New NDS Streamer

Well active why not. At least they showed a system that is very difficult to listen at a dealer making the presentation a double interest. Also maybe showing even better the potential of the new NDS box

After, it will always be time for a further home listen or dealer listen.

To my point of view, this polemic about the Ndac is quiet sterile and it seems quiet obvious that the internat DAC of the NDS is (or should be) better than the one from the Ndac.

As nobody compared yet, it's much too early to have a judgment about Naim philosophy or hierarchy.

Happy listening, waiting your comments.

Cheers

I heard the demo yesterday, and luckily the music chosen was mostly pieces I know very well indeed because I've used them in my own demos and one or two have become something of a reference point.  Even though I was stood at the back - not the best place to be - I was impressed.  While the system sounded like it was bursting to break free of the constraints of the room, it was good enough to clearly hear that the NDS was bringing something a bit special to the system (Allen, the NDS was being used with both Burndies in place).  It has definitely piqued my interest and I am now left frantically doing the sums to see how I can go from NDX/XPS to NDS/555PS...

As to the nDAC question, I'm not surprised that Mark may wish to remain non-commital until he has had more time with the NDS and tried out various combinations.  I'm sure he has heard opinions from the R&D engineers, Roy and Paul - both the theory, and what is heard in practice - but there's nothing like hearing for yourself.  The Naim sales guys don't just parrot the line, they like to understand, hear and then inform.  And let's not forget that until the NDS is signed off, it's still technically work in progress. 

Phil:

No its not finger trouble just total incompetence on my part...if I was in MS Word I'd just have a rule to replace CDS with NDS ....it would be forgivable if I had a CDS but i actually have a ndx2  cdx2.

At least half the advice on this forum is excellent...trick is to know which half. Thanks for the offer of help...I will certainly take you up on that.

MartinC

Not gagged at all in that respect - I currently run an NDX + DAC + XPS into 252 / SuperCap / SNAXO / 3 x 300s / NBLs as my "everyday" system at home (there's an AV2, 250s and 145 in there too as it's in an AV setup) ... being completely honest here, I spent my house deposit on my HiFi and a (now 18 year old) TVR and have never been happier.

If I didn't feel that the NDS was a significant improvement over the NDX + DAC then I wouldn't be trying to work out how to get one. Similarly if I felt that adding the DAC to an NDS was an upgrade then I'd definitely be keeping my DAC.

I've not had an NDS at home but have heard the NDS and the DAC in the Dem Room at work and *TO ME* there's a significant difference and one which *TO ME* counted as a worthwhile improvement.

Now, some people think that if someone from Naim says "trust your ears" then it's a cop-out on our behalf but I don't want to tell anyone how they should spend their money - generally "we" all work damn hard for what we earn and I hate it when someone thinks that they always have to upgrade to the latest and greatest to be happy. Personally I think that "trust your ears" is actually quite a brave thing for someone who works for a HiFi manufacturer to say because to me that means that we think our kit is worth doing "the Pepsi challenge" with and speaks for itself...

Phil

Hindsight is a wonderful thing ...

... if only we could have had it beforehand!

Phil

It is really great, how Phil is informing us, I really like it a lot.Keep it coming.

I always thought that the best digital playback in my home was CDS3/555PS. It is my benchmark against all the few dozens of other digital replay system I had and tried, none could provide the same fluidity what the CDS3/555PS could. SO the most important question for me how NDS is related to CDS3. Would I like it more? If yes than we are somewhere, it is the right direction for me at least.

Technically the other important question is if the streaming module (part) is different to ND5 XS or NDX or the same? As I understood there are extra measures for all sorts of isolations, mechanical and radio frequency, but I wonder if the streaming part is the same as for the rest of the network players?

Sounds more like a PR disaster. I wouldn't want to put another £7k worth of filling in a sandwich which is still topped off by the nDAC. Sounds like Naim haven't got there yet. 

Well it was definitely shown with active Ovators on purpose but not for the reasons that you possibly suggest.

The show dem room is an environment that no-one is used to - even the sales guys have to pitch up there the day before and have only a brief time to get the room to sound as good as they can, there's no time to do the job 100%. (That goes for all manufacturers doing dem rooms at the show of course.)

The setup was chosen to be as revealing of the sources as possible and as such show the defferences between each source as clearly as possible - simple as that.

Cheers

Phil

Uhuh - and thankfully teh smellpecker usually catches my complete inability to type teh word "the" ...

Phil

That's fine Allen, i also understand your point of view.

