New NDS Streamer

I think the NDS will sell irrespective of SQ anyhow, because of its positioning at the top of the Naim hierarchy.  Note the people who are placing dealer orders without even having heard it.

The anonymous comment to Dustysox would also seem to run counter to what Phil said earlier (assuming we cut Phil some slack on his typo -- he clearly meant NDS as he refers to its suspended  chassis).

Hook

Maybe the DAC inside the NDS is the same as the current nDac.  The nDAC inside the NDS and a lower spec DAC inside the NDX.

This would also leave the upgrade path still open on the NDS.......upgradeable with a new nDAC2......and keep people guessing on an eventual ND555 (which would then have the new "nDAC2" built in)

Hook,

I think Naim does mention the ndac as an upgrade on the NDS web page. Look at specification/upgrades/others.

I'm not sure what all the fuss/anger/cynicism is about with respect to Naim's digital strategy.  Yes, it's not as simple as Linn's but it's quite clear to me.  To put it in a different way, you buy a Honda, you have 3-4 flavors, good, better, best, bester.  You buy an Audi/BMW, you have a quite a few more.  I drive a Honda and I'm quite happy with it.  I have the best minivan around!  I also have a pretty high end Naim system and it fits the bill too.  With that, here's what I think Naim is doing on the digital front:

1.  A high quality digital hub for those who already have a streamer/mac mini/SB/DVD/Bluray/PS3/etc. -- nDAC.

2.  High quality streamers -- ND5xs, NDX, NDS, ND555(?)

3.  High quality all in ones - Qute, Uniti, SuperUniti

Now, following Naim's tradition, options 1 and 2 can be upgraded with a HiLine, PowerLine or power supplies, and arguably (although not always so clearly), the nDac.  That is generally fine.  Upgradeability within the same family of products has always been Naim's strategy, reason d'etre and forte and I see no issues here.  

Now, to blame Naim for offering high quality digital solutions from roughly $3k all the way up to $40k while Linn has similar offerings at the $4k, $8k and $20k makes absolutely no sense to me.  

If you want less boxes, get a Classe CP800, Linn or Devialete (sp??) and be done with it.  If not, embrace what Naim is doing, the options it gives us, and enjoy the ride.  I'll probably be shooting for an NDX at some point as I think this is roughly where I want to end up.

Cheers.

You are correct - a DAC is mentioned as part of the upgrade path (along with the various power supplies).  ???

Hi Cat345 -

You are right, it is there.  I only looked over to the right hand side of the main page where it has been left blank.  Thanks a lot for finding that.

Well, I would hope Naim would offer some clarity here, but if history is any predictor of the future, they will simply say "use your own ears and decide".  If the current DAC improves upon the NDS's internal dac, I will be very disappointed!  If instead, as has been suggested, the word "DAC" is really being used in that specifications section as a placeholder for the next generation Naim DAC, then some sanity will have been restored.

I'll think I'll just wait and see what, if anything, we hear tomorrow and/or Monday morning from Phil and team.   In the meantime, upgrading from the NDX->DAC/555PS to the NDS->DAC/555PS makes absolutely no sense to me.   There is only so much you can do with S/PDIF output, and my belief is that the NDX (and probably the ND5 XS as well) already accomplished that mission.

Hook

PS - I hope AllenB doesn't spray his keyboard with morning coffee when he reads this! 

Gents,

In the fairness of bebate and clarification, I was told to hold on to the DAC to see "what it brought to the party". I did not take this as an upgrade for the NDS. I took it as pure speculation and interest. Time was limited yesterday, and I did not get the oppotunity to further investigate. So, if you are going today...have questions ready. 

Maybe anyone going to the show today/tomorrow could get further clarification.

Allen...enjoy your morning coffee!

Dusty, I am not surprised by your post. It might be the NDAC/555PS or NDS/555PS gives a choice of presentation styles rather than an 'upgrade'. As noted before the performance of the NDAC/555PS often appears to  extend beyond the digital recording quality envelope, and so I think the dominafeta aspectwill be presentation style. Ie if you like the ndac/555PS presentation perhaps the NDS/555PS brings little or even detracts.

Its all speculation,but at this level I am not sure there is 'definite' 'sonic improvement but may be more about sonic presentation choices, and perhaps the  comment you heard reflects this thinking.

 Simon

Agree Simon, NAIM might be trying to cover both bases by presenting the punters a choice i.e :

 nDAC/555PS vs NDS/555PS could be as simple as another CDX2 vs CDS3 scenario as to which "flavour" people prefer ?

Indeed it could. I remember with my CDS3, I tried with XPS2 and 555PS, the latter initially impressed but then fatigued my ears, the former sounded magical. But clearly this was personal as many people didn't or do not share that taste.

