CD alternative ?

Hi Luka,

An alternative might be to get a Squeezebox Touch. Price is around € 200,-
(well, here in Holland that is)  It's a simple way to stream music in flac through your system.

You'd then have the convenience and comfort similar to a CDX2, due to the fact that you can control the SB Touch by either its supplied IR remote or with an Apple device, using the free remote apps.

If you then hook it up to a Naim dac you'd have a wonderful source.

Not sure if it's at CDX2 level though. Would be an interesting comparison imho.

regards,

Alco

Rod - Laptop, Hallide Bridge (a cable that has a USB at the computer end and S/PDIF connector the Naim end), Naim DAC in to your system will do what you want 

All the best, Guy

Luka,

I think you are very wise to hold fire at present. I have come to the same conclusion after researching the various streaming/hard disc replay options. Things are in a constant state of flux - the technology  IMO is a very long way off becoming stable. Any investment now is likely to be rendered virtually redundant in a few years time, such is the rate of change we are seeing. Fine if you've got the money to spare and can afford to update your set-up as things progress, but that is not an option for me. I need to buy something that will see me through many years without becoming obsolete.

Peter

True, but I think any computer/digital music investment of the present will be obsolete in a couple of years time.  The only way to truly beat this is to never do anything!  If you can get a good bit-perfect rip/source with an NDAC I don't see why it wouldn't match a CDX2 (the NDAC D/A converter is better than the CDX2 and the analog boards should be equivalent or better).  The biggest struggle I have, being an old timer, is managing the music on my HDX.  I don't have an iphone, don't have a networked computer in the same room as the Hi Fi system and miss the physical involvement of opening up a jewel case or record album and spinning the old disk manually!

Keith

Keith,

I think what you say about computers is absolutely right. Also, as you say, the only way ultimately to avoid an investment becoming redundant is to do nothing. I am an old timer as well, but I am not afraid to embrace new technology when I can see clear benefits - hence I ditched LP replay years ago as soon as an acceptable CD player appeard that I could afford (a Naim CDI). My main concern is that as yet no clear high quality music carrier format for the future has been defined, and I think that when it is it will be decided by the music/record industry rather than the hi-fi industry. At the moment the opposite seems to be the case. Hi-fi manufacturers are getting carried away by hard disc/streaming, even though as yet most music can only be purchased on CD!!! It is a kind of half-way house or hybrid technology. When music stops being sold on CD in favour of some other format, that, IMO, is the time to act, in clear knowledge of what the new format is. Of course in the meantime if people have the money to experiment with hard disc/streaming then there's no harm in that. I just wonder how many such set-ups will look awfully ancient and "yesterday's technology" in say five years time. As I say, if money is not a particular concern then no problem at all, you merely update your set-up as new technology appears. For me, I need to be careful. I cannot afford to make an investment now that may be obsolete in as little as five years. So I am prepared to play the waiting game and stick with CD, which for me presents no problems at all!

Peter

We are in a numbers game at this time - just as happened with CD - do you remember those early Philips player were 14 bit with 4 bit oversampling then it was 16 bit then 16 bit with oversampling then HDCD then up-sampling then DVD-A, DTS, SACD and ,,, 

Now we have discussions about ALAC, FLAC, WAV, AIFF, 24 bit, 16 bit, 88.2, 44.1 ... 192 ... return of the son of the number game

It is no different from the Fe, Chrome, Ferri-Chrome, Metal, Dolby B, Dolby C, Dolby HX and DNR (remember that 

And none of them sound better than a £400 Sony Cassette Deck using Dolby S on Metal Tapes.

However, it is, as they say progress, and definitely not record companies trying to make us buy all the same music again in another format. I'm not swapping my one and only 8-Track. 

My view a a good (bit-perfect) rip/source with an Naim DAC is adequate to play music and make it as enjoyable as vinyl (well almost) or cassette (well almost). 

I'm not convinced it needs to be bit perfect as my favourite digital sources are not - they commit heresy and up-sample. 

Computers are always getting better (I know it is true the adverts say so). They get faster processers: the software is not as quick because in the good old days programs like Word Perfect for Amiga were written in machine code and ran like a rocket, now programs like Word are written in high-level languages and call other programs, which call other programs .... 

