set up MacMini as streamer

Posted by: Iver van de Zand on 15 January 2012

Dear All,

 

As outlined in other threads, I am thinking of replacing my Squeezebox Touch and North Star Essensio combo into either the ND5XS or a MacMini with an nDac. Consideration of either one of them depends on sound quality, balance towards my current system and - not the least - the comfort of using Apps to scroll through my music. Furthermore, the update needs to be future proof since I plan to use it at least 3 years. Other future (2012) updates might be an XP5XS. I am extremely happy with my current Nac 152XS, NAP 150X, FlatCap XS and the marvellous Epos Epic 5's, so these remain as solid base of my system. In the meantime I have a lot of fun with Jim Smith's book 'Better Sound'. I am now preparing as short insight of my findings of the book and will put it in a seperate thread shortly.

 

Regarding the option of MacMini/nDac, I have a number of questions. I have seen that especially Guido is a great fan of it, and his feedback in various threads triggered me. All my music is in ALAC, some of it High-Res. I rip and administer my music with iTunes. So,here I go:

 

1.) am I correct the Optical Out of the latest MacMini is superior to the USB output (would also save me from buying a HighFace or similar)

2.) in some threads it is stated that it is important to have a MacMini with a SSD disk. Is this superior to a regular HDD ? Why is that so ... because of less spinning things in the computer ? If not, does it make any difference to buy a 5400rpm HDD or a 7200 rpm HDD ?

3.) All my music is in ALAC on a QNAP 239 NAS (will stay there) . If I use iTunes on the MacMini to stream the music, do I need any seperate UpnP software on the NAS ? My guess is No, correct ?

4.) Does BitPerfect add substantially to iTunes in terms of sound quality and user comfort ?

5.) the standard MacMini comes with 4gb Ram. Is it worthwile to buy a 8gb version (note: the sole use of the MacMini will be streaming 

6.) thricky one: is the streaming quality of the MacMini a good qualitative partner to the rest of my system ? Bear in mind I plan to invest in a decent Tosslink/Coax connect

7.) I purchased quite some music from HDTRacks. Amongst it is 24/96 Hi-Res but also 24/196. Is the MacMini / iTunes combo capable of playing 24/196 ALAC ?

8.) currently I use iTunes on a Windows 7 laptop to rip and administer my music. Can I easily re-use this library of the MacMini or do I need to re-create it ?

9.) as an iPad user, I am a big fan of Remote. To my opinion it outperforms iPeng which I now use to control the SqueezeBox. Do you guys have any insight in Apple's future plans with Remote ? Will there be new features etc ?

 

Again, the MacMini/nDac route is one option, the ND5 is the other which also makes a lot of sense to me. Personally I believe that both options leave me the room for future updates or even "coming together".

 

Cheers, Iver

 

Posted on: 15 January 2012 by Guido Fawkes

Hi Jan


You may know my answers


1) You don't need a hiFace, the best option I have found is a Wireworld Supernova 7 optical cable 


2) No difference between SSD and HDD. I have both and the SQ does not depend on which you you use. The HDD is quiet, the SSD is silent, but the bitstream quality is the same. I can't hear any difference between different speed disks. 


3) Not sure - I use the Mac Mini S/PDIF, I don't use it as a server. If your NAS can act as an iTunes Server (supports DAAP) then you don't need UPnP: this is true for Vortexbox. Alternatively, you can use a traditional file share on your NAS and iTunes can have its library as a share. I don't know how to use UPnP with a Mac Mini hosting the client. File Sharing will definitely work, not sure about the performance of the user interface. I found it a bit slow to respond when I tried it over a Wireless link. 


4) It switches sampling rates automatically which is nice and optimises some setting. It doesn't do anything special in the sense you couldn't do it manually, but it is worth the asking price. None of these bits of software improve the bitstream from the Mac Mini. 


