What's the score with Linn?

Well the dealer I worked at in the 90's sold both Naim and Linn from 1990 until they closed last year due to rezoning of the place they had the shop for residential.

Regularly had Naim and Linn systems side by side. And they were happy to sell a customer either. Both Linn and Naim staff never held back from helping to host product evenings.

Even long after the gentleman's agreement fell apart, it was common to sell a Naim system with Linn Kabers or something like that. The synergy was extremely good in the Linn Tukan/Keilidh/Kaber era.

I don't believe Linn can legally require a dealer to not sell Naim or withhold a dealer agreement because of it. You could potentially sue a company that tried to enforce that for uncompetitive practices.

Like Mike, I have no desire to unduly criticise Linn gear, and, as I am completely unaware of the details of any fall out between Linn and Naim, my comments about Linn SQ are entirely based on actual listening experiences. Indeed any suggestion that comments by observers (music lovers) about the relative merits of either manufacturer's equipment might be influenced by 'history' between the two companies is, frankly, bizarre. But I might well be reading way to much into the intricacies of current and previous threads on the subject.

If the reported 'pressure' on dealers is true then that would be very sad. Surely there is room for two high end HiFi providers in the UK, bearing in mind their design and sound signature philosophies are so different, without resorting to such extreme distribution restrictions, putting the dealers at the centre of a dispute that has nothing to do with them.

Mind you, politics often gets in the way of common sense - just look at the mess we are in with…..no, I am not going to mention the 'B' word.

I'm greatfull they haven't been taken over by a foreign investment company. ( tho not sure how long they can sustain )

What can we say. Customer's can be fickle too as can dealers. Many dealers simply decided they really liked Naim or Linn and hated the other.

Similarly, customers flock to things by association. Not meaning to disrespect any Focal users, but prior to the Naim Focal marriage of necessity, there were hardly any (I say "hardly" not "none" so please no one get on their high horse on this) Naim customers who used Focal or had any regard for the brand whatsoever.

It's like the Naim/Linn partnership in reverse. And you can bet, if the Naim/Focal relationship splits up, the number of Focal owners will suddenly drop. Disparaging comments will arise and history will repeat itself more because people are tribal (regardless of how fat their wallet is or statements about it being purely about the sound quality) and less because of any real change in either brand's product offering. 

I am certainly not influenced by history having bought my LP12 in 2016 to go with my otherwise all Naim system. My own dealer sells both brands very successfully. Neither do I think saying I found Linn amps unengaging a critisism, simply a way to describe the outcome of a size by side demonstration.

I am happy if Linn do well and would not be surprised if Ivor went to the funeral of JV. They were giants of British hifi regardless of the subsequent issues. If I did have a critism of Linn it would only be because Ivor always suggested that you compare his kit with the competition. Not easy if Naim were banned from your dealership.

Stu

stuart.ashen posted:

I am happy if Linn do well and would not be surprised if Ivor went to the funeral of JV. They were giants of British hifi regardless of the subsequent issues. If I did have a critism of Linn it would only be because Ivor always suggested that you compare his kit with the competition. Not easy if Naim were banned from your dealership.

Stu

Very well put .. couldn't agree more..

I bought the first item of Linn / Naim equipment in 1978 ( LP 12 )  then bought my first Naim amplifier 32, Snaps & 250 CB in 1982. 

A year later the DMS Isobariks in 1983 which I still own together with the LP12. Further along I bought the Hi-Cap followed by the Nat 101 / Snaps then CDS / CDPS.

The first Naim Kit was bought from The Sound Organisation but after their demise I went to Studio 99 after a few years in the late 1980’s I was in their they informed me that they no longer had the Linn franchise but were able to still service my LP 12.

Regards,

Martin

nigelb posted:

Mind you, politics often gets in the way of common sense - just look at the mess we are in with…..no, I am not going to mention the 'B' word.

Now, now, don't blame Burmester. They havent done anything

kuma posted:

I'm greatfull they haven't been taken over by a foreign investment company. ( tho not sure how long they can sustain )

Give it a few years and they will probably end up the Volvo way

Anyone watch last night's episode of The Apprentice? The candidates were attempting to sell art to corporate clients. One of these was Linn, for their Glasgow showroom. 

Gilad was explaining the Linn ethos to them, and proudly played a system (Klimax DSM I think) to the team but one candidate insisted on talking over the music and then asked Gilad: "Does it do surround sound?". Needless to say he was not impressed.

He wasn't too impressed by the art they chose either, and refused to buy any of it.

That programme should be pulled, with or without Linn. It seems to promote and make acceptable the very worst aspects of human nature, majoring on spite, incompetence and mistrust. I avoid it at all costs. 

Kevin-W posted:

Anyone watch last night's episode of The Apprentice? The candidates were attempting to sell art to corporate clients. One of these was Linn, for their Glasgow showroom. 

Gilad was explaining the Linn ethos to them, and proudly played a system (Klimax DSM I think) to the team but one candidate insisted on talking over the music and then asked Gilad: "Does it do surround sound?". Needless to say he was not impressed.

He wasn't too impressed by the art they chose either, and refused to buy any of it.

Yes. It was almost embarrasing. Mind you. Amstrad as a hifi brand was a bit down-market from Linn, so AMS probably didn't see much wrong.

I wonder how much AMS and the BBC have to pay to these corporate clients to sort out the mess the "apprentices" make ?

ChrisSU posted:

That programme should be pulled, with or without Linn. It seems to promote and make acceptable the very worst aspects of human nature, majoring on spite, incompetence and mistrust. I avoid it at all costs. 

i don't avoid it, but you are right about the worst aspects of human nature element, and that isn't entirely limited to the apprentices !