So I echo the words of the great late Robert Calvert

Welcome to the oceans in a labeled can,
Welcome to the dehydrated lands,
Welcome to the self police parade,
Welcome to the neo-golden age,
Welcome to the days you've made
You are welcome

OK, a bit too gloomy and now is as good a time to take the plunge as any 'cos tomorrow's just another day

All the best, Guy  

Hi Peter,

I don't agree with your premise that things are too fluid and your best to wait.

I think that digitising your music to the highest standard now IS the future carrier. The issue is, perhaps, the speed of hardware change.

But even here, PCM ain't goin' to get much better than 192/24, or even 96/24, for some time to come.

I have had my nDAC since they came out, and the NS01 for the best part of a year - and I don't anticipate changing either for the next five years, or more.

The only thing I will do is expand my storage. But currently ALL my digitised music will fit on a 1TB HDD, and I have dual 2TB discs, and storage on a single disc is expanding all the time - and of course we may go solid state in the not too distant future.

I could have just stuck with a Laptop and HDD, which gave very acceptable results, as long as I didn't use networking, which made changing music akin to changing an LP.

But, the great thing about getting into digital is that you can get great results for a comparatively small outlay, and then use your ripped media as you move up whichever streaming path you choose to adopt.

Cheers,

Martin

> PCM ain't goin' to get much better than 192/24, or even 96/24, for some time to come.

True, but it won't stop somebody saying their new 384/32 is even better and making some consumers feel they have been left behind. 

I think Peter is saying he's happy with his CD Player, which is, of course, fine, but I agree with you as there is absolutely no reason not digitise now if you feel the inclination I have, but still use cassettes and vinyl as well (perhaps I'll grow out of it). 

All the best, Guy

Guy,

I agree, whatever source that gets you off, I just wouldn't advise not to move into digital music on the basis that things are changing and getting, perhaps, better - I wonder if I've still got my ZX80 in the loft?

M

Guy and Martin,

It's a democracy here in Britain (on paper at least - though certain events can easily lead one to a different conclusion) and you are right - there's no reason not to embrace the new technology now if you feel the inclination to for whatever reason. If I had plenty of spare cash I might be tempted to experiment and dip my toes in the water, except that I'm perfectly happy with CD and I can't honestly perceive any advantage in hard disc or streaming (quite the opposite). So for me at least, it makes sense to wait. You may ask "Wait for what?" The simple answer is that I don't know, and I'm not sure anybody is in a position to know at present. What I do find puzzling is that the entire concept of hard disc replay/streaming seems to revolve primarily around the premise that it is infinitely more convenient than CD. I just don't see it, try as I might. And since when did hi-fi buffs concern themselves with convenience? Sound quality has always been the driving force, and convenience has historically been sneered at as being irrelevant. I cannot help but see an element of "The Emperor's New Clothes" here. I think it is far from being established that computer/hard disc sources offer better sound quality in absolute terms or indeed better value for money than CD. There are conflicting reports - with some people moving back to CD replay after a while with hard disc. So that's my take on the whole thing. It's a very personal view of course, and I don't expect or even want everyone to agree with me. At the end of the day, you pays your money and takes your choice!

Cheers,

Peter

Hi all

I may be in a good position to comment on the realtive merits of both formats under discussion here.

I had been using a CD5XS for a couple years and, after upgrading from the XS amp to a 282/200, I felt the need to improve my source.

On my dealers recomendation, I home demd the nDAC for a week using Naim's digital cable to pass the data from my cd player. This combo didn't do it for me: for sure a lot more detail came through but some of the musical  fluency seemed to disappear.

Next, I did a side-by-side comparison of the CDX2 and the NDX at my dealers. I found them to be voiced quite differently. I wasn't expecting the CDX2 to be significantly better than my CD5XS but from the first note its increased speed and bigger sound were obvious and quite appealing. Playing the same tracks on the NDX (ripped from a unitiserve) brought a kind of sophistication to the sound of  the music which made it both interesting and easy to follow albeit with the loss of some of the X2's drama. The NDX certainly sounded softer to my ears.

