how does a streamer work

There are many ways of "streaming" - not necessarily compatible as such. If you're new to this, rather than starting with the technical side of things, I think you should specify what it is you want to do, what you are looking to spend, and other overall requirements you may have.

This is much easier and most important, as otherwise you risk ending up with something that doesn't meet expectations. You can then find the technical solution that meets you need. Lots of people will be able to provide good advice here.  

As Simon says, the terms are only loosely defined. 

My own dubious definitions would be 

a) Music Server (holds your music files)

b) UPnP Server/Bridge (makes the music available)

c) Player (retrieves and turns the music in to CD like data)

d) DAC (turns the CD like data into an analogue signal)

d) Controller (lets you decide which bit of music you want to play)

are the components of a streaming system (I've taken the network bits for granted)

Some or all of these functions can cohabit in the same box, just like a CD player, radio, pre and power amplifier can. 

In my original set up these components were

a) Apple Computer with 2TB hard disk

b) Sonos Bridge

c) Sonos ZP90

d) Naim DAC with 555PS

e) Sonos iPAD application

To make this work I had to use the Sonos application to tell the Sonos Bridge the IP address of my Apple Computer and the folder which had my music in it. It then started making its indexes. When it finished, took quite a while, I could see all the albums and tracks on my iPad.

What I think happens is the Sonos application talks to the Sonos ZP90 which talks to the Sonos Bridge, which as its name suggests makes the folder (disk) with my music on it visible to the network. As far the network is concerned my music is on the Sonos Bridge, it doesn't know or care that it is really on an Apple computer (in fact any old computer should do or a NAS). 

When I select something to play the application tells the Sonos ZP90 to play it. The Sonos ZP90 asks the Sonos Bridge for the correct song, which it gets from my disks. The ZP90 talks to the Bridge using UPnP. It will get sufficient music in its memory to start playing and whilst it is playing the first part will get the second part so that it always has a continuous stream of music to play. Until of course it gets to the end of what you asked it to play.

I simplified the set-upt for my office

a) + b) Vortexbox

c) + d)  Naim UQ

e) Naim nStream 

What is going on remains the same, but it is neater.

You could use a Naim Uniti Serve instead of the Vortexbox to keep it all Naim and re-introduce the Naim DAC to improve the sound. There isn't too much difference between the Vortexbox and Naim UQ except in terms of build quality and to build a Vortexbox with the quality of the Naim US would probably cost just as much (remember Naim's price includes a dealer and support). The Vortexbox is more flexible in that you can choose disc size and it supports Sonos, iTunes and some other things you may or may not want to use, but it is not Naim. So both have their place. 

a) + b) Naim US

c)        Naim UQ

d)        Naim DAC (+555PS)

e)        Naim nStream

Of course you could stay almost all Naim and add some of the versatility of the Vortexbox.

a) NAS

b) Naim US SSD

c) Naim UQ

d) Naim DAC  (+555PS)

e) Naim nStream 

In this set-up as the one before you are wasting the DAC and power amplifier in the Naim UQ so there are other options, though I think I'm right in saying you still have a superfluous DAC, but then we are used to that concept with power supplies.

So we get something of an ultimate system

a) NAS (one from Naim's list of recommendations would be a good idea)

b) Naim US SSD

c) Naim ND5 XS with XPS XS

d) Naim DAC with 555PS

e) Naim nStream

Of course you could use a UPnP server capability in the NAS if it has one, but the advantage of the Naim US SSD is you get a Naim UPnP server, it working just like a Sonos Bridge in this respect with the added of advantage of supporting high resolution music and it is much better built (as it should be for the comparative price)

My target set-up is 

a) Vortexbox

b) Naim UQ or ND5 XS/XPS XS (if on audition I can hear a worthwhile improvement)

c) Naim DAC + 555PS

d) Naim 282/SC/200 + Allaes

e) nStream  

I have a), c) and d)

The question for me is around b) as I could use my UQ and replace it in my office with a SuperUniti or I could leave the UQ in the office and go for the ND5 XS/XPS XS. 