Don Atkinson posted:

ChrisSU posted:

That programme should be pulled, with or without Linn. It seems to promote and make acceptable the very worst aspects of human nature, majoring on spite, incompetence and mistrust. I avoid it at all costs. 

i don't avoid it, but you are right about the worst aspects of human nature element, and that isn't entirely limited to the apprentices !

Gentlemen,

i can only agree. 

Regards,

Lindsay

ChrisSU posted:

That programme should be pulled, with or without Linn. It seems to promote and make acceptable the very worst aspects of human nature, majoring on spite, incompetence and mistrust.

You say that like it's a bad thing...

Don Atkinson posted:

Yes. It was almost embarrasing. Mind you. Amstrad as a hifi brand was a bit down-market from Linn, so AMS probably didn't see much wrong.

I wonder how much AMS and the BBC have to pay to these corporate clients to sort out the mess the "apprentices" make ?

Don, I was (briefly) involved with series 4 of the show. The BBC buys it "off the shelf" from the production company, so doesn't have to pay anyone else anything. It's not Sugar's show, so he gets paid rather than pays anything out.

The production company budgets for repairs and compensation, and everything is explained beforehand. Most people are happy to participate for free or expenses because of the publicity.

Kevin-W posted:

Anyone watch last night's episode of The Apprentice? The candidates were attempting to sell art to corporate clients. One of these was Linn, for their Glasgow showroom. 

Gilad was explaining the Linn ethos to them, and proudly played a system (Klimax DSM I think) to the team but one candidate insisted on talking over the music and then asked Gilad: "Does it do surround sound?". Needless to say he was not impressed.

He wasn't too impressed by the art they chose either, and refused to buy any of it.

What a pretentious pair from Linn. “The artwork should reflect our three pillars of innovation, provenance and experience.” Meaningless twaddle so what did they expect?

The whole programme is meant to be a send up, so nobody takes it seriously.

Kevin-W posted:

ChrisSU posted:

That programme should be pulled, with or without Linn. It seems to promote and make acceptable the very worst aspects of human nature, majoring on spite, incompetence and mistrust.

You say that like it's a bad thing...

 

I assume you make this comment tongue in cheek, but it is most definitely a bad thing.

ChrisSU posted:

That programme should be pulled, with or without Linn. It seems to promote and make acceptable the very worst aspects of human nature, majoring on spite, incompetence and mistrust. I avoid it at all costs. 

I completely agree. I think I have probably seen around one and a half episodes over the years and I also now avoid the programme at all costs.

I have never watched the American equivalent, but I dread to think what this was like. I believe that quite a famous figure from politics was involved. That makes sense given the accurate 'majoring on spite, incompetence and mistrust' assessment made by ChrisSU.

Oh dear - is this enough to get my post removed? If so, then my apologies.      

Jonn posted:

Kevin-W posted:

Anyone watch last night's episode of The Apprentice? The candidates were attempting to sell art to corporate clients. One of these was Linn, for their Glasgow showroom. 

Gilad was explaining the Linn ethos to them, and proudly played a system (Klimax DSM I think) to the team but one candidate insisted on talking over the music and then asked Gilad: "Does it do surround sound?". Needless to say he was not impressed.

He wasn't too impressed by the art they chose either, and refused to buy any of it.

What a pretentious pair from Linn. “The artwork should reflect our three pillars of innovation, provenance and experience.” Meaningless twaddle so what did they expect?

The whole programme is meant to be a send up, so nobody takes it seriously.

 

 

 

 

I'm not a fan of Corporate Core Value slogans either. But as these things go then I would suggest that their "three pillars of innovation, provenance and experience" are actually not too bad at all. 

Mind you, I didn't watch the programme, and so it is entirely possible that the Linn representatives did indeed come across as pretentious. But, then isn't their response precisely the sort of response the programme makers would want them to make?

I suspect you aren't really a fan of Linn products, are you? 

Sitting in Germany listening to Linn and loving it. Now, as far as The Apprentice is concerned, I couldn't possibly comment because I am not (supposed to be) watching BBC programmes. I have seen The Apprentice though and it is an obvious showcase for any progressive UK company seeking a wider customer base. So from my point of view this is a great move from Linn, especially when launching a new product range. Personally, I love the UK version of The Apprentice. If only the BBC would license it for European viewing they would make a bloody fortune, but hey I digress and we don't won't to get into protectionism and Brexit and I don't want another post censored so, reverting to the original topic, I am very glad to have both Linn and Naim to choose from. We would all be poorer if there was no choice.

feeling_zen posted:

Well the dealer I worked at in the 90's sold both Naim and Linn from 1990 until they closed last year due to rezoning of the place they had the shop for residential.

Regularly had Naim and Linn systems side by side. And they were happy to sell a customer either. Both Linn and Naim staff never held back from helping to host product evenings.

Even long after the gentleman's agreement fell apart, it was common to sell a Naim system with Linn Kabers or something like that. The synergy was extremely good in the Linn Tukan/Keilidh/Kaber era.

I don't believe Linn can legally require a dealer to not sell Naim or withhold a dealer agreement because of it. You could potentially sue a company that tried to enforce that for uncompetitive practices.

Let’s just say that the extent to which dealers were happy to go along with it was dependent on what was selling. Linn rather shot themselves in the foot I suspect. However, it’s unrealis to expect dealers to challenge. Even the bigger ones couldn’t afford to take that type of case.