"there are a lot of things that can ruin the rip."

If you can hear the difference between your AC/DC CD when ripped with a Naim ripper vs dBpoweramp then you're a better man than I (to quote the Yardbirds). 

Handling the metadata is a different matter, but an accurate rip is an accurate rip.

Even it was not bit perfect I doubt anybody could tell them apart by listening. If the CD is damaged then this is obvious at playback time as Christy Moore sounds like Max Headroom. 

Don't be fooled by the hype; you can't rip better than perfect. 

I've seen test results from using different transports with CD Paranoia and the PCM (Music) content of the rips was the same. There were some concerns over the offset with very cheap drives, but not much problem during playback. 

And just to be even more controversial, despite what some contributors say, I cannot not hear the difference between two identical files played back on the same system.

I could never get Twonky to work, but I installed on a Mac - the UPnP server on a Vortexbox works splendidly, but sorry I don't know if it'll work on QNAP NAS. Also I don't use WAV so this makes a difference as other formats are better with Tags (WAV is probably the most problematic). However, I'm sure others have had success with WAV so it can be done. 

I'm sure the Naim ripper does a great job, but then so do many many other rippers - except possibly Jack.

All the best, Guy 

By the way - who makes the best sounding USB sticks? 

It all depends on their colour.

There have been a number of threads on this topic, including this one:

https://forums.naimaudio.com/di...054#4945617437691054

Take note of Jack's post quoting Phil Harris.

Hook

If you believe to marketing bullcrap to sell you more stuff, yes.

I would infer the opposite; that Naim players can't correctly play perfectly decent rips from other sources.

I don't think Paul is saying here that the Naim rippers will always give you a better result than can be achieved through using a decent drive and software such as EAC or DBPoweramp, just that it's sometimes easy to cock things up - and here the Naim rippers make life easy for you.  Hell, I use both EAC and DBPA and even I cocked things up after a reinstall one a new computer.  I'd left the settings at their default by accident.  And let's not forget there are plenty of people out there using other rippers or just using the default burst-mode settings and not realising that they could get a better "more accurate" result by other means. The Naim ripping engine allows Naim to set a known standard over which they have a degree of control, and that's important when you're selling streamers.

As an aside, the thing that really sorts the wheat from the chaff is where you have a real problem disc and a totally accurate rip is not possible.  I have a few of these, whether because of pressing faults, discs being out of red-book standard, copy protection systems, or just plain old scratches, here, the optimisation of drive, environment and software is critical in getting the best result.  I'm sure most computer audio savvy users would be able to do a good job here, but most wouldn't know what to do.  Again, the Naim ripper makes this easy.

In actual fact, Paul has indeed claimed that Naim rips outperform dBpoweramp and EAC rips. He said  ".. naim rip via our server easy db and eac good but our rip and our drive choice usually outperforms"

See here:

https://forums.naimaudio.com/di...ent/3960068604537349

Still waiting for him to produce such a rip though, or any evidence whatsoever that dBpoweramp or EAC rip incorrectly.

Meantime my conclusion can only be that Naim players have a problem with otherwise perfectly correct non-naim rips.

I guess it's possible, what Paul asserts, and would probably depend on how metadata may (or may not) affect the file.  The only like for like comparison I have done was between a straight WAV rip via EAC with no metadata and a WAV rip with full metadata via DBpoweramp.  If pushed I'd say I marginally preferred the EAC, but it was close.  Interesting that this concurred with a couple of others who tried the same.  Heaven knows why this should be, and for a while I thought it must juyst be my imagination.  Theoretically both music files were the same, only difference being the Metadata.  Knowing that the Naim ripper is has similarities to EAC, could it be the way that Metadata is handled that makes the difference?  I don't know.  I'll have to compare a Naim ripped file against the others sometime. 

Just so you know, I use DBpoweramp to rip to WAV with rich metadata...

Richard - I don't think many would say Naim hasn't a good fool proof solution for people who would prefer not to use a computer (that is visibly a computer) to rip CDs, but that is differnt from saying Naim rips are better from a purity pont of view. In fact having used UnitServe, I do have reservations on Naims' strategy on ripping damaged CDs , but I guess this is not the right forum for me discussing that to any extent - so lets just say I prefer to use dBpoweramp

Richard - just read you last mail. Fascinating. when I last checked EAC it used the canocial WAV encoding format, and Naim and dBPoweramp use the extendible format of WAV. Therefore slightly different execution paths are required to decode each. Now I have no idea of the code, whetehr there are two different decoing algorthms, or its one algorithm that parse different formats by decoding each chunk data type.

However if you and few others prefer EAC then this might point to decoding variation - which if I am correct is done in the streaming board, and again the ND5 and NDX upgrade boards might improve this area. This is similar to FLAC to the WAV sonic differences but less apparent.

But this is WAV or stream decoding variation and NOT ripping variation.

Simon

The same data should sound the same, regardless of differences in encoding format, metadata packaging or compression algorithm. End of story.  If the boards involved aren't up to the job, then fix them.

