Ripping CDs & settings in iTunes

XLD is my favourite ripping software as it seems to get the metadata right - I don't like PCs so not saying it is better than PC software at this, just the best thing I've used on a Mac and it is 100% iTunes friendly. The latest update seems very stable. 

Hmm interesting points being made here.

A blind experiment was carried out in October 2004 and in that experiement - Itunes MP3 rips came last compared to the other MP3 encoders being compared. The test was using VBR not CBR. From this test the "internet fact" has grown up that Itunes does not produce good mp3 rips.  The test was rerun in 2008 on a more recent version of Itunes against the other top 4 MP3 rippers. In this test, Itunes Mp3 rips were judged to be of the same quality as the other mp3 rips but unfortunately bad news seems to take precedence over good news on the internet.

I have carried out the test myself in Itunes using  identical CDs and ripping in both mp3 and M4A at the same settings - I can tell no difference. 

In terms of advice to the original poster - if you are planning on ripping using a compressed format then rip using the highest quality rate possible - I rip using custom settings at the highest rates possible.

I'm going on MP3 encoder from iTunes (probably version 7 or thereabouts) and if recall correctly the MP3 built-in LAME encoder in Max.

First if you then convert both to AIFF then the presumably Max just pads both files, but there were differences in the PCM data, which I did not expect. I only expected the metadata to vary. 

Looking at the MP3s with Audacity as the player you can see differences in the waveform - so yes they are indeed different and the decision on what bits to lose are not one and the same. 

My non-blind, non-scientific listening text told me that iTunes MP3 rips sounded inferior and I'm huge advocate of iTunes. 

However, using AAC (M4A) then both use core audio and produce the same PCM and unsurprisingly are indistinguishable.  

I always use Don't Hang Up from 10CC's How Dare You for such idle pastimes. I'm totally convinced that I can hear an improvement using AAC to MP3. So much so I'd never use MP3 on an iPod. 

Have you got a link to the Internet reports be interesting to see what they did?  Yes you can read opinions on the Internet, but I'd always advise taking a listen for yourself. I know people who can't tell an iPod low-res MP3 from a vinyl record or at least they say they can't.  

Are there any advantages / disadvantages in choosing AIFF over ALAC or vice versa? I guess if you ripped with and kept all your music in iTunes permanently ALAC could make sense but what if you considered using a Naim streaming solution at some point in the future and might want to use some type of UPnP server, wouldn't then AIFF be the more versatile file format? Or is ALAC handled just as well by Naim streamers and UPNP servers? Does one offer better metadata than the other?

Many thanks

tp

Hi TP

New Naim streamers handle ALAC - SuperUniti and ND5XS

WAV, AIFF and FLAC (up to 24bit/192kHz ) ALAC (up to 24bit/96kHz) Ogg Vorbis (up to 320bit/s) Windows Media-formatted content-9 (up to 320kbit/s) Playlists (M3U, PLS) MP3, M4a (up to 320kbit/s)

However, if you want to create 24bit/192kHz files then AIFF is the better route. However, for ripping CDs both are equal. My UQ can't understand AIFF or ALAC, but I hear there will be an upgrade in the new year 

The M4a in Naim's blurb refers to AAC rather than ALAC which rather confusingly both live in MP4 containers. So both appear with the m4a file extension. 

ALAC uses about 60% of the space that AIFF takes up. You can easily convert between the formats if you choose one and then find you need the other. It just means letting your computer run a conversion tool for a while. 

All the best, Guy

So did Apple solve the issue that a direct rip to ALAC strangely enough compromised the sound compared to a rip to AIFF? If the AIFF was converted to ALAC, the quality stayed fine. In the rare occasions that I rip, I just do it on AIFF and auto for that reason, with mostly good results.

Cheers,

EJ

Not sure if I'll add anything useful, but I've been using iTunes to rip CD's as AIFF, and leaving the other settings on 'auto' as per GF's post near the top. I stream with EyeConnect or Playback from iMac wirelessly to router and then wirelessly to Qute. n-Stream controls it all. 

On the iPhone/ Pad/ Touch2 the file type shows as .wav, but I don't know if that is correct or not. The sound quality seems very good, if perhaps a bit full in the bass. 

Guido; you say that your UQ doesn't understand AIFF; is this because your UQ is wired to your Vortexbox? Or is my UQ just compensating for the file format and reading it as a .wav? 

BTW my UQ is a 2010 model, and the firmware is v 2. something. 

> Guido; you say that your UQ doesn't understand AIFF; is this because your UQ is wired to your Vortexbox? Or is my UQ just compensating for the file format and reading it as a .wav? 