Just posting this makes me realise why folk get confused as there are rather a lot of options and as we don't have limitless budgets getting the one that is best for each of us can be a challenge. I haven't even mentioned the NDX in the above. Auditioning every combination would be way to much for me and I'd confuse myself. I think settling on one and making sure it sounds right is the best I can do. 

However back to OP, if I were asked which bit is the streamer then I would think of it as being b) in my examples. 

I hope this helps rather than adds to the confusion. My office system seems a nice simple way to do this streaming lark.

Vortexbox/SuperUniti/<speakers to taste> (preferably Beryllium free) would make a stunning system. 

All the best, Guy

Hi,

the simplest answer to your question is:

With much patience and some luck.

M.

Run it up a flagpole and let the wind do the rest!

Couldn't resistor...

+1 for this post to go to FAQ!

Thanks, Guy and Simon!

Nick

Okay serious answer this time...

I use an iPod and sometimes my Macbook Pro directly connected to the pre-amp with a couple of Russ Andrews leads. Works a dream and doesn't involve buying any more complicated, expensive and limited life kit! For a quick way of getting your music off the hard disk, it's hard to beat. Doesn't sound too bad either! Would love to try a separate dac, though.

Hmm some serious misunderstandings here about how Sonos kit works - in particular the function of the Sonos Bridge. In essence, the Sonos Bridge is merely a network extender device that allows you to extend the Sonos Mesh network to other parts of the house. Typically a bridge is used where you want to extend the Mesh network to service another ZP90 or ZP120 or Play 3 Play 5 in a room which cannot see your Sonos Mesh network otherwise. Sonos brought the bridge out as it was a cheap way to extend the network without having to buy another Zp90/ZP120/Play3/Play5 to extend the reach of the network.

The bridge does not have any function other than this as you would expect from a box that costs such a small amount.

All the processing of Sonos is actually carried out in the main Sonos units themselves (ZP90/ZP120/Play3/Play5) and each main Sonos unit in a Sonos multi-room setup uses the Sonos mesh net to distribute the information amongst the units.

Hi Scilly

That's interesting, as I understood Sonos used a form of UPnP, but until recently I wasn't running any UPnP. I may have wrongly assumed that the Sonos Bridge performed this function. How does my ZP90 see music on my Apple computer is it just using a file share? Is my Sonos Bridge simply acting as a wireless hub? 

Many thanks, Guy 

Guido,

Your usual great stuff. If I'm understanding this all correctly my comparable system under your definitions is

a. Server: MacBook Pro hard drive

b. UPnP Server/Bridge: Eyeconnect (a downloaded UPnP (universal plug and play) program on my MacBook that allows my UnitiQute to find my MacBook and iTunes)

c. + d. Network Player + DAC: My UnitiQute (reads music selected for play on my iTunes through WiFi (could be direct computer to UnitiQute wired connection as an alternative) via EyeConnect and converts it to music output through its internal dac and sends that output through the internal power amp to my nSats)

e. Controller: iTunes on my MacBook with my iTunes local network sharing option selected

Am I close? My dealer gave me the outline on how to do this and you may be helping understand what I've done.

A NAS for me might be what is called a RAID drive or external hard drive for my Mac right?

I think I'm on a roll. My UnitiQute is therefore an all in one smaller version of a Network Player (NDX or ND5 XS) plus DAC (nDac for example) plus integrated amp (Nait 5i).

A proprietary Naim NAS would be a UnitiServe or HDX ( music storage device...a hard drive that also reads and downloads CD's to readable music files))?

Thanks

Clay

Hi Guy

Your ZP90 does indeed see the music on your Apple computer using a fileshare in the same way that it can see music on a PC using a file share or a NAS. You will have told it the music location to find your music folders on when you set the ZP90 up and you can see where your shares are in SONOS by looking at the Folders under settings on a Sonos controller.The Sonos Bridge is in essence a wireless hub albeit a hub into the Sonos Mesh net which is somewhat more sophisticated than a normal wireless system.