I had a decision to make and, with future-proofing in mind, I went home with the streamer. The internet radio facility was an instant hit and ditto the DAC hooked up to my TV. Formula 1 never sounded so good. On the downside though, I found reorganising my living room to accomodate the extra ethernet cables and place my computer in suitable spot a bit of a chore. After ripping twenty or so of my favourite discs, it sounded pretty much as I remembered from the dealers. I personaly found that the ripping process, the retreival of album information and the way the various servers displayed their libraries was  a bit hit and miss. I was also frustrated by the internet radio drop outs and by the inability to use the DAC for hidef TV viewing but worst of all I was just not listenning to my music collection much.

So after a couple of months living with the NDX, instead of buying an accompanying dedicated hard drive for storage and the obligatory iPad, I  went back to my dealer and was lucky in being able to trade it in for an ex dem CDX2. Eversince, I have been like a tramp on chips - feverishly working my way through the CDs I had recently been neglecting and enjoying the liveliness of  the presentation.

This doesn't mean that I think the NDX is a bad product. Its morelike, at present I just don't have the time or inclination to invest time in computer audio when the CD format is so well established. Others will reach exactly the opposite answer to the same question, so its probably horses for courses in the world of high fidelity music playback at the moment.

ATB

Ray 

I can relate to thebigfredc's story. Ran an HDX side by side with a CDX2 for half a year and decided to stick with the CD player for pretty much the same reasons. 

Cheers,

EJ 

Ihau,

Your comment on scrolling through a music collection on an iPad being better than taking a CD off the shelf is exactly the sort of thing that leaves me deeply puzzled! Is it really easier/better? I find that walking to my CD rack and selecting a disc to play is simplicity itself, and very quick. On the other hand, finding a piece of music that I have on Windows Media Player (independant of my hi-fi) is rather more involved - boot up the PC, open the player, start searching....... The other comment, that one tends to listen to forgotten music more with hard disc, is another puzzlement to me. If the CD's are there in your rack, what's to stop you from playing them!!!!! No offence meant with any of this - I know some forum members have implemented hard disc/computer replay extremely successfully for themselves. It's just that as you can see, I simply don't "get" where the supposed convenience of hard disc replay comes in. All I can see is fiddling and hassle..... 

Peter

> Your comment on scrolling through a music collection on an iPad being better than taking a CD off the shelf is exactly the sort of thing that leaves me deeply puzzled! 

It is if you left your Joan Armtrading CD in the car when it went off for a service;

the old empty jewel case syndrome  

(Now who did that was it me, myself or I?) 

The Sonos makes it dead easy once set-up, but it is not without its idiosyncrasies and mine didn't work first time. I needed to swap the supplied Ethernet cable with another one I had, but the supplied one worked fine connecting a laptop to my router. 

It was no more difficult than getting a Naim CDX2 to work though with its link plugs and power supply options.

Of course without a network and Internet connection Computer Audio would have been a non-starter. 

It is not as easy or as high quality as a well recorded Dolby S Metal Cassette with HX Pro and correct azimuth, bias and equalisation, but then very little is. 

There is no right or wrong about any of this; what is best is a matter of opinion, isn't it always. 

In the end somebody else will decide - either CDs and vinyl records will survive or it'll be iTunes or Amazon downloads only - of course, artists could sell their own music (Karine Polwart, HMHB and M+tM do this). 

All the best, Guy

Have to agree with Peter on this one.

Initially, streaming wirelessly was fine because I could leave my laptop in its usual place where it got charged and was comfortable to use. However, once I went to wired ethernet for max performance entailed unplugging my laptop from the mains and moving it to the other side of the room where eventually the battery would die. I also had to change its power settings to stop it from switching off and, worse of all, its hard drive crashed terminally which meant buying a new laptop.

Events such as this spoiled the NDX ownership experience for me and, at one point, I considered getting a Unitiserve to overcome these problems but even then I believe some form of back-up is required. The logic of this is that I would have three versions of the same piece of music (1 x CD, 2 x ripped), two of which may disappear at any moment depending on the whim of a hard drive whereas the discs are there forever. And, as mentioned earlier, in my set up it took more effort to get the music flowing from my streamer than it did a cd player.