Simon

Yes - I did mean ND*S*, not *X* ... you should see me confuse peoples names in the middle of conversations too!

As far as DustySox conersation with Mark is concerned (yup - I wanted to check out who it was he'd been talking to - what? You thought I sleep at nights!) ... right, the S/PDIF out on the NDS is there so that *IF* the customer wishes to take an output from the NDS to an external device, whether that's a digital recorder of some sort - copyright flagging permitting of course - or *AN* external DAC or whatever. As the phrase goes, it's there "for future expansion".

Now, my understanding (from talking to a slightly battle-weary sounding Mark this morning) is that he had been trying to say that he'd never actually tried the NDS into our current standalone DAC and so couldn't say what that's like but that it might be worth hanging onto the DAC to give it a try and see (of course, we geeks have done that and tried it for ourselves and know what we think but then again we don't do any real work ).

We obviously do have some bad wording on the NDS techspecs page - looks like the "cut-and-paste fairy" and the "cockup fairy" may have been out on the sauce together and feeling mischievous because the NDS specs page lists the NDS as having a "DE0" connector? - I think they meant a "DE9", more widely known as a "DB9" (for the geeky of you, the "E" and the "B" refer to the size of the connector shell wheras the number refers to the number of pins in the shell) but either way the NDS doesn't have one - it has a mini-USB. At the same time we list as a possible upgrade - "DAC" - doesn't mean the Naim DAC is an upgrade, doesn't mean that we're working on a "superDAC", just "Can be used into a DAC" ... 

...can I go sit in a corner now, rock gently and weep?

Phil 

Making something sound different is an upgrade to some and a dog's breakfast to others. It's not for me to judge and people should do as they please. But taken at face value the implication that using the NDS with nDAC is even worth considering is a huge disappointment. 

Phil you might want to rephrase "cockup fairy".......

Hi Phil - thanks for clarifying the update connector issue. I was puzzled by this as I was given a printed NDS brochure which has RS232 as the tag for update connector type. The Superuniti and ND5 brochures  both head it as USB. I only read the brochures properly last night and was going to ask about this as the old serial method of update was way beyond the capability or understanding of my 2 nearest dealers (might as well have asked them to produce electricity from nuclear fusion!). I'm looking forward to it being a diy job on my forethcoming SU with USB update. Worth editing the next run of the brochure as well as the web site.

or indeed KDS flavour

ttfn

RR

+1

RR

I tend to agree, if the differences of  the NDS's DAC follow through to a stanalone unit and not just benefiting the NDS as a network player DAC combo;  ie the optical coupling of the DSP and the mechanical isolation  and perhaps using only an off board dual feed powersupply ( as opposed to the current ndac  dual feed method) then we may indeed see an ndac2.

Well after a good nights sleep here's a few more thoughts on the NDS:

Ive never heard ovators sounding so good and yes I have heard them active before. I'm putting this down to the CDS

I too had a chat with Mark who was very thoughtful and helpful with my questions (thanks mark!) and merely made the sensible suggestion to try the ndac and judge for myself. Ithink that's common sense rather than upgrade strategy 

Cutting through all this from my perspective I'm hopeful that the CDS works most sensibly as a standalone source (with power supply) and has a better engineered DAC built in. I struggle to see that  a 10K Internet radio streamer would make commercial sense?

Roll on the spring roadshows and home demos

.....now who can advise me on NAS, Wav or FLAC, RAID ......

Hey Martin you must be suffering from CDP withdrawal symptoms I guess.... CDS?? 

NAS, WAV, FALC, RAID....thats sooo straightforward no problem. Just start at post 1 on the streaming audio forum and read your way through 

Sorry its the weekend.

regards

Geoff

The DAC inside the NDS is very different to that inside the Naim standalone DAC ...

Phil

....but but but ...I thought listening for myself was the whole basis of a love of hifi?

I suspect it will rapidly become clear that the NDS is (naim) state of the art for both streaming and DAC.

CDS, NDS, CDP...........can I call them all bruce to avoid confusion?

CDS?

Yes - the active Ovators (on 3 x 250's) sounded *DAMN GOOD* in the Dem room in Salisbury - didn't hear the room at Bristol though. 

Cool - I have a *LOT* of respect and time for our sales guys - I've worked at places before where the sales guys just see the product offering as arbitrary units with a numeric weighting that they need to tot up to make a target and the guys here just don't come over to me like that.

You do like your CDS...

(Glad it's not just me that has finger issues sometimes.)

Yes, the NDS is intended (at this time at least) to be a standalone network player that takes it's position at the top end of the Classic series. Of course, if we do "build a better DAC" at some point in the distant future then we would be remiss not to provide a path to be able to use it...

Well you're welcome to give me a shout by email and I'll assist as much as I can or there'll be plenty of advice proffered on here...

Phil