New NDS Streamer

I'm with the "listen" camp.

I compared a CDX2 and a CDS3 recently - and am in the bizarre camp that prefers the CDX2.

So hopefully (for the sake of finances) I'll prefer my NDX over the NDS

I think it's FANTASTIC a company like Naim says trust your ears rather than what is said in aportfolio marketing guide that tells you what is definitely best. Our ears, rooms and systems are all different.

Time and time again on this forum people are berated for saying what things should sound  like as opposed to letting people decide for them selves, this is what makes forum an interesting place.

I also think its fantastic that you can talk to the product designers in a frank and open manor and get such an open and honest response.

I have heard the NDS and I suggest all those that are interested in the NDS go and do the same. I was very impressed and I understand completely what it is about.

Regards

PB

Mark should have said "given the NDS has a digital output, it would be fun to listen to anything that is connected to it, including the Naim DAC...".   Why not?  At least we would have then understood that Mark's comment was pure speculation (and for amusement purposes -- after all, he did say party  ).

The web page specs section should not use the word "DAC".  When capitalized, the word becomes ambiguous, and in this case, it contributed mightily to the speculation that the Naim DAC was an upgrade for the NDS.

The nDAC, or better, Naim DAC is Naim's product.   "dac" is a generic acronym.   And "DAC" should never be used without qualification.   It should be the "Benchmark DAC" or the "Lavry DAC".  If the web page had even just said "an external DAC", or even better yet "a future DAC from Naim", then this thread would not have gone off on this awkward tangent!

Phil -- please ask the marketing folks to remove "DAC" from the NDS's web page specs section, and replace it with a more qualified term.   Thanks!

Hook

Although if running them through the DAC it seems you are not likely to hear a difference worth the extra outlay - given what a DAC could bring to the party. Maybe the ND555 will surpass what can be bought cheaper off the shelves already. 

But the proof will be in the listening. 

I was talking about the forum Allen,

And far from me to pose as a product planner.

I appreciate the honesty of the opinion that nDAC users should not be too hasty in part exchanging them. But this does cast doubt on the superiority of the NDS and pulls it off my radar because it is another option in a sea of crowded permutations with no clear streamer to rule them all. If there is not yet another top streamer in development which blows away all else it its own right, it would seem that we have reached the limits of development.

The flip side is that the nDAC/555PS is so good that Naim are unable to top it. Good news for some of us but if true, why are there three stand alone streamers, one costing north of £7K? Why bother?

My eagerness to hear it and audition it has evaporated. But of course I will. And I'll be paying close attention to how it sounds with a powered nDAC. If there is any improvement, my hands will stay in my pocket and I will wait for the real thing. Or perhaps widen my gaze.

Harry, have I missed something here? Who is saying that the nDAC/555PS outperforms the NDS/555PS? 

It is my understanding that the NDS has been designed to take things further.  It is, after all, Naim's Reference streamer.  From what I've heard, albeit briefly, they may well have achieved this.  Certainly the mass loaded suspension system should give the NDS something of an advantage over the nDAC, even if all else remains equal.

Somehow I find it slightly amusing how everyone goes off on a remark thrown in at the show, now questioning the NDS, worrying that it might be upgraded by the nDAC, dissing the NDS on speculative reasons alone, being disillusioned, cussing cause Naim put a dig out on the NDS, lamenting the fact that the word DAC is mentioned in the specification section, etc. It almost seems as if people are longing for something being not quite right about the NDS. Well, I think this whole discussion is complete nonsense and a waste of time really. I have full belief that the NDS/PS555 will be head and shoulders above the nDAC/PS555, anything else just wouldn't make sense. Naim would not set out to build an S type streamer, if it wasn't substantially "better" than what already exists at present. One only has to look at the specs of the NDS to be at ease and believe that this is the case. Have some faith folks, I am sure everything will turn out just fine and those who are lucky enough to be able to afford the NDS will end up being very chuffed indeed.

I doubt you've missed anything Richard. The NDS is the one we've been waiting for but technical opinion as stated at Bristol implies that adding the nDAC could bring more to the party. Not from someone who has had a few too many or is speaking out of his back side, but a technical opinion.  I'm afraid a wheel has come off the PR machine. 

And I don't find it in the least bit amusing that someone from Naim should be moved to state this at the launch in front of a cohort of people being told that that we have finally moved up to a new reference level. £7K is a lot of money for something which according to what was said, can't top a £2K DAC. We can ignore it or spin it in any number of ways, but some of us will be highly skeptical that such disagreement exists for no good reason.

