set up MacMini as streamer

i wonder how many people think the macmini-ndac can compete to  a bare ndx?

is this economic that mac mini with ndac rather than ndx ?

Patu, I read the link thanks. Some good points,but some fundamental errors around SPDIF makeup, SPDIF transmission and data precision,  best treat with caution if you are going to follow his advice about tweaking your CD player, especially in the SPDIF transmission area!

Therefore his 'walk away' summary of 'bits are bits as long as you all of them ' is flawed in the context of asynchronous streams. What he should have said in terms of asynchronous data transmission is

'bits are bits as long as you have all of them and they appear at the right time and can be unambiguously detected'

Some while back, after a long, long discussion about this, we decided to settle the matter once and for all. We did the obvious thing and ripped an ALAC file, before inverting it and playing it back the original WAV and the inverted ALAC copy in the studio at the same time over different channels.

If you have the ability to do this you will find out what we did when we tried it - the result is silence, which is no more or less than you would logically expect. The same thing happens with FLAC, largely because both formats are what they say - lossless - and when you play back an inverted copy with the original it was ripped from, they simply cancel each other out.

I guess the nearest comparison I can make is with TIFF image files, which offer a lowish amount of compression, but always rebuild the original image (as far as I am aware), compared with JPGs, which offer a great deal of compression, but are lossy, like MP3s or AAC. If you invert an MP3 and play it back as described above, the result is random noise - caused by the differences between the two uncompressed files.

Unless NAIM have made a real boner writing the ALAC/FLAC decompression code (which I doubt), or the decompression overload is so high that it introduces noise in the audio circuit (which I also doubt, knowing NAIM), then at any given bit rate there isn't any audible difference on playback between WAV, ALAC or FLAC and which format you choose depends entirely on your preference and the bolt-on extras, like tagging. Personally, I go for the tagging every time, along with the benefit of the files occupying half the disc space.

Andrew

These are all lossless audio formats. There's no difference in sound quality between any of them. 

Andrew, Patu

Many thanks for the benefits of your insights.  

As a novice at this, I start by reading around the subject to learn.  In doing so, I have read a number of posts about why all the lossless formats should sound identical.

Then I read just as many posts from other experienced users with revealing systems, who clearly discern the negative effects of their systems transcoding (if this is the right term) from FLAC, AIFF or worst of all ALAC to WAV.

It is not easy to separate urban legend from reality.  Hence, I thought that it might be helpful for other novices (like myself) to highlight the issue in my original post.  There are many, many other novices to streaming who must be asking the same, basic questions that I am currently grappling with.

Having said this, it's really quite fun setting out on this voyage of discovery!

Best regards from a happy FT

The thing is that lossless is lossless if the work is done properly.

Properly implemented lossless should be indistinguishable from the original. If it is distinguishable then the processing is wrong somewhere. No doubt wrong processing would be audible.

It is possible to get it right. There is far more variability betwen the qualities of different recordings than any lossless replay differences in any case. I have never seen the differences brought about by lossless encoding described even when a difference is claimed as being heard.

ATB from George

Not only an assumption, but real experience. I found that different DACs for example make a difference to the end result, but no discernable difference was ever obvious between difference codecs, such as ALAC, and WAV, as taken from CDs.

With this in mind I adopted ALAC and iTunes as it offered quality similar to directly played CDs with considerably reduced costs for hardware [to achieve similar quality of replay] and much greater access to the music in a given time. It takes only seconds for me to precisely locate and start to play any desired track out the 7000 or so I have in iTunes, compared to first finding the correct CD [out of about 550], and then reading the miniscule print on the cover to sort out the particular track or tracks I am searching for.

This assessment of quality has been carried out on some of the most revealing and high quality systems that money could buy, so it would be unfair to say that my efforts have been based on my own Nait 5i based system, though that does make a very nice quality of replay.

ATB from George

It is always hard to differentiate personal preference and expectation from reality when you are talking of art - but that being said, you can't beat physics and you can prove that there isn't any difference between ALAC and FLAC and WAV, but that is where the science ends and the fun begins!

For example, I like the sound of vinyl compared to CD, but vinyl clearly doesn't have the same dynamic range as CD and (I think) this preference must boil down to the fact that I grew up with records and like the warm mid-range. Trouble is there is no way I can do a blind test, because I can always hear enough surface noise/clicks to be able to tell which recording is on vinyl, so I will never know what the truth is there.

On the other hand, in blind tests I can't tell the difference between 25/192 and 24/96, so there isn't much point me ripping anything at the higher bit rate, not that it ever stops me, because in non-blind testing the 192 always sounds better.

Well it would, wouldn't it?

I've decided that music is a bit like wine, you know. The law of diminishing returns applies pretty sharply after a certain price and the point where individuals decide the limit lies is influenced by so many different factors that it all boils down to preference after a certain point.

Which isn't to say that I would turn down a free CD555, nor, for that matter, a discount bottle of Petrus (-:

Andrew

Andrew

Currently ripping another bunch of CDs to AIFF for the NAS drive.

As for your final comments, absolutely agree; could you put me down for one of each as well!

I notice recently that Apple opened up the ALAC codec to the open source community. I also understand that the ALAC codec is able to support High Resolution recording formats and therefore perhaps we may soon see a high res version of the ALAC able of supporting FLAC type resolutions... we will see:

http://www.tuaw.com/2011/10/27...-is-now-open-source/

c.

Chris,

Old news and it hasn't changed anything as far as I can tell.  And who cares anyway.

