What's the score with Linn?

Sounsfaber posted:

joerand posted:

Sounsfaber posted: 

so the “score” is Naim Audio 1 Linn Audio 0

Profound information for the pissing match contestants among us.

Linn still makes (and sells) speakers so I guess it's tied 1-1?

Shall we run this line of logic to the nth degree?

Ok then, how’s Naim Fraim so that’s 2-1????????

Oh, logic what?  it’s audio you know, emotional  silly.

ok lp12 so that’s 2 all.... can naim get ahead with hiline and power line???

..and Super Lumia ?

Oh, wait a minute, Linn makes speakers you can dress up in wooly jumpers, don't they ?   How coool  is that?  

/Peder???? 

rjstaines posted:

William posted:

Not boring just challenging because Naim‘s RRP pricing for markets outside UK means that I will be taking a huge hit on residuals. As for the Fraim, a dealer told me nobody wants that kind of furniture in Europe because the trend has moved on so far. I hope I don‘t have to put that in the skip!

What colour is the Fraim, William?   (shelves & uprights)

Maple/silver. 

iliria posted:

William posted:

I am going from six (mostly) black boxes to one silver box. 

I am exactly of that line of thought myself only with the difference/advantage that I never went down the route of multiple boxes. My hifi needs were being fulfilled through my AVR and I decided to get the Nova for that purpose and keep the avr just for movies (5.1). 

I did look into Linn but was put off by the scary prices. My main curiosity with Linn is whether the price is justified or is partially inflated due to brand name? When comparing for example the Nova (£4200) with the Selekt (£6750). 

The other curious bit is that when people ask in this forum about speakers the members recommend a variety of brands but almost never Linn speakers. So I thought that their speakers are either not good and overpriced or there is some sort of rivalry unknown to new people like me who have just joined the Naim. 

Strange that Linn would use B&W 804D3 in their listening room and not their own.

except the lp12, the most products on the second hand market , in England, are from Linn.

It must say something....

French Rooster posted:

except the lp12, the most products on the second hand market , in England, are from Linn.

It must say something....

...they sold the most brand new products to start with ?

iliria posted:

I have noticed that the brand is hardly ever mentioned in these forums despite being amongst the top British hifi brands. Is the rivalry with Naim so fierce? It is funny because even as I am writing this post, in my brain I can hear that tense music that you hear in Western films when everything goes quiet before a shootout.

I'm just curious if their products are good enough to match their prices? I am aware of the reputation of the LP12 but what about the rest? Majik speakers any good? And so on?

I own an LP12 and have done for 16 years, you can see my set up in my bio, as I always say the best of Salisbury and Glasgow.

love the LP12 as a source, i recently went to the Selkt launch out of interest,

I visited thier factory last year which was a superb visit - NEVER got to Salibury yet which I need to put right 

I have never been a fan of Linn speakers Isob excluded

Linn have also closed thier fourm, active FB page of owners which is a broader church than pure springs arms and upgrades

there is a lovely harmoney between LP12 as a source and NAIM Pre & AMP's IMO LP12/NDX/282/HCDR/300DR

Was their forum not making enough money for them?

Is that why it closed......

rjstaines posted:

French Rooster posted:

except the lp12, the most products on the second hand market , in England, are from Linn.

It must say something....

...they sold the most brand new products to start with ?

i didn’t understood you, sorry.  I wanted just to say that, on the second hand market, there are a lot of linn electronics for sell, much more than naim or other brands.  ( on the uk market).

French Rooster posted:

i didn’t understood you, sorry.  I wanted just to say that, on the second hand market, there are a lot of linn electronics for sell, much more than naim or other brands.  ( on the uk market).

I think your original comment can be taken two ways; either as a praise or as criticism. The abundance of Linn products in the secondary market could be either due to the fact that Linn sell a lot and Linn fans like to upgrade or it could be due to the fact that people get disapppinted with the products and get rid of them after a while.

Japtimscarlet posted:

Was their forum not making enough money for them?

Is that why it closed......

I believe it was getting out of control and in the end they decided to close it altogether. I suppose it is an indication of how improtant and how demanding the work of a moderator is (which is often taken for granted).

iliria posted:

French Rooster posted:

i didn’t understood you, sorry.  I wanted just to say that, on the second hand market, there are a lot of linn electronics for sell, much more than naim or other brands.  ( on the uk market).

