

As a Roon user, I also have Roon Ready Player much better than Chromecast Audio. Recently Roon starts to support Chromecast Audio, I am quite surprising the sound quality of Chromecast Audio optical output. Of course it can't beat my network player. But if your streaming source is Spotify and TIDAL that Bill mentioned at the beginning post, this is another cheap and easy to use option with good quality.

The measurement suggest that Chromecast Audio (CA) is fine if driven by Roon and just acceptable otherwise. Another important aspect is gapless replay. This is supported by upmpdcli for both Tidal and Qobuz. I would expect that CA when driven by Roon also supports gapless replay. But not all settings support gapless replay via CA. For instance, the new Naim streamers fail to do so for Qobuz streams. I guess the OP has meanwhile enough input to make an informed decision. Hopefully he is not confused by the many options.

Have ordered a DigiOne Signature.  Will post impressions once I've had a chance to listen to it.  Will also compare to my UnitiServe when I get it back from service.

Bill_nyc posted:

Have ordered a DigiOne Signature.  Will post impressions once I've had a chance to listen to it.  Will also compare to my UnitiServe when I get it back from service.

I am looking forward to read your findings. Right now I'm listening to Theodor Currentzis' Tchaikovsky 6th through the DigiOne Signature powered by UpTone Audio's JS-2 and LPS-1.2 and it sounds just fantastic! 

Bill_nyc posted:

Have ordered a DigiOne Signature.  Will post impressions once I've had a chance to listen to it.  Will also compare to my UnitiServe when I get it back from service.

Hi Bill, Joe from NYC here. I second NBPF's recommendation to get the Uptone Audio LPS 1.2 to power your DigiOne. I use the Uptone power supply with a Sonore ultraRendu (more or less the same deal as what you're getting, but with USB output) and it's great. I can't begin to fathom why power supplies for one's streaming devices should matter, but to these ears they do.

Until recently, I'd been running the above streaming setup into a Chord Hugo 2 -- but after the Hugo decided to stop working, I subbed in a $90 Topping A10 DAC and I don't miss the Hugo at all. After I get the Hugo repaired, off to Audiogon it goes.

What this suggests to me is that DAC technology is quite mature -- to the point that today's cheap DACs can readily compete with vastly more expensive audiophile fare. I think the gains are to be had on the streaming side.

The Uptone power supplies get great reviews and I'm sure they're worth the money.  But I don't want to spend that much at the moment and am considering the iFi power supply.  I was going to go with the batteries, perhaps until Allo comes out with its own power supply(?), but now I'm thinking they will be  hassle to keep charged.  How much of a step down in sound quality will it be using the iFi power vs both the battery pack and the Uptone power supplies?