Speed-dating nDAC

First test:  CD5x vs AirPort Express > toslink to nDAC

Listened to Battlefield Band "Rain, Hail or Shine" (CD vs ALAC) and Willie Nelson "Spirit" (CD vs AIFF).  Almost too close to call!  Slightly more crispness and articulation from nDAC.  CD5x is brilliant.  (NAC 112 adjustable input volume by source is very nice to have for A/B testing.)

Nick

Hi, Simon.

Sorry I omitted you from my roll-call.

No access to a Qute or NDX within 24 hours.  What software would you suggest that might get the job done expediently?  I have two MacBooks running Snow Leopard and Win7, and Lion resp., and a Dell Laptop running Win7, in addition to the fat Intel Mac Pro running Lion and Win Svr.  My goal is simply to make the case for adding the nDAC (and possibly removing the CD5x, which will be hard to part with) based on actual experience in my time-window.  Interesting challenge, no?  I admit I am biased to like the nDAC.  Maybe I don't need to go all the way to uPNP for my purposes.

I also have an M-Audio Firewire Audiophile external interface with RCA S/PDIF out, which might be better than toslink straight out of the MBPro.  Thought I might try BitPerfect if I can stay up that long!

Thanks for your thoughts.

Nick

Ripped WAV of "Putumayo Presents Paris" to iTunes just now; very pretty recording.  Sounds lovely via AE + nDAC.

As we approach Midnight, Pacific Time, the Win Svr 2008 R2 Std VM is up, but I see Asset likes WHS better.  I was unable to successfully create the WHS  VM.  I am using Parallels.

The music sounds so great, I am losing some motivation to go for the uPNP test in the near term.  Maybe testing PureMusic and BitPerfect are better uses of time, given limitations.

Tomorrow, I will load some WAV files on an iPad or iPod Touch and connect direct via USB.  My understanding is that this is a good test, because the nDAC circumvents all but the pure digital signal.

Good night for now.

Nick

> I also have an M-Audio Firewire Audiophile external interface with RCA S/PDIF out, which might be better than toslink straight out of the MBPro. 

Hi Nick

Thank you for your kind words. Very interesting write-up. 

IMHO your M-Audio should significantly improve on Toslink from the MBPro. Apple's implementation of S/PDIF optical out uses a cheap chip from Cirrus Logic which results in fairly high jitter; this is less of an issue with the Naim DAC than some DACs because of its jitter reduction capabilities. However the M-Audio uses Dice II Jet Jitter Elimination, which doesn't eliminate jitter, but certainly lowers it (I think Weiss also uses this). Its use of Firewire also gives it exclusive use of resources on the bus and is better than USB in that respect. So the omens are good: using your M-Audio should make life even easier for your Naim DAC and give you even better sound. I would be very surprised if my V-Link or any of the fancy USB/S-PDIF converters discussed at length on this forum will (could) improve on your M-Audio; in fact quite the opposite if anything I'd expect better sound from your set-up: M-Audio produces excellent kit.   

So definitely worth giving it go. 

All the best, Guy

> Tomorrow, I will load some WAV files on an iPad or iPod Touch and connect direct via USB.  My understanding is that this is a good test, because the nDAC circumvents all but the pure digital signal.

Hi Nick

You could eliminate the Apple rendering software by just using a USB stick in your Naim DAC and Naim's rendering engine will play the WAV file. The results I have got from this are the best I've achieved; it is not the most convenient way to play music, but it is one the best. 

All the best, Guy

Hi Nick -

If you get Asset running under a Windows VM, couldn't you use your Oppo as a UPnP media client?

I haven't looked at the new BDP-95, but my old BDP-83SE had a "Network" option that worked pretty well (assuming you have a monitor attached).

Sounds like you are having fun, and I like your music selections!

Good luck!

Hook

Nick,

I know the Oppo 95 is the audiophile upgraded box ...but, when I got my 83 I tested the Oppo upnp client, and was seriously disappointed, Asset was one of the servers I tested. Hope the 95 has improved on this area as well.

Did a quick check and it appears that you can install WINE on OSX - in which case you could try Asset in a none virtual environment. Asset runs on Linux using WINE.

I got the best results I heard using CMP and a minimal XP build, using a HiFace USB/spdif adapter - but that rules out networking.

Amongst the clients I tried was foobar 2000, which is very configurable, made some notes:

https://forums.naimaudio.com/di...ent/1566878604310558

I'll watch your thread with interest.

M

I have a similar set up - more so when I first got the nDAC ( with CD5 / 112 / FC2).

