Recommended Routers/Modems for Quality Streaming

Plumptonfc posted:

Huge posted:

The only things I've done to improve matters are to turn off the WiFi from the ISP supplied WiFi router & use a separate WAP (Wireless Access Point) and to add a separate network switch.  The WAP improved the reliability of the WiFi signal and the discovery of the Streamer and Media Server via the Naim app.  I kept the ISPs router to do the Broadband connection.

Thanks, that's interesting.

 

This is what I do at home as well.  My ISP's modem/router did not provide good enough wifi, so I turned it off and connected a WAP to it via the same 16-port switch that all my other "stuff" is connected to.  But happily I let the ISP modem/router do everything else including DHCP. It's all fine!

I run Untangle in a VM for my router, it does nothing for sound quality, but a more 'powerful' router can bring other benefits, in particular for a lot of connected devices for instance the speed of DNS resulting in faster page loads, as well as a raft of safety features. For instance Untangle has filters you can turn on to prevent some of the nasties out there, as well as the ability to set up policies for particular devices to be able to access the internet at certain times, useful with kids!

Its probably best to distinguish between a router and wifi access point, a device such as bt homehub can be both, but a router is not a wifi access point.

I only mention this because, if its something you interested in, then you can have a really great router for peanuts and add wifi access points to it.

Plumptonfc posted:

Thanks for all your feedback. Has anyone setup QoS on their Router with any positive effect on Music streaming?

Regards

Gary

Gary, DSCP markings are not recognised on the internet so will have no difference there... on the egress, from your router outwards, some commercial routers can be configured to prioritise packet queues based on DSCP.. but this will have no effect on consuming streams from the internet.

UPnP servers and Naim streamers don’t recognise DSCP.. or at least I have never seen them using it.

To have a any effect on SQ with Naim streamers, it’s best to keep latency to a minimum... one reason why some using Virgin Media routers hear a SQ difference as they have an issue over latency due to packet processing, but a recent firmware has mitigated this. (Hence my reference of not using faulty routers)

The matter of RTD latency on the SQ of Naim streamers is one reason why services like Tidal can sound better when using a media proxy server such as BubbleUPnP.

Blackmorec posted:

My feedback above is based on Virgin FTTC at around 220 mbps, so in my case, routers did indeed make a substantial difference.....however getting rid of their cheesy SMPSs  made an even bigger improvement. 

What SMPSs did you use?

thanks

Gary

garyi posted:

I run Untangle in a VM for my router, it does nothing for sound quality, but a more 'powerful' router can bring other benefits, in particular for a lot of connected devices for instance the speed of DNS resulting in faster page loads, as well as a raft of safety features. For instance Untangle has filters you can turn on to prevent some of the nasties out there, as well as the ability to set up policies for particular devices to be able to access the internet at certain times, useful with kids!

 

Its probably best to distinguish between a router and wifi access point, a device such as bt homehub can be both, but a router is not a wifi access point.

I only mention this because, if its something you interested in, then you can have a really great router for peanuts and add wifi access points to it.

When you say WAP do you mean a Modem?

thanks

Gary

Apart from the modem router, which is usually provided by your ISP, I would go for a good Wifi mesh, such as Google Wifi, Netgear Orbi.

Wifi mesh not only provides good wireless connectivity throughout the house, but each wifi mesh device has at least 2 or 4 ethernet ports just in case you want to hard wire your  streamer.

So I too have the Virgin Media box ( Virgin Media Ireland) in modem only mode. It was a rubbish switch, allowing only 10 LAN devices to be connected out to the WAN at any one time.

And once I put it into modem mode, connecting to a Cisco VPN Router, discovered it was throttling connections. So the Cisco VPN is my Gateway, proving Firewall, DCHP addressing (static for anything wired, dynamic for mobile devices/WiFi only), so does all the NAT work.

I then use port prioritisation in the network switching devices to ensure that any traffic containing music streaming is given 1st priority over other traffic.

Into the VPN Router there are 3 connections - one to a 8-way switch for the NAS units (2 have bonded 1Gigabit connections) and then connection to 5-way Cisco switch for the ‘front-end’ HiFi components (NDS, UltraRendu for the Roon UPnP Bridge, Asset UPnP server on RPi. Here any ports on the switch used for data containing music are prioritised over other ports. So this allows, NAS->NUC running ROCK for the Roon Core -> ‘frontend’ segment, or NAS -> ‘frontend’ to be given port priority over other network traffic, such as NAS to NAS when backups are being undertaken or this network segment to any other.

The next connection is another network segment with the IOT hubs for heating, lighting control, wireless security camera, entry mechanisms etc., basically no connections relating to music streaming. All at lower network priority over the segment above.

The other is to a Wireless Access Point, a 802.11ac level device capable of dual band, with 20Mhz and 40MHz side bands, so a possible connection throughput of 1750 Mbps, as well as supporting multiple SSIDs and 100’s of concurrent connections.

So I now have a network with elements prioritised for the data streaming from NAS to Hi-Fi components for music (internal & internet originated), plus a WiFi network that can support the 360Mbps down/36 Mbps up for mobile devices.

Simon

simes_pep posted:

So I too have the Virgin Media box ( Virgin Media Ireland) in modem only mode. It was a rubbish switch, allowing only 10 LAN devices to be connected out to the WAN at any one time.