5) it is a very good music player (HD transport). 4GB of RAM is fine.  If your music is on your NAS and you can use it as an iTunes server (not sure how to do this with QNAP) or you're just using file sharing then a Mac Mini SSD would be my choice. 


6) Forget Coax - the Mac Mini has no Coax output. It use an optical output . You have a wide choice of cables the excellent Wireworld Supernova 7, Wireworld Supernova 7 or Wireworld Supernova 7. No other high quality glass optical cable has the right connector as far as I know. 


7) The Mac cannot play 24/192 tracks over S/PDIF. You need to convert them to 24/96. If you really want to play with this very high sampling rate then the Mac Mini is not for you. 


8) Sorry, I know nothing about Windows 7. However, you can simply drag and drop files on to iTunes on a Mac Mini from a MacBook so my guess you could do exactly the same with another OS. However, you'd need somebody else to help you with this one.


9) Apple guards its developments as closely as Naim. 


The Mac Mini is perfect for me and the SQ is fantastic, mostly because of the Naim DAC. I like the way the Apple system works, but I've used Apple computers since the Apple II. The other computers I've used are Unix/Linux and the Amiga. I would not expect it to sound better than the ND5 XS or NDX. However, I've not tried all this possible combinations. For me that I have found a great way to play my music is enough. 


All the best, Guy

Posted on: 15 January 2012 by Iver van de Zand
Dear Guido,

Many, many thanks for this !! Highly appreciated.

Pretty sure that the QNAP has iTunes server, but I will doublecheck ( if i use iTunes on my windows pc, it can play the files from the NAS, so should work).

I will raise the typical compatibility questions with the local Apple store here and let you know.

I hve downloaded the latest Wireworld pricelist. They talk about Supernova 6. Is the in the meantime a 7 version ?

Cheers,
Iver
Posted on: 15 January 2012 by Guido Fawkes

Sorry it is the Supernova 6 not 7 that I have (it has the mini-Toslink)

Posted on: 15 January 2012 by Jan-Erik Nordoen

Hi Guy,

 

Thanks for the detailed reply to Iver addressed to me (and I did know some, a few, hardly any of the answers). It's easy to confuse Guys on this forum, given the short half-life of threads here ; blink and your post is on page 3.

 

One small technical question. Where is the optical output on the Mac Mini ?

 

Thanks

 

Jan

Posted on: 15 January 2012 by NickSeattle

Jan,

 

It's the mini-headphone jack doing double-duty as a mini-Tos, same as some (e.g. Sony) MiniDisc players do, I am told.

 

Nick

Posted on: 15 January 2012 by Jan-Erik Nordoen

A digital and analog output together ... surely that can't be optimal.

 

Thanks Nick for the reply.

 

Jan

Posted on: 15 January 2012 by AlexWong

just one questions regarding the toslink interconnect.

should I get a mini toslink or the regular big toslink with a adaptor?

 

Posted on: 15 January 2012 by AlexWong
Originally Posted by Guido Fawkes:

Hi Jan


You may know my answers


1) You don't need a hiFace, the best option I have found is a Wireworld Supernova 7 optical cable 


2) No difference between SSD and HDD. I have both and the SQ does not depend on which you you use. The HDD is quiet, the SSD is silent, but the bitstream quality is the same. I can't hear any difference between different speed disks. 


3) Not sure - I use the Mac Mini S/PDIF, I don't use it as a server. If your NAS can act as an iTunes Server (supports DAAP) then you don't need UPnP: this is true for Vortexbox. Alternatively, you can use a traditional file share on your NAS and iTunes can have its library as a share. I don't know how to use UPnP with a Mac Mini hosting the client. File Sharing will definitely work, not sure about the performance of the user interface. I found it a bit slow to respond when I tried it over a Wireless link. 


4) It switches sampling rates automatically which is nice and optimises some setting. It doesn't do anything special in the sense you couldn't do it manually, but it is worth the asking price. None of these bits of software improve the bitstream from the Mac Mini. 


