Chailly Beethoven set

Hi JeremyB

Thanks for posting on this. I am a bit of a classical newbie (although I do have 150 or so titles of various things on LP).

And I am wanting a good set of the Beethoven Symphonies. This Chailly set seems to be making a bit of a splash. Obviously it is good, but is the 'splash' just that, or because it is new?

There have been so many versions recorded I am a bit like a rabbit in headlights! Looking at the Amazon reviews some rate the Haitink better than the Chailly. And then there is the Karajan, etc.....

If you have time do please give your thoughts on the differences of versions you are familiar with.

Regards

David

Jeremy,

Are you going to get the new Impex Records Paavo Jarvi Beethoven 9LP box set?

Jeremy makes some good comments about some of the sets out there. Re: Chailly, it is a great set and very exciting, but as flaws are concerned, those fast tempi force him to make every gesture a big one: there isn't much room for 'the music inside the music' (inner lines, introspection, the minute tempo or dynamic fluctuations). For me, this only becomes an issue in the bigger works (3, 6, 7, 9)   where others make the music project more energy. If you are attuned to this sensitive side of Beethoven, there are only a few conductors who 'get' it: Klemperer, Haitink II & III (II = with the Concertgebouw, III = with LSO, I prefer II), from the ones I know. However, I feel that I'd never really heard symphonies 1, 2, 4, 5, and 8 until I heard Chailly, it really is quite special.

Cheers,

EJ

This set looks very interesting...

Personally i'm rather fond of the RIAS, 

but not so sure about Wilhelm Controversial Furtwangler

( ...was he, or was he not, a Nazi? ...we should be told.)

The £300 price of this set alone is enough to put me off,

and i should add it's not a complete set of LvB Symphonies,

but includes:

Beethoven: Symphonien Nr. 3, 5,6 (in je 2 verschiedenen Aufnahmen)
+Bruckner: Symphonie Nr. 8
+Schubert: Symphonien Nr. 8 & 9
+Brahms: Symphonien Nr. 3 & 4 (Nr. 3 in 2 verschiedenen Aufnahmen);Haydn-Variationen op. 56a
+Wagner: Vorspiel & Isoldes Liebestod aus Tristan & Isolde

I bet it sounds really marvelous though

Debs

Debs,

Conductors who continued to work in Germany in the 30s and 40s were either a party member, or supportive. Karajan, Böhm, Furtwängler, Richard Strauss, Knappertsbush, and Krauss all had ties to the Nazis, although for most of them, evidence for their actual feelings towards the regime is contradictory. Surely enough some musicians chose to flee: Erich Kleiber and Klemperer come to mind.

While ethically questionable, I have a bigger problem with the hobbies of Robert King or Mikhail Pletnev (although the latter has been declared not guilty in court).

Cheers,

EJ

Dear EJ,

I don't think Klemperer chose to flee Germany, and was only too glad to return on short visits to Berlin as early as 1946, where he was accorded a warm welcome. He was terrified that after a personal threat to him, and also the disapperance of a close familly friend, a top Jewish Neurologist, he consulted his cousin Victor Klemperer and left within 24 hours in 1933. He considered resettling in Berlin in 1946 - "after all I am a German," as he said - but still felt the position might still be too dangerous for someone who had had to leave - the danger from certain entrenched elements.

As for those who were able to stay, well they were certainly required to tow the Nazi Party line, and some were less enthusiastic than others. Both Furtwangler and Richard Strauss were created Statsrats - State Officers - which "honour" they were in no position toi refuse if they were to stay. It is not in my opinion a question of the degree to which these people various welcomed and agreed with the Nazis as such, as there is a good deal of evidence that they were not always very happy to go along with the ideology, but the degree to which they felt their fame artistic prominence would allow them the freedom to act more as they might wish than less famous people. Goebells was very keen to keep the artistic life running [within the constraints of banning music by Jewish composers and "other degenerate music"] at a high level of quality, and in this respect those who stayed certainly held up the beacon of the excelent German musical tradition that the Nazis wanted to promote.

By now we probably ought to start to judge the quality of the music making by its historical artistic worth as much as the muddled thinking of those who performed the music [as we see it it from the perspective of the Victors in the fight against Nazi-ism]. I cannot say that I can quite managwe this myself, and I find it rather creepy listening to live recordings made in the presence of the the "cream" of Nazi Society. even if no doubt there were also many non-Nazis there as well ...

