Sending Music Files Through Power line Adaptors

The data probably would get transmitted intact, but that form of networking adds to the ‘noise’ on the electricity supply which is bad for anything connected to it that may be sensitive to it  ...including the hifi. If mains transmission is only used infrequently when adding more music, as your description implies, and off the rest of the time, then maybe for the person doing it would not be an issue (though conceivably neighbours with sensitive gear might be affected while it is in use). 

Naim have worked very hard on the new streamers to get the signal carrying voltages very low, using a technique called Low Voltage Differential Signaling (LVDS) specifically to reduce noise and minimize timing errors. I can't imagine that carrying anything audio related over 110 or 230 Volts is a good idea.

Essentially powerline adapters work by converting your mains wiring and everything connected to a large lossy non resonant wideband RF antenna.. and they modulate many many little RF carriers on your mains wiring. This allows powerline adapters  to squirt a large bandwidth of modulated RF carriers between each other. When using these  for home networking, they act as a kind of non-Ethernet network bridge... a kind of kludge. It can work ok, but can upset some devices expecting end to end Ethernet or Wifi.. and relatively speaking they have poor network characteristics due to the noisy and non deterministic environment they need to work in.

One of the key issues with them is they fact they work by adding relatively large amounts of RF  to your mains, and on sensitive electronic equipment, like high grade TVs, high grade audio, sensitive radio equipment and low signal level equipment, they can and almost certainly produce RFI undermining the performance of connected and nearby equipment.

For example Naim go to major efforts to decouple noise in their systems so as to boost performance... Powerline adapters will usually just cut across that and raise the noise floor removing fine details and presence (that realism we strive for in high end systems), and when really bad be actually audible.

There is also the issue of living in a house where there is 24/7 low level wideband nearfield RF.. I personally would not like to sleep  night in night out very close to a bed side lamp or alarm clock radio if I used these devices, just like I wouldn’t sleep right next to a Wifi access point ..though studies of effect of continual long term low level RF exposure are not yet conclusive.

So all in all.. not good Ethernet substitutes, can be unreliable,  can harm high end audio performance, interfere with radio reception and cause possible health concerns... suggests to me they are probably best avoided... 

You are better off using the right tools for the job, ethernet or properly implemented Wifi including multiple access points or mesh. 

Mr Paws posted:

Just a thought,

Powerline adaptors are not popular with some on here but a mate of mine does use them to send ripped files to his NAS.

I advised him not to do this but am I right here ?  I’m assuming the digital signal will somehow get degraded but is this really the case?  After all it’s all 0’s & 1’s . 

Cheers.

 

If sending the data over the Powerlines instead of Ethernet has somehow damaged it, I imagine you would hear obvious clicks or pops, or even silence, rather than degraded sound quality, although if the Powerlines remain active during playback, they may still cause issues as Simon has described above. 

This thread is disheartening and worrying. I’m about to make the jump from CD to streaming. Initially I was going to just stream music and in the coming months by a NAS and start to rip my (2500 strong) cd collection. I was either going to stream using the Wi-Fi ‘wirelessly’ or use a plug-in adaptor. Until I saw it briefly mentioned on another thread here last week I’d never heard anyone mention any issues using them.

 My (BT Fibre) router is in the living room downstairs and my Hi-Fi is upstairs. What to do? Run an Ethernet cable on the outside of the house?

 Has anyone actually tested them?

 Cheers

Rob

BLACKMASS posted:

This thread is disheartening and worrying. I’m about to make the jump from CD to streaming. Initially I was going to just stream music and in the coming months by a NAS and start to rip my (2500 strong) cd collection. I was either going to stream using the Wi-Fi ‘wirelessly’ or use a plug-in adaptor. Until I saw it briefly mentioned on another thread here last week I’d never heard anyone mention any issues using them.

 My (BT Fibre) router is in the living room downstairs and my Hi-Fi is upstairs. What to do? Run an Ethernet cable on the outside of the house?

 Has anyone actually tested them?

 Cheers

Rob

Ethernet cables cost next to nothing, That would be my choice, although there are better WiFi options available now compared to what was available a few years ago, so I wouldn’t necessarily rule it out. 

@CHRISSU Thanks for your reply. What other options are there?

ChrisSU posted:

Mr Paws posted:

Just a thought,

Powerline adaptors are not popular with some on here but a mate of mine does use them to send ripped files to his NAS.

I advised him not to do this but am I right here ?  I’m assuming the digital signal will somehow get degraded but is this really the case?  After all it’s all 0’s & 1’s . 

Cheers.

 

If sending the data over the Powerlines instead of Ethernet has somehow damaged it, I imagine you would hear obvious clicks or pops, or even silence, rather than degraded sound quality, although if the Powerlines remain active during playback, they may still cause issues as Simon has described above. 

From a data transfer point of view - most of our media streaming uses TCP which is designed to go over varying quality links including work around compromises like power line adapters - so apart from a possible slight increase in latency there should be no discernible difference (other than the TCP engine in the streamer might work harder which can be audible - but we are talking subtle here - kind of like wav vs flac but less so).. so no clicks or pops

The real issue comes from the support functions like discovery, automation and control - some of this mechanisms use UDP - these require a reliable underlying network - if data is lost it is not automatically resent and recovered - so devices might disappear from the Naim app or possibly volume control on the Naim app might get sticky and then suddenly jump etc.