Likesmusic, i guess most would agree with you, but in the real world things aren't always quite as we expect or want. I guess a subtle sound variation or preference doesnt point to a fault as such, as the decoding works. However I am sure Naim from a consistency point of view would prefer to iron out any subtle sonic differences if they can. Having said that THERE ARE FAULTS with the current streaming boards that we are waiting for a fix for, specifically codec identification and more importantly instability with encapsalated album art of greater than 500x500 pixels in the WAV file, and to be honest if someone went to trading standards over this last point  - I suspect they would be within their rights to raise a complaint about lack of fix thus far or a advice from Naim on how to mitigate the NDX crashing.

It will be interesting to hear whether sonic differences of FLAC decoding are removed with new streaming boards as well.

Simon

Simon, when I did the tests it was through computer hiface into nDAC and through USB stick into nDAC.

My NDX hasn't crashed once yet in spite of everything I've thrown at it.  Crossed fingers.  Having said that, when I try to stream 24/96 wirelessly and operate n-Stream, things go a bit pear shaped and get a bit stuck, but I think that's a limitation of the wireless network itself rather than anything within the NDX.

Richard - do you still have your EAC preference if straming the WAV file into the NDX? We don't know if Naim uses the same wave / flac decoding code in the nDAC as NDX.

About the crashing - all I can say its there... and I can only stop it by taking all emebedded album art out of the FLAC and WAV files and I am fine. I know my dealer had expierienced this with the NDX as well as I expierieinced frequent crashes when auditioning the NDX until I realized the album art bug.

So now its only if I get a hidef dlownloads and forget to manually edit the files to remove the album art do I crash the NDX now I have taken those steps, and its a power cycle to fix it - although the automation/navigation still works, you get a message unable to decode file format, no matter what you then send it.

Simon

Simon,

no I haven't done a comparison via the NDX. 

Interesting about the album art.  I haven't had a single issue streaming DBpoweramp ripped WAVs with 500x500 artwork via Asset into the NDX.  I don't have many hi-res downloads, but the few I do have in FLAC are all OK too.  I'll let you know if anything crops up.

On a slightly different tack, every time I read arguments over file accuracy, I do wonder whether the right question is being asked, i.e. is strict accuracy actually necessary or even desirable?  Before you all spit your tea over the keyboard in shock and disgust, let me elaborate.  We all have a number of of discs (a great number in my case) that have been emasculated at some point during the mastering, whether by excessive peak limiting, compression or just plain poor production choices.  Now, if you were to take a totally accurate rip of that CD, you're still left with the same thing, an emasculated overly compressed and limited copy.  Now, what if you could take that and undo some of the damage that has been done.  With DSP it's not beyond the realms of possibility.  The proof would be in the result - if it sounds better then surely it is better.

Now none of this has anything to do with Naim or their ripping strategy ( indeed possibly has more relevance at the file reading and processing stage), so forgive me, but it does open the possibility for progress in digital way beyond the accepted belief that the digital file as presented and released is as far as it goes once total accuracy is acheived.  I guess all I'm saying is that strict accuracy is a double edged sword and may not always be the best answer.  Food for thought anyway...

Thanks Richard, my keyboard needed cleaning anyway...

"Now what if we could take that and undo some of the damage that has been done. With DSP it's not beyond the realms of possibility" 

You wouldn't happen to be associated with Richard Burwen by any chance  ?

Jan

Ha Ha!  No, not all...  That's something quite different, an answer looking for a problem perhaps.  I mean if you really want MP3s to sound better, just avoid MP3s...

I'm just airing a few thoughts on the whole "accuracy" debate, not specifically aiming at accurate rips, but in accuracy in general as a total end game in audio.  Accuracy to what?  If it's to what a lot of current CD mastering engineers are trying to achieve, is that best capturing the spirit and essence of the performance as a whole?  Is there a way to unravel some of their manipulation to achieve a better and more satisfying result?

The DSP thing is a hot topic among a lot of digital engineers.  The problem is knowing how to make it work across the board.  Maybe impossible, or at least not yet possible.  But I wouldn't be surpised if we start seeing a great deal of progress made here in the future.

I don't like getting too stuck on minutiae.  I like to consider the whole picture.

seriously?

SJB

Richard, this point was behind osme earlier posts I did in August. This area has been a hot topic for years. Digial encoding of a continous analogue signal is a compromise. Turning that digital signal back to an analogue one is another compromise, fraught with pit falls. The transfer functoin filter and the and the anti aliasing strategies being critical and important respectively. However the transfer function is an approximation and these days tends to be done in DSP where it is easier to manipulate. This will affect how the analogue signal is reconstituted from the discrete samples. By adjusting this filter you can affect the frequency response of the analogue signal. A heavily processed compressed file digitised can have have a lot of jhgh frequency content at quite high enery levels, that can be improved by rolling the  higher frequencies off, but an ambient classical signal ditised might suffer from this hf attenation and deaden it.

There are other manipulations once can do such as to increase stereo seperation and forwardness by gently increasing the mid frequenceis etc, eq, companding - you name it. All of this could improve a particualar recording but make others sound dire. Also of course oversampling can reduce the power level of digital noise in the original ditization of the recording. There is loads you can do.  Hence why i would like to see switchable DSP filters in future DACs. The one size fits all is too limiting and too much of a compromise.

BTW use 750x750 or 1000x1000 album art and see if the stability remains.

Simon

Can Naim unscramble omelettes to make chickens?