As for the hobbies of modern conductors who have strayed from modern acceptable moral values, I agree that this is even harder to take on and then enjoy their efforts at musical performance.

I know that this is slightly off topic, so to come back to the very topic, I always think that in the earlier part of our building of musical libraries, the best way forward is to choose to buy a certain amount on impulse. That way anyone can find out who are their favourite performers!

But after a while we do find which musicians [as performers of our favourite music] are the ones that give us as individuals, the most satisfaction.

Best wishes from George

Anyway, back on point, in answer to David's question.

The simple answer is that no one conductor's set of Beethoven symphonies can tell the whole story: as witness Karajan, Klemperer, Bernstein, Haitink, Jochum, Toscanini, and many others, who have each tried on more than one occasion to capture the essence of these great works.

Oddly enough, some of the very greatest recordings of individual Beethoven symphony recordings have come from conductors who haven't even tried to record 'the complete set': I defy anyone to find much fault with any of the few Beethoven recordings by Beecham, Barbirolli, or Erich or Carlos Kleiber.

But you need to start somewhere, David, so (not having heard the recent Chailly set), I could thoroughly recommend Abbado's most recent Berlin Philharmonic set for DG.

Once you have that (or, say, the Chailly or Norrington, or whoever) and have listened to them closely, it's important that you buy another set, or two/three/four. Because unlike, say, Led Zeppelin IV or Abbey Road, where we have definitive recordings from the music's creators, we have to rely on individual conductors and orchestras to interpret and recreate Beethoven's scores composed some two centuries ago. Much has changed in the intervening time, so give up any attempt to be able to hear 'what Beethoven actually meant'!

Hope this helps. 

I saw Chailly a couple of months ago in London do Beethoven 6th and 4th. I thought it was really very good, beautifully performed and exciting. I really like the new box set and it is now my "go to" box for Beethoven.

The concert series he did at the Barbican got fabulous reviews in the quality British press.

Kuma, Jeremy, as a matter of interest, where did you order the Jarvi Beethoven LP set from? I can't find it anywhere.

JeremyB

There's already an impressive list of fantastic conductors being proposed to you and agree with Graham55 that no conductor can tell you the whole story. Think you can only chose your favourites. Have listened to Karajan's recordings, both early sixties (loveable) and seventies, also Furtwaengler, Solti, Boehm (absolutely recommendable), Harnoncourt (excellent too) on both CD and record. Yes Rattle too. Ah, Haitink with the LSO excellent as well (good recordings, something you'll barely get with Furtwaengler). But you really should try Thielemann with the Vienna philharmonic. You'll listen to this super serious, disciplined heaviness necessary for Beethoven as well as the easy going, charming life appreciating style the Vienna Philharmoic now displays again. Quality.

Jeremy, thanks for that, but - at $350, plus costs and taxes - I feel able to pass!

BBC Radio 3 played extracts from the Thielemann recordings, alongside Chailly's, on CD Review a couple of months ago. I thought that Chailly sounded very good, and that Thielemann was impossibly, even theatrically, ponderous. Neither would cause me to switch from Abbado. I suggest that anyone looking for a Vienna Philharmonic set should investigate Bernstein.

Saw the Thielemann in stores yesterday... I was tempted, love his recent Bruckner and Wagner but on the other hand his Brahms symphony #1 for DG was not at all a compelling listen. So, will await the reviews first. By the way, which genius thought a white cloth box with gold lettering was a good idea? I couldn't even read the fine print on the box. Are these live recordings?

EJ

Chailly set is definitely a good set to get. The kapellmeister understands how to make music. Comparing Chailly and Gewandhaus, to say Sir Colin Davis with Staatskapelle, I would say the former is simply more enjoyable. I do believe that a profoundly deaf man intended his music to be enjoyable first, revered second. (How much of Shakespeare's humour gets lost in 'serious' productions). Let the critics and historians worry about best and accuracy of interpretation, simply pick one you enjoy and that lets your Naim work its magic. For me Chailly does that. Off to finish the full sequence, thanks to JeremyB for the idea.

