New Pioneer amp is astonishing

Posted by: Jonathan Gorse on 27 November 2011

I have to admit to having been put off Pioneer amps some years ago by several bad examples and have been resolutely a Yamaha man for AV amps over the past fifteen years but boy am I revising my opinions this time around!

 

My home theatre system has been integrated into the naim 2 channel system for some years with NAP250 SBL at the front and a Yamaha £500 ish receiver driving some Kef bipolar rear's/sub.  Sub duties are performed by 2x REL Storm's and there is no center so I run in phantom center mode - partly because I have never stumbled across anything apart from another SBL at the front that I could live with.  DVD player is by Arcam, blu-ray via PS3 and also have another Sony BD player.  The family have had a great deal of pleasure from the system over the years but I have increasingly found myself feeling that the sound wasn't as transparent as I wanted.  It's not always easy to pinpoint where the fault lies but I came to believe that the sound of the Yamaha was somewhat muddy compared to the naim amps (in fairness no great surprise given the cost differential).  With that in mind I began a quest to upgrade the AV amp and earlier this week stumbled upon a brand new old stock Pioneer SC-LX73 (RRP £1500) going for around half price.  The store in Cheltenham were sadly closed today and tomorrow but the mgr didn't take too much pursuading to open today so I could collect the amp rather than wait days for a courier to smash it around!

 

A bit mad I guess to drive 220 miles round trip to buy it this morning but I did it and it was quite a fun road trip!  Sadly due to a prior lunch/dinner engagement I have only been able to hear it later on this evening.  I have to say that not too many products genuinely astound me and I wasn't expecting there to be such a dramatic improvement in quality over the Yamaha - I tend to think that as you move up through the Japanese hi-fi ranges you often get more features rather than better sound.

 

The sound quality is now leagues more transparent and tonally more naim-like - that is to say fast, transparent and dynamic  Eagles Hell Freezes Over on DVD is a beautiful sounding disc but I've never heard it sound like this - it is a huge improvement.  The music has far greater presence and I have turned around several times when a castanet sounded from a rear channel - it felt like it was in the room.

 

Anyway, just some initial observations, a lot more listening to be done - best of all I'm on leave for a few days this week so looking forward to more chance to play with it. 

 

Happy listening folks,

 

Jonathan

 

 

 

Posted on: 05 December 2011 by Neill Ferguson

Great post and I look forward to further updates. I believe your post highlights the problems companies like Naim now face in trying to enter into the Home Cinema market. Enjoy the new amp. 

Posted on: 15 December 2011 by garyi
Quite odd you dont have a centre, surely the most important aspect of any av set up.

I use an nCent with sbls, right at the hight of the bass drivers and it sounds really good
Posted on: 20 December 2011 by hiace_drifter
Originally Posted by Jonathan Gorse:

My home theatre system has been integrated into the naim 2 channel system for some years with NAP250 SBL at the front and a Yamaha £500 ish receiver driving some Kef bipolar rear's/sub.  Sub duties are performed by 2x REL Storm's and there is no center so I run in phantom center mode - partly because I have never stumbled across anything apart from another SBL at the front that I could live with.  DVD player is by Arcam, blu-ray via PS3 and also have another Sony BD player.  The family have had a great deal of pleasure from the system over the years but I have increasingly found myself feeling that the sound wasn't as transparent as I wanted.  It's not always easy to pinpoint where the fault lies but I came to believe that the sound of the Yamaha was somewhat muddy compared to the naim amps (in fairness no great surprise given the cost differential).  With that in mind I began a quest to upgrade the AV amp and earlier this week stumbled upon a brand new old stock Pioneer SC-LX73 (RRP £1500) going for around half price.  The store in Cheltenham were sadly closed today and tomorrow but the mgr didn't take too much pursuading to open today so I could collect the amp rather than wait days for a courier to smash it around!

 

Great post, thanks. Just out of interest, what pre amp are using in the main hifi? Also, what Yamaha amp did you upgrade from?