ATB

Ray

Hi lhau

Yes I think lifestyle plays a part for choosing streaming, in so much as if, for example, you work from home and have a computer on all day or perhaps you just enjoy using computers.

Ultimately though the arbiter in the format wars should be sound quality and as I posted earlier the CDX2 and NDX sounded different from one another rather than one clearly being better than the other. Hi-res material has the possibility to change that but presently its availabilty is poor imho.

ATB

Ray

You will "get it" someday.  Dont worry.  Also dont fear that which you dont know.

The thing behind "finding new music" is this....  When you stroll up to your CD shelves you can only choose one CD to put in the player.  Then you tend to stick with this for a bit.

With hard disk replay you have the entire collection at your call. You may be prompted to listen to something else because of some referential impetus.  You may simply see something in the list while scrolling around.  Add a song to the end of the queue?  Done.  Add a single song as "next" without replacing the queue?  Done.  Add and entire CD to the queue?  Done.  Shuffle the playlist?  Done.  Look up a wiki bio to see what album the artist released next?  Done.  Lyrics?  Done.

Seems convenient to me.  Walking up, selecting one disc, then doing it all over again after a few songs doesn't.

-p

PS - remember we have ALL done vinyl, cassette, and CD replay.  Now we have embraced ripped file replay.  If we deem it convenient (as well as superior and fun}, you at least have to respect our opinions as being educated.

We played with Steely Dan Gaucho on Saturday. Now this is a very well produced album indeed. USB stick 24/96, MoFi Gold pressing CD and vinyl. CD5XS direct into nDAC, USB direct into nDAC, Michell Gyro/Michell Tonearm/Dynavector 10x5 into Dynavector P75 phono stage.

The least musical was the USB stick, next came the CD and finally came the vinyl. I could appreciate how some might have preferred the CD over the vinyl, but either way, the supposedly superior hi-res download sounded harder and spittier than the CD, as well as lacking the sense of progression and flow that we got from the disc players.

I'm not convinced about this new tech.

Regards,
Frank.
All opinions are my own and do not reflect the opinion of any organisations I work for, except where this is stated explicitly.

I certainly don't have any lack of respect for those that have chosen the hard disc/streaming route. As I said, I am aware that a number of forum members have gone down this road and have never looked back. My views are entirely personal - at present CD represents the best option for me. Mr. Underhill, I had to laugh at your comment that you don't think a lot of spare cash is needed! We must have very differing views on what is meant by "a lot" in relation to money!!!!  It's fascinating as always to hear different people's opinions on the whole issue. Will we ever get complete agreement - I doubt it! At the end of the day there is a very complex web of factors, including personal ones, which influence our decisions on things like this. What I do maintain is that I think the jury is still very much out on what the future of music replay at home will be, and what may seem to be "cutting edge" now may well look old hat in a very few years time. Of course it is not mandatory to be at the forefront of technology with anything. Actually there is a kind of calming satisfaction from not being so, and knowing that despite this you still get immense enjoyment from what you have.

Peter

Hi Peter,

I always accepted you did, I just opened above in a way to try and stimulate some back and forth debate. I certainly never meant to come across as having a pop at your perfectly reasonable point of view, although one that I don't share.

I agree that if you want to go down the Naim streaming route you need a shed load of cash. My comment above, expanded, should have read:

You don't need to spend the sorts of money that Naim asks for its equipment to get a damn good result for a modest outlay.

By this I mean that if you have, or buy, an old laptop and a Musical Fidelity VDAC, for example, and set the laptop up with CMP2, you will get an incredible result for relative peanuts.

When I compared such a laptop via the bare nDAC, I think - may have been an nDAC+PS555, to a CD555 plus dual PS555s the CDP was better, but it was by a smidgen, and something I would not notice without doing a back to back comparison.

I was discussing this thread with a friend of mine at lunch. We have both worked in IT, essentially, for years. I was commenting that, in order to get the best and most flexible use from a range of consumer products, a knowledge of ethernet and networking were starting to become de rigueur.

Happy Birthday for the 5th! Mine's tomorrow.

Martin