A sound conundrum, can you help?

Hi Peter

I wonder if Foobar/UPnP is really the cause of the difference - could it be that the PSU in your computer or other elements in your computer inject more noise in to the UQ than your NAS. 

I believe this is why my Vortexbox gives a cleaner sound than my Apple Music Server although in my case the connection methods are different because I can't get reliable UPnP under OSX. 

In my case I know the streams produced are the same bits as I've captured them so it must something else that is causing the difference. I'd wager that I'd get the same result with Foobar/UPnP (can't try it I'm afraid as I don't have any Windows computers except my work one and I'd get shot if I loaded anything on that). 

If you computer can run off a battery (laptop) try that and see if it improves things.

I don't like PC power supplies or Apple ones (PRC made SMPS), but I may be overstating their effect. 

If you are looking for a stand-alone player I'd urge you try the Votexbox, it's free software so you could try it and just throw it if you didn't like it, If you did then you could create or buy an appliance. The advantage over OSX or Windows is that Vortexbox is built to play music rather than as multipurpose OS. In many ways you want an old fashioned single tasking computer that just plays music, the VB isn't quite that, but pretty close. 

All the best, Guy

By using Kernel streaming or ASIO, this is how you will obtain a playback from your computer audio pretty similar to what you get from UnitiQute's direct playback.

With your actual settings, it seems to me that your music files are going throught Windows Kmixer plus at least two layers of codecs and probably an upsampling process to finally find the exit to your home network hardware. Phew! It gives little to none for imagination why it sounds bad, buddy.

Get to know what is Kernel streaming and how to use it with Foobar, and your efforts will be highly rewarded.

Good luck.

Bye.

Thanks chaps for your replies, I appreciate your efforts.

Hi James…….Yes they are the same files, I have 2 NAS drives with exactly the same files stored on both, the sound is degraded whichever drive I use.

I cannot use wireless of any kind (the board has been removed from the Qute) this is why I have to use a computer that draws the files from the NAS and plays via UPnP to the Qute. The alternative is to use the remote and Qute screen which is giving us the best sound by quite a margin, but we have a high proportion of classical music the tags of which are impossible to read on the screen due to their length.

Hi Guy…….I feel sure you are right to query Foobar/UPnP being the problem. Although I am not as knowledgeable as many of you chaps, I just can’t see how/why if would be. I was very wary of asking for advice as I do not wish to start another - this program is better that that program - along the lines of the ripping argument we have already had.  

Your power supply suggestion is I would think much more likely to be a suspect. I do have both a desktop and netbook set up to run Foobar, not sure that I have tried running on batteries so will try that later.

I have been following both your and Togs enthusiasm for Vortexbox. This is I believe based on the same miniDVLA that my Readynas is running, though much improved I would imagine. I do not have a spare machine to try it on at this time having dumped what I had a while ago. One of the advantages of Foobar is that it will transcode to WAV and can also be set to play 192kHz files at 96kHz which has been useful.

Hi Stoik………I have in fact installed the Kernel Streaming Output plug-in in Foobar, but to be honest I could not see how to use it bearing in mind that I am not using local playback but streaming out via UPnP. I have set the volume controls to maximum in the Master Volume control panel as I have read that this helps avoid the windows internals affecting the sound. I don’t know if the computers sound system is having any influence over the stream from Foobar when used in this way. Would be interested in your thoughts on this.

I am not very good at describing sound, but would say that the difference in the sound we hear is similar to removing the PS from the nDAC or even removing the nDAC altogether. Quite a significant and obvious change.

Thanks again for your help, I will post again once I have tried and/or looked again at your suggestions.

Regards

Peter    

Hi Peter -

If I understand you correctly, you are saying that the Qute is playing the same exact file from the exact same UPnP server (your computer running Foobar with a UPnP plug-in), and that the only difference is how you choose the song to play (using Foobar as a control point versus using the Qute's remote control as a control point)?