5) it is a very good music player (HD transport). 4GB of RAM is fine.  If your music is on your NAS and you can use it as an iTunes server (not sure how to do this with QNAP) or you're just using file sharing then a Mac Mini SSD would be my choice. 


6) Forget Coax - the Mac Mini has no Coax output. It use an optical output . You have a wide choice of cables the excellent Wireworld Supernova 7, Wireworld Supernova 7 or Wireworld Supernova 7. No other high quality glass optical cable has the right connector as far as I know. 


7) The Mac cannot play 24/192 tracks over S/PDIF. You need to convert them to 24/96. If you really want to play with this very high sampling rate then the Mac Mini is not for you. 


8) Sorry, I know nothing about Windows 7. However, you can simply drag and drop files on to iTunes on a Mac Mini from a MacBook so my guess you could do exactly the same with another OS. However, you'd need somebody else to help you with this one.


9) Apple guards its developments as closely as Naim. 


The Mac Mini is perfect for me and the SQ is fantastic, mostly because of the Naim DAC. I like the way the Apple system works, but I've used Apple computers since the Apple II. The other computers I've used are Unix/Linux and the Amiga. I would not expect it to sound better than the ND5 XS or NDX. However, I've not tried all this possible combinations. For me that I have found a great way to play my music is enough. 


All the best, Guy


Guy

When you say mac mini will not sound better than the Nd5 and NDx I suppose you are just comparing macmini and ND5/NDX as a digital source right? With the latter two will also go into the nDAC?

 

Or you are saying mac mini plus Ndac will sound simlar to ND5/NDX feeding a  amp?

 

Thanks

Alex

 

Posted on: 16 January 2012 by Guido Fawkes

Yes Alex, I was meaning that the ND5, NDX or Mac Mini were into the Naim DAC. My opinion is that the Mac Mini in to the Naim DAC is much better than the NDX. To me Mac Mini + Naim DAC is preferable to NDX/555PS. Mac Mini + Naim DAC/555PS or NDX/Naim DAC/555PS are both superb. I prefer a good transport (Mac Mini/NDX/M-G08.2/CDX2.2/W4S Sonos ZP90) in to Naim DAC/555PS to any other digital source I have heard. 

 

All the best, Guy


PS If you can try some Eclipse speakers in your room with your set-up; they are unbelievably good in smaller rooms and don't mind being sited on bookshelves. I know they are not British, but they have found acceptability in UK systems including Brian Eno's system. Of course, if you can't try them then go for something else as only you could decide if you liked them. 

Posted on: 16 January 2012 by winkyincanada
Originally Posted by Jan-Erik Nordoen:

A digital and analog output together ... surely that can't be optimal.

 

Thanks Nick for the reply.

 

Jan

No real conflict as the digital SPDIF is optical, and the analogue is electrical.

Posted on: 16 January 2012 by winkyincanada

The other thing that I really like is the ability to use the "Remote" app on the iPad. It really is slick. In my view, although similar to the Naim "server" apps, runs more smoothly and reliably than than they do.

Posted on: 16 January 2012 by hego99
Originally Posted by AlexWong:

just one questions regarding the toslink interconnect.

should I get a mini toslink or the regular big toslink with a adaptor?

 

I should grab a toslink cable with MINI in one end (for the MacMini) and REGULAR/BIG on the other (for the nDAC). I'ld stay clear of adapters.

Posted on: 16 January 2012 by AlexWong
Does supernova has this config ie big and small on each side?
Posted on: 16 January 2012 by hego99
Originally Posted by AlexWong:
Does supernova has this config ie big and small on each side?

Yes, it seems like it does (don't have Supernova myself) :

  http://www.wireworldcable.com/products/93.html

Posted on: 16 January 2012 by spartacus

Hi everyone. You may have noticed from some of my other posts on this forum that I use a Mac mini into a Naim DAC being fed files from a Qnap NAS, all being controlled by the Apple remote App on on iPad. I am completely satisfied with it. Just for reference the rest of my kit is 282, 150 (soon to be 250), XPS2 powering DAC, CDX, Hi CAP on 282. The XPS used to be on the CDX but massive improvement when applied to DAC.