As it is now few weeks that we are all waiting this outcoming box, it is understandable to have "warm" debate or disagreement.

I just wish to point out that it is the early beginning of the NDS and to have such a "definitive" judgment may be too fast as nobody is already used to this machine.

Now i understand your fear about the Ndac and i agree that if the Ndac would stay an upgrade to the NDS, it will be a kind of mess in the Naim's hierarchy.

On my side, i wait to have chance to listen to it myself. Also, an other way of thinking could be... why to have put an internal DAC to the NDS if it was that "poor" for its price range ? They could have set a 3 box source in the "S" serie with a NDS / Sdac / 555 ps ? Or maybe that will be the next 555 serie... As i don't have a crystal ball i will wait the next surprise and developpement.

Finally, i think a demonstration of a new product introduced in the market should not be a laboratory for the listeners or whoever. Experiencing is coming after introduction We will have time to hear what has this beast in its stomach.

Best regards

Ikoun

Which basically is where I'm at too Richard...

No "technically" about it - there is still a significant amount of work to be done ... I'm going on what I've heard the NDS do so far and I want one...

...however there's also a significant amount of time left for the guys to do much more work on it and improve it further.

Phil

I'm interestedly following this thread. Thanks to the Bristol visitors for sharing your experience. Would you mind to elaborate a bit more HOW the NDS sounds, say in comparison to NDX and ND5XS. Does it have more PRaT, is it more detailed, more fluid, more analytic, more dynamic, more analog, more direct, brighter or darker? Very curious to read more ...

Thanks,

Oliver

Allen,

luckily I have an NDX/XPS at home so knowing how that performs, I could then extrapolate what the NDS/555PS was doing over and above that fine combo.  Of course, under show conditions in a room that was doing its best to become an oven, with me stood at the back, it's impossible to give anything more than an impression.  I would want to listen some more, under more ideal conditions, but from what I heard it was definitely doing something very good.  I can't really say more than that until I get one to try at home.

If the dem room had just been the NDS then I'd agree with you wholeheartedly ... but there were all three streamers there in typical configurations so that one wasn't shown in any more or less favourable light than any other.

Cheers

Phil

This is what I find frustrating about HiFi - I'm a computer-geek-techie ... I can't do "HiFi speak"... :-(

OK - I'll try to give you an example ... I'm sat here at my PC being the sad single middle aged bloke that I am, I have a friend turning up at 2:30 and have a pile of washing, cleaning and shopping to do before he arrives...

...but...

... I have the stereo on and playing my favourite playlist and "Mercy Street" comes on and I find I'm just sat here looking at my keyboard and listening. I have absolutely no idea how loud it is, I've got nothing to guage it against and it doesn't matter - I guess I can't hear my keyboard over it as I type but I keep closing my eyes and getting this "zing" feeling in the back on my head / neck as I drop back into the music and let it just roll over me. It doesn't sound "live" - it's definitely a recording - but it has a presence and it's there. It flows and while it flows I'm as happy as a pig in the proverbial. I don't know where PRaT fits into all this and I have a feeling that if I did then I maybe wouldn't enjoy it so much as maybe I'd be looking for things that I think should be different ...

I'm a techie geek every day for work and for that I *NEED* to know all the ins and outs - I don't want to know why Sarah McLachlan's "Angel" (on right now) makes the backs of my hands tingle and why it makes me cry like a girl but it does and long may it do so - when it doesn't then close the box on me coz I'm done.

Phil

Oliver,

As most here already know, I'm afraid I'm pretty useless at describing well what I hear, especially under such circumstances.  Running through your list of adjectives and I'm just not sure how I could apply any of them.  I tend to use heart, head and body as the measuring instruments, but I'm not so good at translating those feelings into words that anybody else might understand.

All debate aside about the nDAc vs NDS etc. I'm puzzled as to why NAIM chose to show the NDS to the pubic at this time if it's work in progress. Will the current NDS sound bear any relationship to the final production model. What was NAIM's prime objective in showing the NDS at Bristol?

Richard, of course I know the restrictions of such a demo. But for me any attempt of a closer description would be interesting, at least better than nothing. I think most of this forum's talk consists of highly subjective impressions but nevertheless it can useful, more so when it comes from a person with much listening experience like you.

+1

I really do hope the NDS sounds the "biz" and am looking forward to hearing it.  Competition is very healthy and to be encouraged.  But I have to say IMHO the NDS PR strategy sounds like trying to prevent as many people as possible jumping ship to a KDS from Naim CDP's et al,  whilst still working out how exactly to do it. Catch up is very different to leading. Linn made their decision to drop CD some time ago and IMHO are clearly ahead. Both in aesthetics and sound.