I played Apple lossless through iTunes and an Airport/toslink into the DAC, and quite honestly, my CD5 sounded slightly better.  Playing WAV files from a memory stick was a different matter.  The DAC was in a different league then.  More of everything (deeper bass, more detail, space).  I'm gradually rebuilding the system around the DAC, which is now linked to an XPS and a Unitiserve.  Next, the pre-amp.

I saw the Airport as the weakest link in my original setup, although I don't want to be too critical since it allowed me to play networked music in the first place some years ago, and that was a great step forward in terms of convenience.

Thanks to all for the thoughtful input.  Much of it impacted my testing in productive ways!

Let me start by saying the nDAC won every test I tried.  Yay, Naim!  Unfortunately, the margin was often frustratingly narrow, and in some surprising situations.  It has not earned a shelf in my set (just yet).  This is not meant to be faint-praise!  Especially for those considering making the nDAC a foundation piece, rather than a CD player, it is an excellent choice and will not disappoint.  I repeat, it won every time, IME.  I have also heard whispers about Naim-brand upgrades that may transform the nDAC from merely a polite winner to something much more compelling.

Guy, 

Thanks for the damn-good advice about copying WAV's to thumb drives.  This truly defined the highest performance with normal CD rips, saved me time, and allowed me to test other important things I might not have gotten to.  I even kind of like the navigation using the front-buttons.  This playback bettered the Airport Express, CD5x, and Oppo, in that order.

“What does he mean, ‘in that order?’” you may rightly ask.

I was surprised to have to rule that my AE, whether toslinked into the nDAC, or using its own cheap DAC straight into the 112 sounded unbelievably good, really; the CD5x + FC2x are still excellent but next in line, and, finally, the Oppo, which sounded pleasingly-better via RCA > coax > BNC to nDAC than RCA analog into the 112.  Still, from best to worst, all sounded pretty good to my ears, which I do have checked reasonably regularly.  I still think the CD5x is a marvel, and love it. 

There are lots of details that may explain the above findings.  There were certainly some flaws in my methods.  Maybe my KEF speakers are a limitation.  Maybe the good ol’ NAC 112 just cannot resolve the differences well enough; or maybe some if the aging s/h kit needs service.  A possible explanation for the success I get with the AE may be that it is Ethernet-wired to the LAN with its WiFi radio disabled, and configured as dedicated to AirPlay-only.  I look forward to any comments.

So what about the M-Audio Fire-wire Audiophile interface?  I connected it to a MBPro, removed the S/PDIF cable from the Oppo and hooked it up to the M-Audio into the nDAC.  Running out of time, I gave it everything I’ve got:  WAV files on a USB HD with iTunes + PureMusic set to Hog Mode, Memory Play, and up-sampling to 88.2.  The HD LED came on on the nDAC, and . . . the same music I had been testing with came on with unbelievably improved SQ!  Better detail, more solid bass, crystal clarity, all of an order of magnitude that made the previous tests seem almost like hair-splitting.  Wow!

Final test: What about the built-in DAC in the M-Audio?  It sounded great, too; again, the nDAC trumped it by a pleasing but not huge margin.  The M-Audio cost $350 four years ago and is discontinued.  (I wonder how their current ProFire 610 might fare?)

I have read many reviews of PureMusic on this forum by deservedly respected contributors; I have been surprised by those who say the differences are inaudible or non-existent.  The setup is fiddly:  Upsampling requires setting the Mac hardware using the advanced MIDI control panel so that inputs and outputs are all at the same rate; AND the interface also has to be set at a matching rate; AND PM has to be set at the matching rate and restarted; and Channel-D recommends that the sound interface have exclusive use of the Fire-wire or USB bus, so external drives have to go on the opposite bus.  I finally got to the Grail after I heeded all of these requirements.  Maybe the Fire-wire interface is the key? 

Fun stuff.  I never got uPNP going, but am happy with what I accomplished.  My excellent Naim dealer, his interest piqued, has offered to supervise another test evening in a few weeks, adding an XPS.

If you made it to the end, thanks for sticking with me.  Stay tuned:   In a future post I will divulge details of flaws with my tests and confess about my crappy cable dressing, etc. 

All the best,

Nick

I was surprised that you found the AE into the 112 to be good.  When I wired the AE straight to my 112 it fell well short of anything going through the DAC and well short of my CD5/FC2-  it sounded lifeless with all the music coming from the midpoint between the speakers. 