The Sonos system is actually a very neat solution where the system runs as a distributed system with each SONOS unit having all the necessary processing to function.  I run an 10 zone Sonos system with music in lots of rooms including the garage. 

I am very impressed with the Wired for Sound ZP90 I purchased recently which is connected into my NDX via the optical output of the ZP90. The sound quality is a big improvement over the standard ZP90 I was using before and tracks streamed from Spotify and Napster are very good and are comparable to the quality one gets on the 320K stream from Radio Paradise.

I was unfair to 8player.

Despite many quirks and limitations it does find the NAS (possibly only the Public sector) without the PC working. It will play a wide variety of music file formats successfully.

Although it needs a little ingenuity one can get random play within genres and other 'sorts'. At this stage - I'm happy enough to be able to squeeze something fun out of rather a lot of misguided work.

Hint to self - wavs are a bugger, iTunes is a bully.

Hi Clay

Yes the MacBook Pro is your server if you use its hard drive

Yes EyeConnect is Elegato's UPnP server for the Mac (it has had some negative vibes on this forum, but some good reviews elsewhere: I had never used it myself).

Yes, the UQ would be Network Player and DAC

e) Now I'm not sure here because if you are streaming from your Mac using EyeConnect as your UPnP server then you are not using iTunes to play music. You are using the Naim player in the UQ. This is usually controlled by Naim nStream. 

If you wire your computer directly to the UQ using a S/PDIF cable then you can use iTunes, as it is the player and your UQ becomes a DAC/pre-amp/amp.

Both ways will work and give very good results.

The UQ is a very smart network player/DAC plus integrated. [I hope Naim don't read this but, but I'm not sure how they got so much in to a little box with such great results at the price] 

Yes a proprietary Naim NAS would be the HD equipped HDX or UnitiServe. The HDX contains the player bits as well and is quite clever, if somewhat expensive box. 

[I just tried a new Mac Mini connected to a Naim DAC and have to hold my hands up and say in its latest incarnation, Apple has addressed all my criticism of my existing Apple kit's digital out. Yes, my old MacBook Pro (first generation) and Apple PowerMac and previous Mac Mini suffered from jitter problems (cured by V-Link or hiFace), but the new Mac Mini seems almost jitter free: better than top notch CD transports. I hope this extends to the latest McaBooks and iMacs so that everybody can enjoy their DACs or UQs through S/PDIF]

Plese note if your connection is through Ethernet then the above bracket does not apply, as you'll get very little (if any) problem with jitter on your home network.  

All the best, Guy 

Thanks Scilliy

Glad you like the W4S - always a concern when I enthuse about something like W4S Cullen mod or Vortexbox that somebody buys one and then doesn't like it. Hopefully, nobody would ever buy on just reading what I post as it just my opinion. Interestingly, Apple has addressed jitter problems in its latest Mac Mini so it kind of shows that addressing this area is very worth the while. 

All the best, Guy 

Hello all, this is my first post here. The more I read on streaming and serving and ripping, the more confused I get. I'm hoping to audition (and buy) a Superuniti this coming week. I have a Vortexbox 'thingy' that I've just had built for me (not even plugged it in yet). I hope to use it with a Superuniti to do music server / streaming duties. Ipad coming for Christmas  You may all see panic postings in due course ................ ! My assumption is that at least the Superuniti can be used with a disc transport while I learn the rest of it the hard way.

> Superuniti can be used with a disc transport while I learn the rest of it the hard way.

Yes 100%. Even with no streaming the SuperUniti is a top class integrated amplifier/DAC. 

A couple of questions:

If I get a UnitiQute to go with my iMac, do I also need to buy or download a separate UPnP program? Something in addition to nStream? I'm getting the impression that I need a separate application to actually let the UQ (or whatever) see my iTunes music library and that the nStream is just the controlling application/ interface.