If that is what you are saying, then I have absolutely no idea what could possibly be causing the music to sound different.   Either control point should be requesting the same data to be delivered from the exact same server using the exact same protocol.   Now, if you had said that using the Qute's remote sounded worse, I may have speculated (and I know this will sound silly) that the Qute's IR processing somehow introduced some noise into the playback circuitry.   Problem is, you are saying the opposite.

Only thing I can think of is to make absolutely sure that the Qute is connecting to one and only one UPnP server.  Otherwise, perhaps other Qute owners can try to recreate what you are hearing.

Good luck.

Hook

Why exactly do you need to do your playback throught Foobar, due to the actual media type limitations of the UntiQute? (I.E. It can't play ALAC or music files over 24/96)

If so, why don't you swap the Qute for a Serve? That will allow you to fully control it with the Naim web interface, Naim Ipad app, and will eliminate all files playback support and limitations up to 24/192.

I'm using a SB Touch, I'm using it with it's own software and it sound good this way. I reckon the uPnP is a pretty cool feature, allowing about every Naim client or server to be used with 3rd party softwares. But when it's time to reach maximum performance, why not simply use the right tool to do the right job?

Maybe Naim will work on uPnP optimisations for 3rd party softwares one day, but in the meanwhile...

Bye.

pls give us a screen shot of your Foobar UPNP settings.

asio/ks have no relevance with upnp streaming

Is it worth trying J River MediaCenter as a UPnP server - just to see if foobar is the problem.  It's free for 30 days .. Or Asset UPnP ...

Hello Hook.......Yes exactly, all files are on the NAS, I would like to use Foobar (or similar) running on a Netbook to select our music. As explained above control point software does not work. Asset CP crashes and locks up the computer, Kinsky will play the 1^st track and then stops. I believe this is because the Qute is not responding to the CP as expected due to the missing part.

I like you cannot explain why there is a difference, but is very noticeable.
My intention was to have a passive PC built to run only Foobar using the NAS files, but have pulled back on this until I sort out the problem.

Thanks again
Peter

Hello again Stoik……. Mainly we would like to use Foobar for convenience and because of the small screen on the Qute, we just can’t read the track info especially on classical tracks.

The Qute was initially bought for use in second room. Never having used streaming before it was a shot in the dark as to whether or not it would be any good, we only stream now.

The problem with the serve as I see it is that by retaining the Qute in the second room and Dig out to the nDAC, (1) we would need to use one program (DTC) to control the local stream and (2) we would still need another program to control the Qute (3) we loss the tuner function. There is also the question of whether the Serve Dig out is as good as it should be. We are ready to spend a few £000 more but would like to gain a little in doing so. Our preference having only heard the various options at the Summer Sounds event is for the NDX, but having read the recent press report from the Milan show about the new streaming boards it is unclear to me if it will be possible to remove the wireless section; I will need to ask Naim once the new version is available.

As to your last point……unlikely I think.

Thanks again
Peter


Hi Patrick.......I hoped you might add your thoughts, thanks, screenshot attached, trust it is what you intended.
Thanks for clarifying the ASIO/KS issue, I could not see have to use these but could easily have been wrong.

Edit: Sorry for poor image quality, took ages to work out how to do it' if no good will try again.

Regards,

Peter

Hi likesmusic.......I have tried them both and they are great programs.

This is a problem that has been nagging at me for sometime, but I never did the test, didn’t want to find it was real I suppose.

I will try them again though as I try and work through this, but I can’t see/don’t believe it is a problem with the program, other than a setting of some kind.

Many thanks
Peter

Hi James…..There is not any transcoding apart from flac to WAV on files up to 96kHz, confirmed by the Qute screen readout. The image as posted is poor quality; I also look forward to Patricks comments, though anyone’s thoughts are welcome of course.

Regards

Peter

Hi Alamanka……Thanks for your comments. There should not be any differences as you have found which make it hard to fathom. I will switch off the transcoding flac to WAV as you suggest, and try that. It is on the redbook files that I have tried, but thanks for suggestions.

Regards

Peter

I checked my Foobar configuration: same as in picture above except

- Samplerate range 44100 to 44100

- Max bit depth: 16 bits.

Regards,