 

I have a NAC82/NAP150X system, which performs front duties in home cinema too. I have an Oppo BDP93 outputting via phono interconnects into an old Harman Kardon AV amp, which then sends front signal into the NAC82.  A few more connections that I would like in the signal chain, but it sounds very good.

 

I would really like to upgrade to a Processor/Power setup for the AV, or a better AV amp... your Pioneer story as inspired me!

 

 

Originally Posted by garyi:
Quite odd you dont have a centre, surely the most important aspect of any av set up.

I use an nCent with sbls, right at the hight of the bass drivers and it sounds really good

 

When listening to CDs on my system it seems like there is a centre speaker, even though there isn't.  I manage without a centre speaker for AV too... and it sounds just great,

Posted on: 20 December 2011 by Jay
Originally Posted by Neil Partridge: 

When listening to CDs on my system it seems like there is a centre speaker, even though there isn't.  I manage without a centre speaker for AV too... and it sounds just great,

 

Hi Neil

 

It's not quite that simple.

 

Movie soundtracks encoded in Dolby Digital, etc, have discrete feeds for each of the (5.1, 6.1, etc) channels. When a centre speaker is not present the amplifier commonly decides what "centre channel" information should go through the other speakers presenting a "phantom" centre speaker.

 

My personal experience is that running without a centre is fine, until, you actually put one in. Then you go, "hmmm, ok, so this is what I have been missing". Ideally both the speakers and amplification should be matched, at the least, across the front soundstage. I have found you can get away with unmatched rear surrounds centre effects but it's well worth while spending the time setting it all up properly. Like anything in this field!

 

All the best

Jay 

Posted on: 20 December 2011 by Jay

Jonathan

 

Just a little bit jealous of your purchase. I have an Onkyo 875 has done me well but these new Pioneers look and sound very very good. I could be tempted!

 

Jay

Posted on: 21 December 2011 by Jonathan Gorse

A really interesting discussion evolving here - specifically with regard to the centre channel and the new Pioneer amps.  I'm really pleased to hear the n-cent is working well for Garyi - it's an option I've been considering for quite some time.  I have long had a plan to buy a pair of beech SBL's secondhand and just use one of them for a centre because I fully accept that this is the optimum solution and phantom centre is not but if the n-cent is a good match for the SBL's I could be tempted in light of the modest outlay this would involve.  The older naim Axess and Axent centres which would be an even better match seem to be as rare as hens teeth!

 

I have another dilemma now too.  the rear surround duties have to date been performed by Kef's Q2DS dipole surrounds.  I love the wide and dispersed sound these generate and they've a fairly hefty drive unit compliment for surrounds - each cabinet houses two 165mm Uni-Q drivers with centrally mounted 19mm Aluminium dome tweeters.  In addition they also each have a further 135mm bass driver which fires downwards.  I went the dipole route because the back wall is right behind the sofa and the sidewalls are pretty close too.  I previously found using Linn Khan 1's that the soundfield at the back was too localised.  I'm using the Kef's up high on the sidewalls as per dipole theory and in-line with the listening position.  They're good, but don't have the transparency of the Khan or I suspect the n-sats which is compromising the overall sound especially now I have such a high quality AV amp.  I've started to wonder if two pairs of n-sats - on both the side walls and also on the rear wall would throw a sufficiently dispersed soundstage and would welcome comments from anyone who has tried them.  I'm hoping that they may be a better timbral match for the SBL and offer better speed and clarity than the Kef's.  That still leaves my center channel dilemma to resolve though. 

 

As an experiment I'm thinking of digging my Linn Khan's out of the loft and sticking them behind the sofa on the floor firing upwards to see what effect that has because it would be a free solution and would also generate a bit more sound behind the listening position while keeping their slightly battered walnut veneer out of my wife's view!!  Everything else in the room is beech/maple so mounting them on the Sound Org wall brackets I have on the rear wall is not an option with the current management!

 

The big problem I have is that the SBL's are too bloody good!