If I try to stream AIFF to my UQ it doesn't play it, if I convert it to FLAC it does. If I play AIFF on my computer through the UQ (S/PDIF connection) then it plays as normal. I have an early UQ so perhaps I need a firmware update. According to Naim, UQ supports 

MP3, AAC (up to 320kBit/s, CBR/VBR), FLAC and WAV (up to 24bit/96kHz via UPnp and USB only), and OGG Vorbis

So when it didn't work I wasn't surprised. Maybe later UQs support AIFF or Eyeconnect is converting AIFF to WAV for it. As it didn't work and Naim said it wasn't supported I didn't persevere; perhaps I threw in the towel too early.  

All the files con my Vortexbox are FLAC, but I have AIFF/ALAC on my Mac. 

All the best, Guy

> however that processing itself can produce audible side affects in the audio circuitry and it is this we are referring to when some people say wav is better than flac for example

However, as FLAC is smaller than WAV then loading it uses more processing so perhaps we should be saying that is why FLAC sounds better than WAV. Personally, I think there is no difference. I've tried playing the different formats on a Mac Mini and the difference in CPU load is negligible. My ability to hear a difference is that I can't. 

I still cannot fathom how the DAC knows what the original file format was that was use to send the PCM along the optical cable to the DAC. I can appreciate if there is a lot of jitter that this may uoset the DAC. [Naive comment, but isn't it like being given a text document that was origonally compressed with some thing other and then being able to say I know you compressed this with gzip or zip or stuffit or .... I don't see how you could do that or that if you were reading it allowed then any listening would know in what format is was stored]. 

I do understand that if the computer has do a lot of work then it could get hot and RFI and EMI could result, but .... sorry not convinced I can hear the effect 

However, as you can easily convert from one to the other then go for your favourite. 

'Tis definitely true that iTunes just rips HDCD as 16-bit - dBPowerAmp is pretty clever: is there any OS X or Linux software that does this? I think the answer is no because Microsoft stopped developers from doing it - at least that is what it says on the HDCD.exe forum. Why can't MS follow Apple's lead and make it open source? I can't run dBPowerAmp 

All the best, Guy 

Ah, this is where ignorance comes in handy; I read the manual, several times, and stumbled through the UQ specs on the Naim site (understanding very little of it) and then decided on AIFF for ripping. 

I just did it, and it seems to work; clearly if I had known and understood that it would not work, it would have failed. So, not knowing anything is what saved me. 

Kind of like bumble bees- they can fly because they don't understand that they're not supposed to be able to. And 'bumbling' is probably a good way to describe my computer/ digital music server progress. 

Just read this 

HDCD encodes the equivalent of 20 bits worth of data in a 16-bit digital audio signal by using custom dithering, audio filters, and some reversible amplitude and gain encoding; Peak Extend, which is a reversible soft limiter and Low Level Range Extend, which is a reversible gain on low-level signals. There is thus a benefit at the expense of a very minor increase in noise.

HDCD encoding places a control signal in the least-significant bit of a small subset of the 16-bit Red Book audio samples (a technique known as in-band signaling). The HDCD decoder in the consumer's CD / DVD player, or in some cases audio receiver, if present, responds to the signal. If no decoder is present, the disc will be played as a regular CD.

dBpoweramp DSP options will check CDs to see if there is any HDCD information on the CD and if detected, it will rip the CD as 24/44.1 format instead of 16/44.1.

No idea what it does though. 

If the Naim DAC had HDCD decoding like the CDX2 then just ripping HDCD to FLAC would work. However, in a way I'm glad Naim has implemented it as it would mean some of my money going to ..., but then again it would be nice if they had. 

Guy, Simon,

Thanks for your feedback, much appreciated! I think I will stick with AIFF for now. The only thing I find confusing is that the Sonos app sometimes doesn't pick up the artwork when a cd is ripped in iTunes. This happens sometimes when iTunes finds the artwork automatically and when inserted manually for all tracks in the way suggested above in this thread here. Why is that? 

tp

Just a quick note about my own recent annoyances...er, discoveries. 

Eye-connect will play / stream AIFF files; Playback will not. But Eye-connect is supremely slow and cannot list artists and albums alphabetically. It is much less refined than Playback.

So I've changed the iTunes import settings from AIFF to WAV, and then it is simply a matter of selecting the songs in iTunes, right-clicking and selecting 'create WAV version'. Then Playback will stream the files. BTW, Playback can see the AIFF files, but it will not play them.