I think your original comment can be taken two ways; either as a praise or as criticism. The abundance of Linn products in the secondary market could be either due to the fact that Linn sell a lot and Linn fans like to upgrade or it could be due to the fact that people get disapppinted with the products and get rid of them after a while.

maybe, but i hear more often of departures from linn to other brands like naim or other brands than the contrary.  I am speaking of linn amps, not sources.  

There does seem to be a synergy between the Sondek and Naim amplification. It’s certainly true historically and before the big fallout.  I still believe this combination remains strong as evidenced by the number of other users in this place.

Back in the day I had an Exposure amplifier. It was lovely but I wanted to really choose a long term option and stick with it. Linn were an obvious choice but I found them a bit boring. I listened to quite a few other brands but it was Naim that really engaged me. Never looked back, and never feel the need to listen to Linn amps again.

Losing the forum does seem a strangely suspicious thing to do though.

Stu

Linn make some nice kit, but bizarrely I am not a fan of all Linn systems. They seem to be less than the sum of the parts

I like Linn sources though.

In answer to the OP's original question, I am not sure why Linn would be singled out for discussion on here as , generally speaking, Linn and Naim customers are looking for different things in HiFi, other than of course Hi(gh) Fi(delity).

I too was a long-time Linn owner with my beloved LP12 but that was using Naim (and other) amplification. The question the OP raises does however prompt me to think why I have an all Naim system (well source & amplification) and why I never went down the Linn route. The primary reason is, for me, the addictive sound signature and engaging nature of Naim gear.

I recently listened to the Kudos 505 speakers fronted by a Linn streamer and Linn active amplification, a speaker I have heard a couple of times previously with Naim sources and amplification. There was no comparison. Linn - clean, succinct but ultimately un-engaging. Naim - impactful, visceral, engaging and, yes, probably OTT for some, but never, never boring.

I would always go for attention-grabbing, engaging, with an emotional connection and, yes, possibly unfaithful, than clean, lean and ultimately unemotional.

Speak to a Linn owner and you will get a diametrically opposed, and equally valid opinion.

nigelb posted:

In answer to the OP's original question, I am not sure why Linn would be singled out for discussion on here as , generally speaking, Linn and Naim customers are looking for different things in HiFi, other than of course Hi(gh) Fi(delity).

I would always go for attention-grabbing, engaging, with an emotional connection and, yes, possibly unfaithful, than clean, lean and ultimately unemotional.

Nigel, the reason for my post was purely inquisitive. I am aware of some common history between Naim and Linn and also have seen the high regard in which the LP12 is held in this forum and others. Therefore I was quite curious as to why there is a rather deadly silence regarding the other Linn products in this forum. What made me curious the most though was the fact that Linn products seem to demand rather high prices compared to a lot of other products (Naim included).

However, your last sentence which I have quoted above does clarify a lot for me and to an extent it reminds me of the opinions I get often when talking about B&W speakers

You could ask precisely the same question about Chord. People seem to love their DACs, but their extensive range of amplification is virtually never mentioned. They even make a streaming preamp, but again that is never discussed. I wonder why. 

Interesting,  I would agree with NigelB that the demo he heard was as he described....the best Linn based system I have heard, but did not really engage. I heard a fairly high end a Chord system the year before with DAVE and muscle amps, seemed very bright portrayal of music. This year Chord Etude, Dave, Mscaler and ATC, sounded pretty good.

We all try to help with what we have heard, we all need good dealer and home demo,s.

stuart.ashen posted:

There does seem to be a synergy between the Sondek and Naim amplification. It’s certainly true historically and before the big fallout.

I've only been with Naim for 6+ years.  What was the "big fallout?"

iliria posted:

I have noticed that the brand is hardly ever mentioned in these forums despite being amongst the top British hifi brands. Is the rivalry with Naim so fierce? It is funny because even as I am writing this post, in my brain I can hear that tense music that you hear in Western films when everything goes quiet before a shootout.

I'm just curious if their products are good enough to match their prices? I am aware of the reputation of the LP12 but what about the rest? Majik speakers any good? And so on?