However that was using the AE wireless.  I later switched to ethernet with wireless switched off feeding the DAC and haven't bothered to retry it direct to the 112 - maybe I should.  Maybe my AE is just in a noisier RF environment than yours. 

I found MP3 256vbr files straight off my iPhone into the DAC sounded significantly better than the AE into the 112.  With Apple lossless music from either the iPhone or the AE the sound was as good as the CD5/FC. Well - actually it was different, with Apple/nDAC having more resolution and clarity, but the CD5 having more body and presence about it.  But as I said before WAV (or FLAC) into the DAC from the memory stick was much better.  Whereas with the CD5 I would be looking for music like Paul Simon's Graceland where you could follow interesting individual music instruments, with the WAV/DAC, I found myself looking for music with lots of atmospherics and space around them.

Adding the XPS wasn't night and day for me - although it was worthwhile and I am glad I have got it.  It made the sound smoother and more natural and deepened the bass.  I lost a bit of brightness which overall was good, but maybe it lost a bit of that spaciness.

On the 112/FC - obviously it's not the last word in pre-amps - but its still good, especially with a FC or a HC.  I have found it capable of showing up differences in sources, though I think it is next target on my own upgrade path.

If you go down the DAC route, you will probably spend the next couple of years pondering how best the feed the DAC.  Unitiserve?  Unitiqute?  NDX?  Wait for a XS style NDX?  This is frustratingly confusing.

I ended up with a UnitiServe, which gives SQ equal to or better than memory sticks but so much easier, and I am very happy with it.

Martin

It's easy to attribute things to existing components and sometimes this is correct. More than once I've been caught in my own upgrade whirlwind as changing one thing opens the door to changing other things. If you are happy with how your system sounded before your DAC experiments you have to keep your cynical hat firmly in place. I know this is easier said than done.

I've been very interested to hear your findings so far. I don't understand a lot of the technical terminology but I can relate to the musical impressions. I look forward to reading how things develop.

Uh-oh.....hide your wallet!    

But seriously, IME, the XPS2 and 555PS have been real game changers!

It was very hard for me to initially get my head around the idea of a PS upgrade costing more (and sometimes a lot more) than the original component.    But once I heard how they transformed the DAC, the price of PS upgrades made more sense to me (as did the price of the PL and HL upgrades).

Good luck Nick.  Glad to see you are enjoying the process!

Hook

It's true. You can have three levels of DAC all out of the same box. Is the top level running at 500 or S level? Probably somewhere in between.

Hi, Martin,

After initially setting up the CD5x et al and loving the way it sounds, I took it as a matter of universal fact that the AE could not compete, and didn't give it a critical test until compelled by the nDAC audition -- and embarrassing failure of objectivity on my part.  Added to that, I had never ripped a WAV file before yesterday.  I look at the result as a win-win:  either my AE unit is a freak (in a good way), or there is vast untapped potential left in the rest of my kit, which my friendly dealer may help me discover when he comes over.

Other than that, it sounds like your impressions align similarly with mine.  Thanks for your remarks.

Nick

Harry,

Thanks for the encouragement.  I can see how one can get carried away, and how a balanced system can be like a house of cards if you play too much with the wrong elements. 

"I don't understand a lot of the technical terminology but I can relate to the musical impressions."

 

I did a poor job of explaining the PureMusic test.  I will take some more time with it later to explain it better and, more importantly, test the various elements individually to learn which are most important.  For now, this combination gives me the best sound I have heard from my Naim kit.

Nick

Guy,

Your remarks on the USB to S/PDIF thread at

https://forums.naimaudio.com/di...ent/7902617944272462

" I'm now of the opinion that the best SQ is using achieved by feeding the data stream over IP into a Naim streamer/DAC or another quality streamer/Naim DAC."

I want to hear the Qute and compare to my M-Audio lash-up.  The only fly in the ointment for me is that unless I want to replace the 112/150 with the Qute, using it optimally attached to the 112 requires attaching it to AV with Unity Gain, which I am already using with my AV system.  No doubt the Qute user experience will be a lot better. 

I know you, Hook, and others have left the computers behind after a lot of experience. I will continue to gear up toward a working uPNP lab in the coming weeks; and, maybe the Oppo gives me a surrogate until I can try the Naim stuff.

Nick

Hi, Simon,

I did install BitPerfect and agree it is very easy/pleasant to use, though I have only listened to it through laptop speakers so far.  Will be interesting to compare with PM, especially considering the good results I get with that program. 

Nick

Mr. Underhill,

Wine sounds worth a try.  Thanks!

Nick