Immerseel and Anima Eterna did a Beethoven cycle that is worthy of serious consideration.  It is an original instrument set of performances that is very revealing of the dynamics of the inner voices and always entertaining and insightful.  Well worth a listen. 

In my naivety I have asked a question that is impossible to answer!! I had foolishly thought you would have come up with a neat shortlist of the best sets with probable consensus. Thus making my choice of entry into the world of Beethoven simple.

But I may as well have asked what is the best bottle of wine to accompany beef?. Or Beethoven, for that matter. In that instance I am trying them all and will report back in due course. Or is Beethoven best heard with a glass of fine malt? I can feel another thread coming on.

Your answers show the problem to be worse than I imagined. Not only are there so many conductors (many of whom I have never heard of), but then you have the recording to consider. Live or studio. Then the quality of the hall. And is it best on CD or LP. Aaaaagh. 

But this is the joy as well as the frustration of it. The wonderful choice. JeremyB, I thank you for starting the thread, and EJS, Naim-Nymph, George, graham55, Lontano, Fjodor, AndyPat, and mikeeschman, for all your thoughts. I have read them carefully with great interest.

I have some individual symphonies by Karajan, Maazel, Batiz, and Konwitschny, and will be getting the Chailly to begin with. It has made a splash and I want some drops in my direction.

And I have also ordered the Impex Records Paavo Jarvi Beethoven 9LP box set. Special thanks to you, Kuma, for raising that one.

For anyone this side of the pond who fancies a copy, I have done some digging and am pleased to tell you it is available here. It gets good/rave reviews re sound quality. You can get it at Diverse Vinyl for £200 English Pounds, with no extra taxes, airport duties or hassle. Baby. As we rock fans are inclined to address one another.

And I enquired how many copies they have left. Four. One reason you may not have found it by searching there is they don't have it listed under Beethoven, perversely. If you search under Paavo Jarvi, you will find it. So don't say a word and there should be enough for anyone on this thread who  would like one. Limited Edition at just 999 copies worldwide.

Very best regards

David

Speaking of small band Beethoven: has anybody heard the new set by Krivine? He is compared with Vanska, Jarvi and Immerseel, all of whom were well received. 

EJ

Dear Jeremy,

You wrote a post much earlier - I have now read the whole thread through again - where you sum up my appreciation of Beethoven, and the inner life of the music. Though I have never been totally enthusiastic about every aspect of the EMI "stereo" cycle with Klemperer, it has stayed with me because it is the closest to a complete cycle that I could enjoy right through.

I have had cycles from Karajan, Boehm, Walter, and Immerseel. Only the Immerseel has survived comparison with Klemperer, which may sound strange. I like Immerseel's lucid balances, which match Klemperer's most of the time, but cannot quite align myself to some of his tempi. I think this is not so much a question of actual beats per minute velocity, but rather that the music has more flexibility in it than he allows. Never-the-less I expect them to stay now that they have been here for a year. Klemperer was a notably swift conductor in the early 1950s [and before that of course] though there were some notable exceptions[!], and even so his illuminating way is just as apparent even when he is actually performing slightly faster than the printed metronome markings.

I have several isolated issues of some of the symphonies as well as two or more of each symphony from Klemperer. I shall get the Vienna cycle from 1960 shortly to add to the Klemperer recordings ...

From Erich Kleiber I have the Eroica, the Fifth, and the Pastoral. All in the top rank, IMO.  

I have Sir Adrian Boult's performance of the Seventh from Montreux in 1955 with the French National Orchestra, which is as extra-ordinarily fine, and yet is frustrating. The radio tape was re-broadcast shortly after Boult died in 1983, and I caught it well on good tape. But the original recording is not the best and nor is the orchestra in the top flight, but it gives a glimse of what was lost in that Boult never made proper commercial recordings of the Symphonies as whole.

I also admire the wonderful performances of the Pastoral from Walter and Boehm.

I suppose that once one gets what Klemperer was driving at, many other performances of these symphonies can seem to lack depth of expression, which comes through in the teaming inner life of the music, which Klemperer never fails to bring out.

So my favourite Choral is that done in the Festival Hall in 1960 by the Philharmonia and Klemperer. Live recording on Testament. I very much want to get the Vienna Cycle [with the Philharmonia] also from 1960, which altogether was quite possibly also the high water mark of Klemperer's career.

ATB from George