For Mr Paws,  digital data is as much 1/0 as True/False, +/o, +/-, ./- etc These are simple abstractions. In practice  they are just alternate distinct analogue signal values that are encoded using voltage, current, light, phase, amplitude or combinations thereof etc that allows differentiation. The signal can quite easily be degraded when in transmission in different circumstances which is why there are different protocols to try and recover corrupted data. This corruption occurs when the signal level distinctions become indistinct. On ethernet over short distances this is in practice very very rare and is more likely for loss to occur in the host. Over wifi, radio links, long distance serial links, long distance fibre corruption in transmission is more common.

I have a hi-fi in an outbuilding in the garden. N272 connected from the house via an Ethernet cable that has a protective sleeve. Basically a black plastic housing and not much thicker than ordinary Ethernet cable. It is not armoured but found on the Internet as for external use. The cable goes round the house, into the ground in the garden in conduit and then along a fence to the outbuilding. Been in use for nearly two years without a problem. Hopefully mentioning this doesn’t evoke Sod’s Law.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

ChrisSU posted:

Mr Paws posted:

Just a thought,

Powerline adaptors are not popular with some on here but a mate of mine does use them to send ripped files to his NAS.

I advised him not to do this but am I right here ?  I’m assuming the digital signal will somehow get degraded but is this really the case?  After all it’s all 0’s & 1’s . 

Cheers.

 

If sending the data over the Powerlines instead of Ethernet has somehow damaged it, I imagine you would hear obvious clicks or pops, or even silence, rather than degraded sound quality, although if the Powerlines remain active during playback, they may still cause issues as Simon has described above. 

From a data transfer point of view - most of our media streaming uses TCP which is designed to go over varying quality links including work around compromises like power line adapters - so apart from a possible slight increase in latency there should be no discernible difference (other than the TCP engine in the streamer might work harder which can be audible - but we are talking subtle here - kind of like wav vs flac but less so).. so no clicks or pops

The real issue comes from the support functions like discovery, automation and control - some of this mechanisms use UDP - these require a reliable underlying network - if data is lost it is not automatically resent and recovered - so devices might disappear from the Naim app or possibly volume control on the Naim app might get sticky and then suddenly jump etc.

For Mr Paws,  digital data is as much 1/0 as True/False, +/o, +/-, ./- etc These are simple abstractions. In practice  they are just alternate distinct analogue signal values that are encoded using voltage, current, light, phase, amplitude or combinations thereof etc that allows differentiation. The signal can quite easily be degraded when in transmission in different circumstances which is why there are different protocols to try and recover corrupted data. This corruption occurs when the signal level distinctions become indistinct. On ethernet over short distances this is in practice very very rare and is more likely for loss to occur in the host. Over wifi, radio links, long distance serial links, long distance fibre corruption in transmission is more common.

Simon, the OP said the Powerlines were used to send CD rips TO a NAS, rather than to stream from NAS to streamer, so what I was trying to say is that the data either arrives intact or it doesn’t, (I have no idea what, if any, ‘protocols to try and recover corrupted data’ might be at play here) and that any ill effects of RFI on sound quality that you explained above would not apply at this stage, so much as when the music file is streamed. 

>>Simon, the OP said the Powerlines were used to send CD rips TO a NAS

Indeed, the same thing regarding media/data transfers using TCP. The 'network' doesn't care.  TCP will unless told not to ask for bad or lost data to be resent... and will work to create a segment of contiguous data above it

The data as sent and received might not necessarily be intact and of course it doesn't need to be received intact for these types of data transfers,  but can be recovered by the higher level transport protocols such as TCP in the processing engines in the operating system software of the hosts. 

Yes the ill effects would occur to anyone wanting to appreciate a quality audio replay system with powerline adapters present in the vicinity. Powerline adapters create RFI whether data is being transferred or not - though most implementation now increase the RFI during data transfers... but remember in a typical home local network there is a fair amount of administration traffic being sent to and from all hosts - and that will modulate the powerline adapters as well.

BLACKMASS posted:

@CHRISSU Thanks for your reply. What other options are there?

If you can run a cable - nothing wrong with that.  But some of the modern home wifi solutions may work just fine.  Google's mesh wifi products got a high review on one well-known tech review website.  Probably good cyber Monday deals around.

Bart posted:

BLACKMASS posted:

@CHRISSU Thanks for your reply. What other options are there?

If you can run a cable - nothing wrong with that.  But some of the modern home wifi solutions may work just fine.  Google's mesh wifi products got a high review on one well-known tech review website. 

Yes, it was Mesh WiFi devices I had in mind. Having said that, even some ISP supplied routers include reasonable 802.11ac WiFi now, as do the new Naim streamers, so if you’re lucky, that may be all you need. 

ChrisSU posted:

Bart posted:

BLACKMASS posted:

@CHRISSU Thanks for your reply. What other options are there?