Hi Damon

It is the player that will not play AIFF (e.g. my UQ won't play them, but it will play WAV or FLAC). The problem with WAV and iTunes is that WAV doesn't support the ID3 tags/artwork and iTunes has to add this in its own way. That way is not necessarily compatible with all streamer/players, but if it works then you're fine. AIFF is a better format for Apple, but some Naim devices can't yet play it. As long as Playback presents the right data then you won't have a problem.

EyeConnect is very slow 

UPnP has never been something Apple has embraced, but no reason why it can't be done. 

It is a shame the world didn't standardise on something like FLAC, but everybody liked to create their own standard

All the best Guy. 

Hi Totemphile

Rather than start yet another "newbie dips toe into streaming" thread, I hope you don't mind if I bolt this on to the end of your topic, which addresses some of my questions.

We appear to be inundated at home with ipods, iphones, ipads and macbooks, all of which access music in a number of formats from MP3 through MP4A (I think) to Apple Lossless.

As soon as the current 5 year old Windows XP desktop machines die, we will be switching to iMacs. Yes, we are firmly on the Apple path for domestic electronics.

As far as music is concerned, we are going to end up with 4 music libraries:

1. Vinyl for the Roksan turntable (it's a keeper)
2. CDs for the CDS3 (it's also a keeper for the foreseeable future)
3. Uncompressed music of highest possible quality on a NAS to feed main music system & my ipod
4. A library of MP3/compressed stuff for iphones, ipods, for the kids.

The first 2 libraries are well in hand (!), but I'm stuck knowing where to start with library 3 - the high quality streaming library.  I will kick it off by re-ripping CDs but fully expect to migrate to high def music in the fullness of time. 

In essence, I am looking at the kit that I need in order to rip CDs to the highest quality, then to serve the files properly to a streamer.  I also need to be able to access the music via itunes for my ipod, iphone & imac.

The obvious place to start would seem to be a Unitiserve, but if I understand correctly, itunes won't recognise files ripped by the unitiserve.  I really do need itunes to be able to see the music library.

Hence, question 1: if I rip the CDs on a unitiserve, will I be able to replay them from an Imac or synced ipod via itunes?

If so, great, as I trust Naim to create a bomb-proof, high quality system.  This leads to question 2: There's a U'serve with its own hard disk that can be further expanded with a NAS but there is also a U'serve with solid state RAM and no hard disk.  What's the point of the second one, when it is more expensive yet does less?  Is the sound quality somehow better?

Question 3: If U'serve is not the right answer for me (itunes compatible etc.), then how do I rip & store the music files? Some people use a mac mini, yet this doesn't have a CD drive.

Finally, question 4: which lossless file format to use: AiFF seems to be the only one that both Naim and Apple will work with.

Thank you in anticipation for any and all help with these 4 questions.  I appreciate that they are quite basic, and I have run a search to read a number of related topics, but would welcome guidance from those who are further down this road to high quality streaming.

Best regards, FT

Hi FT 

Regarding Q3: You could get an external CD drive and connect it to the Mini or you could get it to 'see and share' your iMac SuperDrive (rip on the iMac but the music is stored on the Mini). It is likely that you will run the Mini headless and use the iMac to 'see' the Mini screen using the Screen Share utility so you know what is going on.

What are you going to use to access the digital music? ND5XS or go direct from the Mini (via DAC?) to your amp?

Regards

Neil

Hi Neil

I would expect to run the mac mini headless.  Ah, didn't realise that the iMac drive would be good enough for bit perfect rips.  That would help considerably.

When playing music on the main system, I could just buy a Naim Dac but assumed that an NDX would somehow be needed for best sound quality.  Bearing in mind that I would be aiming for equivalent sound to the CDS3/555PS, presumably mac mini to ndac/555PS wouldn't be enough?  Whichever route I end up taking for ripping, storing & streaming, it will feed into the 52 pre-amp.

Coming back to my original questions and having read a number of Guy's incredibly informative posts, couldn't I just buy a Vortexbox and have done with it?  It seems to do everything I need with no impairment to sound quality... unless I am missing something.

Best regards, FT

Guy loves his VBox! Yes, you could do that of course. It would happily feed a NDX. The iMac could be used for feeding MP3 material for iPods/iPhones etc. The Vbox could sit out the way with your router and work perfectly well. I just have a Mini as this is how I started out (never had a PC and hate Windooozzzeee).

Follow Simon-in-Suffolk's posts re:NDX and quality. Depending on your budget and aspirations you might want to hang fire as there is speculation of a NDS.....

Neil