And once I put it into modem mode, connecting to a Cisco VPN Router, discovered it was throttling connections. So the Cisco VPN is my Gateway, proving Firewall, DCHP addressing (static for anything wired, dynamic for mobile devices/WiFi only), so does all the NAT work.

I then use port prioritisation in the network switching devices to ensure that any traffic containing music streaming is given 1st priority over other traffic.

Into the VPN Router there are 3 connections - one to a 8-way switch for the NAS units (2 have bonded 1Gigabit connections) and then connection to 5-way Cisco switch for the ‘front-end’ HiFi components (NDS, UltraRendu for the Roon UPnP Bridge, Asset UPnP server on RPi. Here any ports on the switch used for data containing music are prioritised over other ports. So this allows, NAS->NUC running ROCK for the Roon Core -> ‘frontend’ segment, or NAS -> ‘frontend’ to be given port priority over other network traffic, such as NAS to NAS when backups are being undertaken or this network segment to any other.

The next connection is another network segment with the IOT hubs for heating, lighting control, wireless security camera, entry mechanisms etc., basically no connections relating to music streaming. All at lower network priority over the segment above.

The other is to a Wireless Access Point, a 802.11ac level device capable of dual band, with 20Mhz and 40MHz side bands, so a possible connection throughput of 1750 Mbps, as well as supporting multiple SSIDs and 100’s of concurrent connections.

So I now have a network with elements prioritised for the data streaming from NAS to Hi-Fi components for music (internal & internet originated), plus a WiFi network that can support the 360Mbps down/36 Mbps up for mobile devices.

Simon

Wow! That sounds good, I need to get reading up on Networking. Thanks Simon.

Plumptonfc posted:

When you say WAP do you mean a Modem?

thanks

 

Gary

No a WAP is a Wireless Access Point.
That is it connects to a network (normally via a wired connection) and it generates a WiFi signal from the network.

A modem connects a digital system (network or computer) directly to an analogue line (such as an analogue telephone line); the term modem is short for MODulator / DEModulator.

Plumptonfc posted:

Blackmorec posted:

My feedback above is based on Virgin FTTC at around 220 mbps, so in my case, routers did indeed make a substantial difference.....however getting rid of their cheesy SMPSs  made an even bigger improvement. 

What SMPSs did you use?

thanks

Gary

Hi, I was using the SMPSs supplied with the routers and network switch. I switched them out for Sean Jacob’s CHC DC3s. Made a fundamentally positive difference to SQ

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Plumptonfc posted:

Thanks for all your feedback. Has anyone setup QoS on their Router with any positive effect on Music streaming?

Regards

Gary

Gary, DSCP markings are not recognised on the internet so will have no difference there... on the egress, from your router outwards, some commercial routers can be configured to prioritise packet queues based on DSCP.. but this will have no effect on consuming streams from the internet.

UPnP servers and Naim streamers don’t recognise DSCP.. or at least I have never seen them using it.

To have a any effect on SQ with Naim streamers, it’s best to keep latency to a minimum... one reason why some using Virgin Media routers hear a SQ difference as they have an issue over latency due to packet processing, but a recent firmware has mitigated this. (Hence my reference of not using faulty routers)

The matter of RTD latency on the SQ of Naim streamers is one reason why services like Tidal can sound better when using a media proxy server such as BubbleUPnP.

 

Hi Simon,

The problem came from the Puma chipset used in Virgin’s Superhub 3. Essentially the chipset takes on too high a workload, which then triggers a diagnostic routine, which causes latency spikes and lost packets. Their workaround was to redistribute some of the workload, which has caused other problems related to wi-fi functionality.  Also the workaround was only distributed to top tier 350mbps customers so most users still have the problem. 

Huge posted:

You have a router AND the Superhub?

That's very unusual (unless you have two separate LANs and use a router to connect between them or you have an additional WAN in addition to your internet connection).

Not really I do the same. Superhub is in modem mode only it's the best feature on the device imo. Then  I use a Netgear R8000 as my router and ubiquiti unifi for wireless ap. Virgin hubs are shockingly bad and the WiFi is a joke and I have found all domestic WiFi to suck. 

Frank Yang posted:

Apart from the modem router, which is usually provided by your ISP, I would go for a good Wifi mesh, such as Google Wifi, Netgear Orbi.

Wifi mesh not only provides good wireless connectivity throughout the house, but each wifi mesh device has at least 2 or 4 ethernet ports just in case you want to hard wire your  streamer.

Some of these systems seem to run different vlans for wireless and wired connections though which can cause issues for apps and devices that won't travsere subnets. The orbi in particular does this, choose wisely.

SimonPeterArnold posted:

Frank Yang posted:

Apart from the modem router, which is usually provided by your ISP, I would go for a good Wifi mesh, such as Google Wifi, Netgear Orbi.

Wifi mesh not only provides good wireless connectivity throughout the house, but each wifi mesh device has at least 2 or 4 ethernet ports just in case you want to hard wire your  streamer.

Some of these systems seem to run different vlans for wireless and wired connections though which can cause issues for apps and devices that won't travsere subnets. The orbi in particular does this, choose wisely.

That means there is a problem of configuration, I suspect in this case, there are more than 1 DHCP server.

I have a FritzBox modem/router, and I have to say it is very, very good.  It's one of the most stable modem/routers that I've ever had.  Our previous router, a netgear that was well-regarded, failed after only nine months and Argos (from where we bought it) refused a refund.  Note to self: never buy stuff from Argos!