No one is offering anything but FLACs and WAVs for download. 

ALAC has always worked on iOS devices and every player out there. 

When they embrace FLAC support it will be news.

"Open Source" really means nothing.

-Patrick

It doesn't matter - flac / alac are interchangable - it takes seconds using Max or XLD - or aiff / wav - whatever you want - thats the beauty of digital formats.

Patrick is right - one man's "open source" is another mans "walled garden"

Tog

Would you kindly elaborate on this statement?

I am in a similar situation as my Naim source (CDX) died recently.

I am considering two options (either would feed NAC82->NAP250):

nDAC/Option 1)  Mac MIni->Wireworld Ultraviolet USB -> MF Link (II?) -> Wireworld Supernova 7(?) glass optical -> nDAC.

ND5 SX/Option 2)  NAS (QNAP 212?) + PC/Windows Vista (already have this kit)/dBpoweramp -> ethernet cable -> ND5 SX.

Yes, I have auditioned both the nDAC and ND5 SX, but could not test Option 1 with dealer.  IMO, the outboard nDAC was a significant improvement over the ND5 SX´s dac. This, ceteris paribus, makes me like Option 1. However, I understand any connection from Mac Mini to nDAC will have more noise (jitter?), which might offset the better DAC.

Any opinions are kindly welcomed!

Start with the nDAC and whatever computer you currently have. Plenty of cheap and easy ways to get the digital out to the nDAC.

Then demo some things to see what you like both for sound quality AND for interface.

Or get a nDAC+Qute for digital output and streaming capabilities if you want to dive right in and budget is not an issue.

-Patrick

Yesterday I got my new MacMini (mid-2011-version),

and coupled with my recently aquired NaimDAC,

it sounds really good, so far.

MacMini & nDac are connected with good toslink/optical cable,

I have no immediate plans to try a USB-to-SPDIF-converter,

although I'm willing to test one in the future.

Am trying a few media players:

 - iTunes ("vanilla") without BitPerfect

 - iTunes with BitPerfect

 - Vox

Any suggestions on settings/configs on these players?

BitPerfect.IntegerMode=OFF with NaimDac?

Which toslink/optical cable are you using?

I'm using a Supra ZAC 1 meter MiniToslink (in one end, into the MM obviously).

Don't know if SupraCables is available where you live (Spain?),

it's a Swedish brand, but available in the UK.

I considered the Wireworld Supernova-6 promoted by Guy/Guido,

  but I found it a bit too costly, about 25% of a MacMini!

Hi guys,

As amplified when starting this thread, I have been doubting the last few weeks what the next upgrade to my current system would be. Current systems is around a 152xs/150xs/FCxs with a North Star Essensio, all fed by a Squeezebox Touch. Speakers are Epos Epic 5. 
Demo-listening, reading and this excellent forum, resulted in a short list of either a MacMini with Naim nDac, or to purchase the ND5xs. Today I was able to intensively listen to both options using my own music and with almost a similar set up as I have myself. The dealer is Van Duppen in the Netherlands who did an excellent job. Budget allocated is some € 3.750. The criteria that I used were a.) sound quality b.) comfort of use , and c.) how well and balanced the new gear would fit in my current set up, also bearing in mind that I am very happy with the "XS series SQ - level" and have no plans of migrating to Classic gear in the near future. On paper the MacMini/nDac has the advantage of adding an extra facility for editing photos and playing videos, apart from being a qualitative streaming option. All gear had extensively ran in.

The first half hour I listened to the ND5xs. From the start the player impressed my with very good stereo-placing and very good sound staging. Both were a lot better than what I am used in my current set up. Bass was very well pronounced and a lot of "air" in vocals. Most impressive was the ease of delivering music. I feel this very difficult to explain, but it is like the ND5xs has tons of power left, so easy and smooth it delivers music. From a practical perspective, I found the ND5xs very quick in response and in  finding tracks on the NAS. The display is too small for a good read from some 3 meters. The nStream app is very simple in features, but works well.

Swapping to the nDac, it brought more detail. Image and focus were also better. Strangly, I felt the ND5xs had more punch and was more direct. Again, I was enormously impressed on how easily the system delivered. It is very obvious the ND5xs and nDac are family, since the colour and rhythm of the sound is very similar. We listened to the nDac through a UnitiServe. Controlling was through the nServe app which is way better featured than the nStream app. Didn't know that the difference was so big. The amount of info and facilities on the nServe is huge. 

I listened and compared for another 2 hours. The nDac is in almost all aspects better than the ND5xs but in all cases I felt these differences were very little. In terms of punch and presence I thought the ND5 to be slighlty better. I'd like to emphasize that I concluded the above in context of the other equipment, being all XS series. So in the end I ordered the ND5 which will be "in da house" next monday. I thought the differences were just to small justifying the extra budget for the nDac/MacMini Now I had some budget left to purchase the HighLine plus 4 sound-absorbing-units to cover some reflections in my home acoustics.

In the end, dealer demo-ed the XP5 power supply to the ND5. This was definately and upgrade in sound stage, more detail and punch. Something to dream about :-)

Cheers,Iver 

For those interested...

Apple have released a White Paper regarding lossless file formats. Entitled Mastered for iTunes: Music as the Artist and Sound Engineer Intended.

Makes interesting reading.

http://images.apple.com/itunes...tered_for_itunes.pdf

c.

Thanks. Good link. Very interesting.

Interesting.