Secondly, the idea of a streaming system is to allow the computer and stereo to be in separate places (as well as to have access to all of the music).  Currently, my iMac is connected to a wireless router. Will a UQ (or whatever) work with this system, wherein I have a wireless connection from the UQ to the router, and then another wireless connection from the router to the iMac?

I understand that wired is better than wireless, but will it work with the two wireless links. If not, which connection do others think is most important to be hard wired?

Thanks to all,

Actually, upon re-reading I see that Guido & Clay have come close to answering my questions, but if someone could clear up the basics for me, that would be great all the same.

Just a beginner at this.

Yes Wired is better than Wireless in the same way a landline usually gives better call quality than a mobile phone, but it has improved a lot in recent times. So using a mobile is not such a big issue. 

I think if your iMac is connected to your wireless network and your UQ is also wireless then they may struggle, but this depends on your environment. If all your neighbours have wireless then it can congest yours: you can change the channel number to make things better, works well if nobody has told your neighbours this is possible. (A bit like a back road that gets you out of a traffic jam as long as everybody doesn't go that way). 

You would need to give it a go and get good results. The UQ is not as strong as the iMac on the wireless front, but it is not bad by any means. The UQ uses 802.11g, Apple and the new SuperUniti both use 802.11n, which is more up to date and generally better. I hope we shall be able to upgrade our UQs soon. If you have problems then a device like an Airport Express may help. Naim generally recommends the server (in your case iMac) is wired. 

However, don't assume the worst. The UQ is a capable wireless device and has no trouble talking over wireless to my Vortexbox. 

Unless your iMac near your iMac - i.e. near enough for you to run a (Toslink) cable between the two then you will need some extra software to make your iMac in to a UPnP server. Effectively the UQ has a UPnP client that keeps saying give me music and the UPnP server delivers. The iMac does not have such software as standard. The Apple hardware I have is old and so very hard for me to get a reliable UPnP server. However, other forum members have reported back that Playback works well (I tried this on a newer Mac and it seemed good, but I didn't use it for a big library over a long period). Hopefully, some forum member who've cracked this will comment. 

nStream is a software remote control - it doesn't have anything to do with getting music from iMac to UQ, but it does let you send commands to the UQ to tell it what music to get. You need something that does that. The UPnP standard calls this a control point, but really it just a remote control. Sonos sells a remote control for its system, but it is really just like nStream + iPad in one combined package. You don't absolutely need nStream to play music, you could just use the front panel on the UQ, but nStream is nicer and free if you've got an iPad/Pod/Phone. 

I don't know the jitter figures for the latest iMac, but if it is a good as the new Mac Mini then just running a Toslink cable from it to a UQ should give fantastic results if this is possible for you. My old Mac is not great connected in this way, but very impressed with the improvements Apple has made to its latest products. The jitter on a new Mac Mini is 80x less than on my PowerMac. 

Hope that helps, Guy 

Guy,

Excellent and clear, thanks. I'll get an app like Playback and see how that goes. It may be that running cable is simply the strongest solution- actually it must be. Toslink (I figure out what that is) or ethernet possibly.

I'm also thinking that having a macmini as a dedicated music server is a good approach. Then it would be easy to have it near the UQ, and simple hook it up to the iMac once in a while to update the music library.

Again, thanks. I really appreciate your help and time.

A Toslink cable is a direct connection from the optical out on your iMac to the digital in on the UQ. If you use one then you play music using iTunes (or Decibel if you prefer it) on your iMac and remove the need for UPnP or nStream. It can work very well if the jitter is low. 

All the best, Guy 

TOSLINK (from "Toshiba Link" is a standardised optical fiber connection system. Also known as an "optical audio cable," In consumer audio equipment (via a "digital optical" socket), you can use it to  carry a digital audio stream from a Mini-Disc, CD and DVD transport, computers and modern video game consoles to a Naim UnitiQute, which will decode the stream of audio and output it through your loudspeakers.