If you can run a cable - nothing wrong with that.  But some of the modern home wifi solutions may work just fine.  Google's mesh wifi products got a high review on one well-known tech review website. 

Yes, it was Mesh WiFi devices I had in mind. Having said that, even some ISP supplied routers include reasonable 802.11ac WiFi now, as do the new Naim streamers, so if you’re lucky, that may be all you need. 

Indeed I'd start with the ISP-supplied router and see how wifi behaves.  If you get drop-outs, especially more drop-outs with hi res than std. res files, you'll want to invest in better hardware and given that it's 2018 I'd probably go straight to a mesh system.

I’m looking at buying the new ND5 XS 2. I’ll be speaking with my dealer about it this weeks.

 Apologies to OP for the thread hijack.

BLACKMASS posted:

I’m looking at buying the new ND5 XS 2. I’ll be speaking with my dealer about it this weeks.

 Apologies to OP for the thread hijack.

I get the general sense that wifi capabilities have been improved on this latest generation of Naim players. 

Some dealers truly have expertise in home wifi, some pretend they do and don't, and some fall in the middle.  I would not let this deter you from buying a Naim streamer player.

With an ND5 XS 2 I'd definitely try WiFi and positively avoid Powerline Adaptors.

If the ISP supplied WiFi router doesn't give an adequate signal to the location where you have the streamer, then I'd add a separate Wireless Access Point (a WAP) to the network in a position that does send a good WiFi signal to the streamer (and set it to use the 5GHz band to reduce contention issues).  You can then put your NAS in a position where it can be hard wired to your computer.  This is also a minimal change to your current network.

With the new streamers, use via WiFi (particularly on the 5GHz band) has very little compromise over a wired connection, and both are considerably better than powerline adaptors.

BLACKMASS posted:

This thread is disheartening and worrying. I’m about to make the jump from CD to streaming. Initially I was going to just stream music and in the coming months by a NAS and start to rip my (2500 strong) cd collection. I was either going to stream using the Wi-Fi ‘wirelessly’ or use a plug-in adaptor. Until I saw it briefly mentioned on another thread here last week I’d never heard anyone mention any issues using them.

 My (BT Fibre) router is in the living room downstairs and my Hi-Fi is upstairs. What to do? Run an Ethernet cable on the outside of the house?

 Has anyone actually tested them?

 Cheers

Rob

This is how I work. My BT HH5 in the kitchen and music in the living room upstairs. I use an Apple Express in the living room to extend wirelessly from the HH. My NAS, switch etc is in the living room. So the

express only supplys internet radio etc. However my Muso in the kitchen runs wirelessly and is faultless in getting music from the NAS upstairs, more so than my wired streamer in the living room.

Huge posted:

...... (and set it to use the 5GHz band to reduce contention issues). ......

With the new streamers, use via WiFi (particularly on the 5GHz band) has very little compromise over a wired connection, and both are considerably better than powerline adaptors.

 

I would send data over 2.4GHz. 5GHz has more bandwidth but 2.4GHz has more obstacle penetrating power. And for music streaming, 2.4GHz 802.11n is more than enough.

The distribution of WiFi energy varies between the bands.  If you have a building with thermal plasterboard (with an aluminium layer) or thick walls (my internal walls are 1/2m thick) then penetration is irrelevant as neither will give useful penetration.  On the other hand 5GHz diffracts and scatters more than 2.4GHz, so in my house I get better coverage from the 5GHz signal.

The intent of using 2 WAPS is that they can be in different locations to optimise their field strengths and for each to 'fill in' the places that the other won't reach - so again penetration is less important.  Also, unless you have a mesh type system where the individual WAPs are specifically designed to co-operate with each other and negotiate how to connect to a given device, then you'll need to use different channels for each WAP on the same band.  As there are only in effect 3 usable channels on the 2.4GHz band (due to channel overlaps) then channel contention becomes a serious issue.  This is much less of an issue on the 5GHz band.

Thanks so much  for all who have contributed to this thread ????

Well after listening to a few albums on his NAS which is playing through a router with appropriate cabling (no power lines in the circuit at all) there’s no degradation in the sound coming from his music system which is quite a revealing setup. 

My point is, playing music through power lines I do agree sounds inferior against Ethernet cabling but transferring music files across through power lines does not affect the end product not according to my ears and my mates. 

For those who are reading this thread not into streaming yet don’t panic.  I’ve been in a situation where I had to stream my music through power line adaptors due to a major refurbishment on my house and the music did sound slightly inferior to using the proper cabling but it’s not night and day difference just some fine detail missing in my experience.

I've had my music server, a Vortexbox Microserver, connected to my renderer, a sonore microrendu, via a TP LINK switch and 1m ethernet cables and, after needing to resite the server, using the switch and devolo powerline adaptors. If there is a difference in sound quality then I've yet to notice it.

Dave

????

Yep, they positively do interfere with the sonic performance, now whether you notice it or your system is sufficiently transparent is something else... but put a ‘scope on your powersupply wiring and you will see a zoo of mush... just regular physic and science...  put it this way they make switch mode powersupplies look positively benign...