 

Any way I agree with all that Guido has said so far. I was given a Chord optical interconnect by my dealer so I have not looked any further into interconnects. My iTunes library lives on the NAS and I rip CD's on the Mac Mini (late 2010) straight to the NAS. I suspect that if you have an iTunes library already built then you just need to point iTunes on your Mac Mini to it. If you go to ilounge.com (Articles section) or computeraudiophile.com there is a wealth of information on both these sites on setting up iTunes.

 

Bit perfect is great for automatically change the bitrate output of iTunes on the fly (iTunes checks output rate at startup to what is set in audio midi by default), some say it sounds better, I think it sounds different but not worse (if that makes sense).

 

One thing to point out with Bitperfect is that it plays in "Hog" mode so if like me, you use Airplay to give you multi room music, this gets knocked out when you start up Bitperfect. I disable Bitperfect when I am using it in multi room mode.

 

My Qnap NAS has an iTunes server but it is quite basic. The Mac Mini runs iTunes, it is set to never go to sleep also wake on LAN just to make sure. This way I just turn on the iPad and choose what to play. There is a slight pause as the NAS wakes up (3 second ish) and music comes out of the system. After that everything is almost immediate.

 

In addition, I would strongly recommend a wired network connection between Mac Mini and NAS. I tried wireless and it worked great until there was a bit more traffic on the network from other computers and then there was brief breaks in the music. 

 

I use screen sharing to manage the Mac Mini from another Mac or a VNC product call Pocket Cloud on the iPad. I have also got it connected to my TV for movie streaming or catchup services like BBC iPlayer etc..

 

All in all I love the way it all works well together. My grandson can request songs from anywhere in the house when we use iTunes DJ or I can keep it all to myself and do some serious listening. Playlist creation is easy on the iPad or computer. I chose this route because of all the flexibility it gave me as well as good sound.

 

Good luck whichever way you choose to go.

Posted on: 16 January 2012 by Iver van de Zand
Hi Spartacus,

Many thanks for this ! You confirmed a lot of things, I was assuming. This really helps. Have also an QNap, so expect no problems when using a MacMini. I know iLounge and will doublecheck. Have you ever compared you MacMini with other streamers in terms of sound quality ? Cheers, Iver
Posted on: 17 January 2012 by Foot tapper

Building on Iver's questions and Guy's most helpful replies & advice, I am planning to stream music from a Synology NAS, via a new mac mini into an NDX/ndac (on the main music system) and a unitiqute in the second system.

 

The NAS and mac mini are in one room, the main hifi in a second and the UQ in a third room.  I am planning to connect the NAS, the mac mini, the NDX/ndac and (separately) the UQ all via CAT6 ethernet cable (and a managed gigabit ethernet switch), as the house is already wired this way.

 

In almost all posts on this subject, it seems that the mac mini is physically located near to the Naim dac (or streamer) and connected via an optical toslink lead.

 

Does anyone know if it is feasible or advisable to connect the lot via a managed ethernit gigabit switch, as in my case the NAS & mac mini will be in a different room to the Naim music systems?

Posted on: 17 January 2012 by Tog
A standard switch from a reputable firm will do fine - a managed switch is overkill.

However, if you intend to have the Mac mini in a different room to your Naim gear you will either need a very long optical cable, or a UPnP server running on your Mac.

Personally if you are using the Mini - I would put it next to your dac and attach a decent external FireWire drive with your music library ( regular backups to portable hdd) - or dispense with the mini and use the NAS as a UPnP server to a NAiM renderer.

Tog
Posted on: 17 January 2012 by Guido Fawkes

Hello FT

 

The Mac Mini needs to be adjacent to the Naim DAC as the Naim DAC only has S/PDIF inputs so you have to connect from the Mac Mini to the Naim DAC using an optical interface such as the excellent Wireworld Supernova 6. [OK you could use a hiFace or V-Link, but no point really]. 