 

In answer to Neil's question I have a NAC102 pre-amp, NAP250 power amps and NAPSC HICAP driving the SBL's so similar quality I guess to his NAC 82/NAP150 set-up.  The Yamaha was an AX763 AV amp and the Pioneer is a huge leap up in quality, transparency and sophistication from that pretty good receiver.  I have genuinely been taken aback by how different they are.  I've also been adding to my cable collection with a mix of Chord and QED HDMI stuff (the Yammy was pre-HDMI) and that has also simplified the wiring considerably. 

 

As a final option I do have a pair of naim Credo (but they're in Rosewood veneer and currently reside in the office/gamesroom) but might drag them through to see how they sound as rear speakers.  The trouble is that my room simply doesn't lend itself to accomodating floorstanders for rear surround duties nice though this may be.

 

All good fun - and darned expensive!

 

Jonathan - might take some photos and post them if anyone's interested...

 

 

 

Posted on: 21 December 2011 by tonym
Originally Posted by Jonathan Gorse:

 

 

I have another dilemma now too.  the rear surround duties have to date been performed by Kef's Q2DS dipole surrounds.  I love the wide and dispersed sound these generate and they've a fairly hefty drive unit compliment for surrounds - each cabinet houses two 165mm Uni-Q drivers with centrally mounted 19mm Aluminium dome tweeters.  In addition they also each have a further 135mm bass driver which fires downwards.  I went the dipole route because the back wall is right behind the sofa and the sidewalls are pretty close too.  I previously found using Linn Khan 1's that the soundfield at the back was too localised.  I'm using the Kef's up high on the sidewalls as per dipole theory and in-line with the listening position.  They're good, but don't have the transparency of the Khan or I suspect the n-sats which is compromising the overall sound especially now I have such a high quality AV amp.  I've started to wonder if two pairs of n-sats - on both the side walls and also on the rear wall would throw a sufficiently dispersed soundstage and would welcome comments from anyone who has tried them.  I'm hoping that they may be a better timbral match for the SBL and offer better speed and clarity than the Kef's.  That still leaves my center channel dilemma to resolve though. 

 

 

 

 

Before moving to n-Sats I too used Kef dipoles for my surrounds. A highly-regarded speaker in Home cinema circles & I found them very easy to sell off S/H. However, the n-Sats, whilst not giving the dispersed soundfield of the Kefs, proved to be a far better-sounding speaker. They just needed to be sited differently. In comparison, the Kefs had a rather woolly, soggy sound quality.

 

Similarly, I also had a ginormous great Kef centre speaker - as Jay has mentioned, a centre speaker is pretty essential for multichannel-encoded sound - and in comparison with the Axess I use now it was pretty poor. I've never tried the n-Cent but I suspect it'll match in just fine with the SBLs.

 

You're right Jonathan, Home Cinema's expensive, but if you enjoy movies it's worth investing the time and money. It never ceases to amaze me that so many folks on the forum, whilst being very particular with setting up their stereo systems and prepared to lavish substantial sums on them, nevertheless believe they can just stuff any old pair of speakers on the end of a cheapo AV amp and expect to achieve satisfactory surround sound.

Posted on: 21 December 2011 by hiace_drifter
Originally Posted by Jonathan Gorse:

I have long had a plan to buy a pair of beech SBL's secondhand and just use one of them for a centre...

 

I have another dilemma now too.  the rear surround duties have to date been performed by Kef's Q2DS dipole surrounds.  I love the wide and dispersed sound these generate and they've a fairly hefty drive unit compliment for surrounds - each cabinet houses two 165mm Uni-Q drivers with centrally mounted 19mm Aluminium dome tweeters.  In addition they also each have a further 135mm bass driver which fires downwards.  I went the dipole route because the back wall is right behind the sofa and the sidewalls are pretty close too.  I previously found using Linn Khan 1's that the soundfield at the back was too localised.  I'm using the Kef's up high on the sidewalls as per dipole theory and in-line with the listening position.  They're good, but don't have the transparency of the Khan or I suspect the n-sats which is compromising the overall sound especially now I have such a high quality AV amp.  I've started to wonder if two pairs of n-sats - on both the side walls and also on the rear wall would throw a sufficiently dispersed soundstage and would welcome comments from anyone who has tried them.  I'm hoping that they may be a better timbral match for the SBL and offer better speed and clarity than the Kef's.  That still leaves my center channel dilemma to resolve though. 