RR

Oliver:

How did it sound....ok I'll give it a go

I thought the 3 players were definitely of the same family so it didn't sound inherently different to me. (compared to say the differences I've found between CDX and CDS).

What it seemed to have was more "air" and greater insight into what the musicians were doing. That is not necessarily a good thing except that it managed to do this in a musical way.

For me the PRaT didnt change much. More that it was retained as the information being communicated increased....it communicated the music but retained the joy and fun and engagement.

For me the killer difference could be(more listening required!) the ability to capture the strengths of an analogue sound in a digital system

.....remind me never to apply for a job as a reviewer!!

Thanks Martin, much appreciated. A slight criticism I had on NDX was that it didn't sound as natural or analogue as the older gear (CDP / HDX). So, as I understand you, the NDS might be a step forward in this respect. Can't wait to audition it ...

God no - I get asked, probably at least once a day, "I've just taken delivery of 'x' ... it sounds great and I'm sure it'll only get better as it beds in ... what should I buy next" and that's what I was meaning ... even worse is when someone goes and buys something that they can't really afford and that takes the pleasure out of something that otherwise they should really be enjoying ... when music isn't about the pleasure of listening to it then it's time to take up Golf.

Not going to argue with you there ... it seems that the question that caused all this consternation in the first place simply caught Mark out as he'd not tried the combination himself and so couldn't give a personal opinion.

I thought that I had already clarified that? The NDS is the reference streamer and sits at the top of the Classic series of products.

As someone said earlier "If it doesn't sound better than the NDX+DAC then the project manager should be shot" ... well, I'm not the project manager for it so I'll agree (in principle) with the sentiment but he's pretty safe.

Well I thought there was no uncertainty until that posting was put up - I can't really say much more than I have, I've explained where the unit sits in the range, chased up the appropriate people overnight about the bits on the site than have been queried and found out what's going on ... I'm not really sure what more I can do short of turn up on your doorstep with a unit in hand.

More than aware that Jersey isn't just millionaires Allen ... was out there with Simon just a few months ago having lunch at that little shed cafe out where the old railway line used to run just up from his office - cartainly wasn't intending to sound like I was getting defensive about anything - just that some people think that just because we work there then we get given whatever kit we want. I was jkust trying to illustrate that - exactly as Richard does / has - that we have to take exactly the same look at a bit of kit as any other customer does and decide whether it's something that we want to spend our own money on ... otherwise we'd all be running active 500 series systems wouldn't we?

Unfortunately products will always evolve as new technologies come to the market - but I do understand your frustration. Hell, I get reminded that I once said that I was perfectly happy with an n-Vi and that would do me fine ... and then that I said the same with an AV2, 250 and 175 ... and ...

Nope...

Not at all...

I didn't think you'd asked any "awkward" questions and even if you had there's no problem in doing so ...

Cool - then hopefully we're square.

Phil

I think it's FANTASTIC a company like Naim says trust your ears rather than what is said in aportfolio marketing guide that tells you what is definitely best. Our ears, rooms and systems are all different.

Time and time again on this forum people are berated for saying what things should sound  like as opposed to letting people decide for them selves, this is what makes forum an interesting place.

This healthy approach of product confidence is one of the reasons I so like Naim. It's also reflects that with high quality audio a lot is about subjective presentation. It's great Naim acknowledges that. Wouldn't it be great if more followed Naim's example?

Bravo Naim for honestly and practicing the philosophy of letting the listener decide rather than a lifestyle marketeer that tries to pigeon hole everything. 

And if I am honest I'd prefer to back a company of dedicated enthusiastic audio engineers than a company of very slick PR marketeers...

Simon

+1

Wow, going on reading the 11 pages of that tread surely is a proof of my interest into that new NDS!

I'm left with two impressions;

1) Surprised that the NDS is classified into the Classic range, as it looks like it's built with most of the Reference designs we know (dual Burndy, suspended subchassis).

2) Intrigued by the gap in the Reference range it now leaves wide opened. Highly retorical question: Is it announcing a Reference "ND500" player or a "DAC500" to pop out in a foreseeable future? My bet is on the Reference class DAC to come out first...

As for the NDX+nDAC vs NDS debate (both powered by 555PS), it looks to me that the NDS should be slightly ahead... and should sound different all together.

Hope to see a couple of pictures of the "Naim at Bristol show 2012" rooms after it closes on sunday.

Bye.