 

So (I may have mixed up the rooms) 

 

Room 1 Mac Mini + Naim DAC [connect using iTunes DAAP Server or File Share  to NAS]

Room 2 NDX [connect using UPnP to NAS]

Room 3 UQ [connect using UPnP  to NAS]

 

Mac Mini, NDX and UQ connected to your home network (ideally wired with Cat 5 Ethernet or better)

 

NAS - anywhere you like - as long as it is wired in to your home network. 


This will make best use of NDX and UQ - you don't need either between the Mac Mini and Naim DAC as it will sound great with a direct S/PDIF connection. 

 

This should give you a three room system and if you want you can play different music on all three at once (might not be great with all three on wireless, but will work fine playing one room at a time on a quiet wireless network). 


This will sound fantastic as even the UQ in Room 3 is pretty stunning for such a small box. 


All the best, Guy 

Posted on: 17 January 2012 by spartacus
Originally Posted by Iver van de Zand:
Hi Spartacus,

Many thanks for this ! You confirmed a lot of things, I was assuming. This really helps. Have also an QNap, so expect no problems when using a MacMini. I know iLounge and will doublecheck. Have you ever compared you MacMini with other streamers in terms of sound quality ? Cheers, Iver

Hello Iver,

 

When I first started looking at streaming I was in the market for a Unitiserve, Uniqute, and Naim DAC. That was my starting point. I auditioned using the same music All of the above Naim equipment along with Linn servers and my MacBook Pro running iTunes and the same music ripped in AIFF.

 

The LINN servers sounded great but for me they were too expensive and not as "integrated" as I would like in terms of control point, server, ripping and streamer.

 

The Naim equipment did not sound right... I later discovered that there were issues (I won't discuss them here) and moved away. In addition the control point left me surprised at how non user friendly it was.

 

The one plus point for me was the Naim DAC, a stellar piece of equipment. I decided that this should be my starting point.

 

My MacBook Pro through the Naim DAC sounded to my ears very good. I researched the Apple options and discovered how it all worked with the FREE Apple remote, iTunes with rips/library on a NAS. Read Computer Audiophile and iLounge and various other sites on the web. It also gave me a lot more flexibility in that I have all my photos on the NAS and when not playing music I have the Mac Mini connected to my TV using HDMI and I stream movies, view photos and slideshows, Watch Youtube etc

 

So effectively it has become a media centre. Oh, I also use Airplay via Airport express to play music in multiple rooms for social occasions and background music.

Posted on: 17 January 2012 by Iver van de Zand
Thanks Spartacus, highly appreciated !

If I hook up the MacMini to my TV using HDMI, can I than use the TV as "monitor" for the mac ( ie. Administering and scrolling through iTunes), or is the TV only usefull for iTunes movies and photo's. The reason for asking, is that I am thinking of buying the Mac without seperate monitor. The VNC you suggested will do to connect/control it through iPad, but having my TV "act" as monitor would be great.

Cheers, Iver
Posted on: 17 January 2012 by pcstockton
Originally Posted by Tog:
A standard switch from a reputable firm will do fine - a managed switch is overkill.

However, if you intend to have the Mac mini in a different room to your Naim gear you will either need a very long optical cable, or a UPnP server running on your Mac.

Personally if you are using the Mini - I would put it next to your dac and attach a decent external FireWire drive with your music library ( regular backups to portable hdd) - or dispense with the mini and use the NAS as a UPnP server to a NAiM renderer.

Tog

What the..............!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Not a single mention of Vortebox??????

Posted on: 18 January 2012 by spartacus
Originally Posted by Iver van de Zand:
Thanks Spartacus, highly appreciated !