Hardly ever mentioned? Do you have eyes earthling?

nigelb posted:

I too was a long-time Linn owner with my beloved LP12 but that was using Naim (and other) amplification. The question the OP raises does however prompt me to think why I have an all Naim system (well source & amplification) and why I never went down the Linn route. The primary reason is, for me, the addictive sound signature and engaging nature of Naim gear.

...

Speak to a Linn owner and you will get a diametrically opposed, and equally valid opinion.

Now that I am, at least for the moment, an owner of complete systems from both Naim and Linn (the latter being Klimax DSM Exakt with active Akubariks), I can hear for myself: not only is the Linn sound clean and precise but it is effortlessly emotional and engaging. The astounding thing is that it achieves this with just one slim box and two beautiful speakers. Amplification should be heard and not seen.

hungryhalibut posted:

You could ask precisely the same question about Chord. People seem to love their DACs, but their extensive range of amplification is virtually never mentioned. They even make a streaming preamp, but again that is never discussed. I wonder why. 

Because it's all so fugly 

I find some of the disparaging comments about Linn hi-fi equipment (with the general exception of the Linn LP12) on this forum extremely puzzling. I might also add that I found similar disparaging comments about Naim Audio hi-fi equipment on the now defunct Linn forum to be equally puzzling.

I currently own a Linn network streaming source in my main system (and a Naim Muso Qb), but I do not use amplification or speakers from Linn or Naim in any of my systems and so my position could be said to be fairly (if not completely) neutral.

I have recently listened to a Linn system owned by a friend which comprised a Linn Klimax DSM and Linn Klimax 350A Active speakers. It sounded superb, even at low listening volumes. I could very happily live with that system. I have also recently had the opportunity to listen fairly extensively to a relatively high end Naim system which comprised a Naim ND555 with single 555PS DR & NAP 300 DR (albeit with B&W rather than Naim speakers). This also sounded very good to my ears, and I could also happily live with that system.

The presentation of the systems was 'different', but there is no way that I would describe either as 'unexciting', 'boring', 'uncouth', 'harsh', 'edgy' or 'brash' - descriptions I have commonly seen attributed to either Linn or Naim equipment. I can understand why some hi-fi enthusiasts might choose Naim and I can equally understand why some might choose Linn. I simply cannot understand why some people disparage one or the other in what appears to me to be a very defensive manner.      

It might be that many of us are drawn into a 'camp', be it Naim, Linn or other manufacturers, while some are more than happy to mix brands in their system (by system I mean source and amplification primarily).

It is only natural that those that have settled in a camp, for whatever reason (usually a honestly held conviction about the superior SQ offered by that brand), will tend to dominate postings on that particular manufacturer's forum. So surprise, surprise, Naimees on the Naim forum will extoll the virtues of Naim (usually talking about their own system) over the competition. I do agree however this can become less than objective with exaggerated claims about Naim and the competition. Having said that, I do not see much of that on this thread but I am sure if you care to look back on this, and the now defunct Linn forum, you will find some silliness.

I also suspect that we do, to differing degrees, get 'conditioned' in our attitudes to Naim and their competitors' offerings - after all it is human nature. Such conditioning (if you accept this phenomenon) would surely be a powerful influencer on our opinions of a particular system's capabilities, whether we have actual experience of that system or not. The cost of a particular set up also 'preconditions' us, setting expectations before we even listen.

So, in conclusion, I would suggest that our attitudes towards a particular brand are driven by a heady mix of actual equipment performance (an opinion at best with many peripheral influences), our previous experiences and psychological conditioning. That means we are all correct, as a brand would surely never survive in this competitive niche market unless it was capable of delighting a financially viable number of customers.

From my experience I would say... the debate on sound will always be subjective, that’s part of the fun and as they say ...different strokes... We are fortunate in the Uk to have had some amazing individuals passionate about music and led the journey for each brands vision. Of course success and market share can drive some edgy actions and marketing but on balance brands such as Linn, Meridian, Arcam, Quad, Kef, B&W and many more UK brands have done an amazing job and some still continue to do so, Long live the UK audio industry,a shadow of its former self but it is something we can celebrate and appreciate it’s  engineering achievements. Choice is what we have, I think you all know my choice but I still respect my colleagues in the industry  and without the back bone of specialist UK retailers and press,none of us would have got very far.