Chailly Beethoven set

What a wonderful and fascinating thread!  There isn't THE definitive cycle of Bven 1-9 as apparent from the differing views.  I personally immensely enjoy Osmo Vanska with the Minnesota on BIS - fine playing, quick performances but offering to my ears more than Chailly, Vanska provides insights not apparent in many other performances, also superb SACD sound.  Recent cycles from Krivine, Paavo Jarvi, and Thielemann are also worth hearing.  The Chailly is very exciting but a little hard - I feel he misses some of the lyrical aspects of the symphonies and some of the playing sounds a little confused on occasion.  The Thielemann is a much more romantic approach, but just listen to the expressive qualities and magical playing of the Vienna Phil - makes one realise how much can be missed by the "authentic" approach to interpretation, and I say this despite being an advocate of period performance.  A wonderful older set is the Karl Bohm with the VPO, or if you want original instruments, don't forget Norrington and Hogwood.

Chris, can you share some more thoughts on Vanska vs Krivine?

EJ

Dear EJ,

Quite apart from the monitoring equipment,[which is certainly the best!], I can believe that Haitink would lead performances that are both lucid, and passionate. Beethoven needs both to really come across. The trouble with some performances is that the conductor mistakes passion for surface fire!

I'll watch out for these. What is the year or years of publication, please?

ATB from George

George,

Around 1986, made in commemoration of the Concertgebouw's centennial and one of Haitink's last projects as principal conductor of the RCO. The two main characteristics are Haitink's firm grasp of the structure and direction of the music (and it is indeed lucid), and his ability to let the music speak for itself. 

Cheers,

EJ

 Dear EJ,

Such characteristics make for grand recordings, as well as satisfying cincerts in my view.

Thanks from George

EJ: the Krivine is a much smaller orchestra using original instruments so the pitch is slightly different and the orchestra produces a thinner more shrill sound which allows more detail to be heard.  The recording is quite close so despite the smaller orchestra the sound has impact but can get a little tiring on repeated listening.  Tempi are mainly very quick and the performances are very exciting and dynamic.  Well worth exploring, but I wouldn't recommend this as your only complete set of 'the nine'.  The Vanska is a bigger orchestra, a slick (in the best sense) and well drilled highly accomplished orchestra, and Vanska is similarly often quick (usually not perhaps as quick as Krivine) and the performances initially don't have quite the impact but do bear much repeated listening.  Either way there is plenty to explore in both sets and each conductor brings his own interpretation to the performances each showing insights not always apparent elsewhere.  Both are worth exploring - you can't have too many sets of the Beethoven nine!  Good luck and let me know your reaction if you hear either.  The complete Krivine set can be heard on Spotify as can Symphonies 2&7 from Vanksa.

Haitink with the LSO is another fine cycle, as is Szell with the Cleveland Orchestra.  I echo earlier sentiments about Carlos Kleiber - his performances of 5,6&7 are amongst the best in the catalogue - what a tragedy that he didn't record the remainder.

Thanks Chris - I think a band and conductor need to bring something really special to the table to offset the reduced orchestra, now that the novelty of HIP has worn a little. Immerseel and Krivine, but also the old Norrington.

Cheers,

EJ

Chris, Carlos Kleiber was an unmatchable genius.

You can get his Beethoven Fourth in two forms: as a CD, on Orfeo, with the Bavarian State Orchestra, in a live recording from Munich; or as a Philips DVD, in a live recording with the Amsterdam Concertgebouw Orchestra (coupled with the Seventh, see below).

His Beethoven Vienna PO Fifth is available on CD from DG, now coupled with the Seventh, see below. It used to be available as a single DG LP. If you try hard, you may be able to find a live bootleg from one of his two concerts with the Chicago SO.

CK only ever conducted the Pastoral once in his life, with the Bavarian State Orchestra, available on CD from Orfeo. It's remarkable that this moment in time exists on tape at all. 

He left behind three (!) recordings of the Seventh: the famous VPO account now coupled with the Fifth on DG, the old LP no longer being available; a live account with the Amsterdam Concertgebouw on the Philips DVD mentioned above; and a live Bavarian State Orchestra account on CD on Orfeo.

It was an absolute frigging tragedy that Carlos Kleiber left behind so few recordings, but we should rejoice in the few that he made! 

Dear Jeremy,

In a month or two it is my plan to get the Vienna Cycle from 1960, which will make three performances apiece of each symphony by Klemperer! Sounds mad, but they all bring something special out in the music, and though Klemperer always came at the music from a thorough re-examination of the score each time, he was never quite the same twice in performance, and these differencves are suprisingly significant in alterring the listeners perspective of the music from the various performances.

Over along period there is a significant aspect of evolution in his performances as well ...

Maybe when I get the Vienna cycle I'll start a thread on it.

ATRB from George

Listened to symphonies 1 - 6 today, after a long time. I'd forgotten how good this set is, amazed at how Bernstein keeps the tension going almost unflaggingly (the first movement of the 3rd starts a bit tepid, but that's as far as it goes. Even #5, in which Bernstein underlines the famous four note motif in neon colors, works much better than I remember it to.

Cheers,

EJ

Norrington's budget set with the London Classical Players arrived today. First spin, starting with symphony 5, so it's early days, but first impression is extremely good - exactly what the doctor ordered. 

Cheers,

EJ

Quite extraordinarily underpowered, from the extracts that I've heard, so wouldn't touch them with a bargepole!

That's how I felt for a long time, but I'm glad I took the gamble. Listened to 5, 6 and 9 straight through, and must say the music and performances struck me as fresh and just right. With the new Chailly and the old Norrington, I've really started to appreciate the symphonies like I never did before, even finding a renewed appreciation for my old favorites.

EJ

And- Posted by graham55:

"But you need to start somewhere, David, so (not having heard the recent Chailly set).... 

Once you have that (or, say, the Chailly or Norrington, or whoever) and have listened to them closely, it's important that you buy another set, or two/three/four. Because unlike, say, Led Zeppelin IV or Abbey Road, where we have definitive recordings from the music's creators, we have to rely on individual conductors and orchestras to interpret and recreate Beethoven's scores composed some two centuries ago...."

What an intriguing thread this is turning out to be. Mindful of graham55's post I have now taken delivery of the Chailly set. And to keep JeremyB company I have also got a copy of the Jarvi  LP set, which Kuma introduced into the mix.

JeremyB has ably commented on the Jarvi box, but I wanted to add a couple of words about that, and in general.

First generally about performance. I appreciate I am not a credible commentator as a classical newbie. So this is really just to indicate I have now "got it" and understand that different conductors bring something different to the table. I have four versions of the 9th:

1) Karajan Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra on Deutsche Gramaphon LP

2) Konwitschny Gewandhaus Leipzig on Fontana LP

3) Chailly on CD

4) Jarvi on LP.

Glad to see that a couple of you agree with my recommendation, almost two weeks ago, of the Bernstein set!