If I hook up the MacMini to my TV using HDMI, can I than use the TV as "monitor" for the mac ( ie. Administering and scrolling through iTunes), or is the TV only usefull for iTunes movies and photo's. The reason for asking, is that I am thinking of buying the Mac without seperate monitor. The VNC you suggested will do to connect/control it through iPad, but having my TV "act" as monitor would be great.

Cheers, Iver

Yes you can use your TV as a monitor. As a backstop if VNC stops working for whatever reason I also have a nice little Apple wireless Keyboard and mouse the sometimes get's presses into service. I also control the Mac Mini using screen sharing from my Mac Book Pro.

 

All of the above are things I use for administration and playing around with other things. Most (99%) of the time the Mac Mini just sits there running iTunes only. I the pick up my iPad running the FREE Apple remote app, it connects to my iTunes library automatically and displays albums for me to choose from. I have recently added all of the BBC radio stations some even give you the option of a high bitrate (like 6 Music) other like radio 4 only gives low nitrate (because it is "talk" radio). Just create a playlist called "BBC Radio" browse though the radio stations on iTunes and add them to the BBC Radio playlist. These will all be visible from your iPad remote app.

 

For all this to happen you have to set up so that iTunes is started automatically on starting the Mac Mini. You need to share your iTunes library. From the iPad in the Apple remote preferences you need to set it to look for your iTunes library.

 

The VNC product needs a small listener running on the Mac Mini. On the iPad you see exactly what you see on the "monitor", you can zoom in and there are facilities for a touch screen type mouse and a keyboard overlay comes up when you click/tap on a text input field.

 

Enjoy...

Posted on: 18 January 2012 by Iver van de Zand
Thanks Spartacus. Now I have a complete picture thanks to you guys !! Appreciated.

Appointments for listening to ND5xs and nDAC have been made. TodayI got an extended demo on the Mac Mini in a local Apple Store. In terms of user comfort, value for money, future proof etc .. i choose for the Mac Mini as streamer. Now the home demos will do the other "parameter": sound quality. Keep you posted !
Posted on: 18 January 2012 by winkyincanada
Originally Posted by spartacus:
Originally Posted by Iver van de Zand:
Thanks Spartacus, highly appreciated !

If I hook up the MacMini to my TV using HDMI, can I than use the TV as "monitor" for the mac ( ie. Administering and scrolling through iTunes), or is the TV only usefull for iTunes movies and photo's. The reason for asking, is that I am thinking of buying the Mac without seperate monitor. The VNC you suggested will do to connect/control it through iPad, but having my TV "act" as monitor would be great.

Cheers, Iver

Yes you can use your TV as a monitor. As a backstop if VNC stops working for whatever reason I also have a nice little Apple wireless Keyboard and mouse the sometimes get's presses into service. I also control the Mac Mini using screen sharing from my Mac Book Pro.

 

All of the above are things I use for administration and playing around with other things. Most (99%) of the time the Mac Mini just sits there running iTunes only. I the pick up my iPad running the FREE Apple remote app, it connects to my iTunes library automatically and displays albums for me to choose from. I have recently added all of the BBC radio stations some even give you the option of a high bitrate (like 6 Music) other like radio 4 only gives low nitrate (because it is "talk" radio). Just create a playlist called "BBC Radio" browse though the radio stations on iTunes and add them to the BBC Radio playlist. These will all be visible from your iPad remote app.

 

For all this to happen you have to set up so that iTunes is started automatically on starting the Mac Mini. You need to share your iTunes library. From the iPad in the Apple remote preferences you need to set it to look for your iTunes library.

 

The VNC product needs a small listener running on the Mac Mini. On the iPad you see exactly what you see on the "monitor", you can zoom in and there are facilities for a touch screen type mouse and a keyboard overlay comes up when you click/tap on a text input field.

 

Enjoy...

Very similar to what I do. I virtually never need to use the TV for admin as the Mini "just works". I do occasionally use the TV to play iTunes videos or even YouTube etc on the TV. Control is through "Remote" app on the iPad or the OS-based screen sharing on my Macbook Pro.