 

As an experiment I'm thinking of digging my Linn Khan's out of the loft and sticking them behind the sofa on the floor firing upwards to see what effect that has because it would be a free solution and would also generate a bit more sound behind the listening position while keeping their slightly battered walnut veneer out of my wife's view!!  Everything else in the room is beech/maple so mounting them on the Sound Org wall brackets I have on the rear wall is not an option with the current management!

 

The big problem I have is that the SBL's are too bloody good!

 

In answer to Neil's question I have a NAC102 pre-amp, NAP250 power amps and NAPSC HICAP driving the SBL's so similar quality I guess to his NAC 82/NAP150 set-up.  The Yamaha was an AX763 AV amp and the Pioneer is a huge leap up in quality, transparency and sophistication from that pretty good receiver.  I have genuinely been taken aback by how different they are.  I've also been adding to my cable collection with a mix of Chord and QED HDMI stuff (the Yammy was pre-HDMI) and that has also simplified the wiring considerably. 

 

As a final option I do have a pair of naim Credo (but they're in Rosewood veneer and currently reside in the office/gamesroom) but might drag them through to see how they sound as rear speakers.  The trouble is that my room simply doesn't lend itself to accomodating floorstanders for rear surround duties nice though this may be.

 

All good fun - and darned expensive!

 

Jonathan - might take some photos and post them if anyone's interested...

 

 

 

If you get another pair of SBLs... you could have one as a front centre, and one as a rear centre (i.e. a single speaker instead of SBL and SBR), thus giving you three speakers at the rear in total....

Posted on: 27 December 2011 by HuwJ
I've had an LX73 for a couple of years now and use it with my Pioneer BR. I use my SuperNait for the front two speakes. I recently bought the new Rush, moving pictures BR, which also has A CD included. The BR is actually not a film, though it does contain 3 low res films from the studio.

The BR contains a hires stereo audio mix and a 5.1 surround mix too, again in hires. The
surround mix is awesome and makes the stereo mix sound poor in comparison - this could be due to lack of bass throught the sub. It is well worth listening to.

My speakers are all Focal be, 1000, 1007, 1027 with a REL sub?


Regards
Huw
Posted on: 21 January 2012 by DT79
Jonathan, Huwj - using Naim power amplification for your front L&R, how do you find the tonal match with the other channels?
Posted on: 21 January 2012 by HuwJ

DT,

 

I have matching speakers and the Pioneer uses a sophisticated set up routine in software. I don't notice any tonal miss match at all.

 

Regards

Huw

Posted on: 22 January 2012 by DT79
Originally Posted by HuwJ:

DT,

 

I have matching speakers and the Pioneer uses a sophisticated set up routine in software. I don't notice any tonal miss match at all.

 

Regards

Huw

OK, thanks HuwJ.  Contemplating an upgrade to a modern Pioneer and that's good to know.

Posted on: 22 January 2012 by Southweststokie
Originally Posted by garyi:
Quite odd you dont have a centre, surely the most important aspect of any av set up.

I use an nCent with sbls, right at the hight of the bass drivers and it sounds really good

I use 2 MK 7's in parallel connected to the centre channel of my Harmon Kardon AVR 7500 and find that this makes most movie dialogue very crisp and clear

 

Ken

Posted on: 22 January 2012 by Geoff P

" I've started to wonder if two pairs of n-sats - on both the side walls and also on the rear wall would throw a sufficiently dispersed soundstage and would welcome comments from anyone who has tried them."

 

Jonathan

 

I am sure your Pioneer can do the same tricks my Denon and you suggest you want a more dispersed soundstage. May I suggest you have a quick read of this:

 

https://forums.naimaudio.com/di...nt/13252151284974229

 

It may pique your interest or it may be impractical but it would be an interesting experiment if you wanted to play with the assorted speakers you appear to have to hand to see what you think.

 

I have not tired of it yet. In fact I like it more and more for surround audio both off film and music as I get used to it

 

regards

Geoff