Hi Allen, 

I completely agree with you on this, Naim need to come out at some point and make it clear that the current Naim DAC is no upgrade for the NDS but rather a side step at best or more probable leading to a deterioration in SQ. Any other scenario would be ludicrous. The point I was trying to make is that this thought never entered my mind in the first place, for me it was and is crystal clear that the NDS will be heaps better than what's currently achievable with the nDAC, anything else would be commercial suicide and a more than stupid move on Naim's part. They would risk to become the laughing stock of the Hifi industry. What I find surprising though is that every time Naim release a new product, speculation runs wild here on the forum and lots of negative connotations come out into the open, Naim being criticized and even slagged off for their efforts. This type of reaction puzzles me because more often than not people end up being very happy with the products that are released and what's more people should know better given Naim's history and obsessive focus on quality. These are just my observations and thoughts that come to mind when following the discussion. But maybe that type of reaction is needed to keep Naim on their toes, I just think they would do a stellar job regardless. Not that I am sentimental about this but it must pain Naim to read some of the comments directed at them, given the effort they put in to ensure every product is the best it can be.

ATB

tp 

All debate aside about the nDAc vs NDS etc. I'm puzzled as to why NAIM chose to show the NDS to the pubic at this time if it's work in progress. Will the current NDS sound bear any relationship to the final production model. What was NAIM's prime objective in showing the NDS at Bristol?

How many iterations of  the Ovator 600 did NAIM go through, from announcement through  many demo versions with different sound to actual delivered version?

Why should the NDS be any different?

My comments were not directed specifically to the NDS. Sorry for the ambiguity. It was a genuine interest in NAIM's product development and marketing strategy.

Given the engineering that's gone into this, the suspension, the new streamer board and the full utilisation of the 555PS should ensure its comfortably ahead of the NDX / nDAC combination. Does it un seat the CD555 from its throne ? (i would suspect it does). The future - will Naim develop its own DAC core along the lines of MSB / Chord etc rather than using off the shelf solutions ? 

I look forward to hearing the verdict when the NDS is finally released and the usual suspects get their hands on it and report back  

Back to the rugby...

James

Okay - deep breathes all round guys - lets not get hung up on one comment and lots of speculation.

I am sure all will become apparent in the fullness of time.

I am sure we all thank Phil (I certainly do) for being as open as he is and spending what is obviously his own time (remember its the weekend) in answering questions.

This was my mind set also. At the end of the day the ears will be the judge and that never changes. But talk about dealing one off the bottom of the pack.

We were going on Friday but had to bin it. I hope we can get in tomorrow and I hope that we can get bums down for a demo. I'd still like to meet it but the home audition (if it happens) is going to be a mass of boxes and Burndys. in the mean time, I'm sure ears on accounts will be posted that will address the nDAC joker.

Your point is well made Peter.

Sooner or later we'll see what's what, and opinions will doubtless drop into the usual Bell Curve. 

I heard the demo at Bristol and have to say the NDS was clearly superior to the other streamers when played through a revealing active system.

For me the obvious question then was whether the NDS onboard dac is as good as or better than the NDAC as interestingly the NDAC is not shown as a possible upgrade path for the NDS even though the NDS has a digital out.

Doug's answer was that it compares "very favourably" and that basically the NDS with its on board DAC would outperform an NDX with the NDAC. So anyone like me with an NDX and NDAC could move up to the NDS provided we have an external ps to power it.

According to Doug It also, on a par with the 555cd player in sound quality terms when used with the 555ps. (It is actually described in their blurb as their "reference" streamer although not as "555". Of course "reference" in this context probably means just their "best" with which they compare everything else.)

The only downside is that the NDS does not have as many digital inputs as the NDAC so it may not suit everyone from that point of view,

However, this leads  to the obvious second question and the subject of much speculation on the forum. Will there be a new DAC? Obviously no straight answers from the Naim guys on this other than the telling point that Naim rarely only has one product in each area of its product range and that the NDAC  is "only in 5 series casework rather than the Classic series".

I sensed from the comments that the development of a new DAC based on the improved DAC technology employed in the NDS with further enhancements was a distinct possibility. If this is forthcoming then it would also probably solve the digital input shortage on the NDS for those with multiple digital sources and take the NDS beyond the CD555 level of performance.

I have to say I have been frustrated by the lack of an obvious road map for Naim streamer products. For example with the Ovators Naim said they were planning for two models above and two models below the 600. We knew the price and size  of the Ovators at the time so could speculate whether it was worth waiting for the more expensive (and larger) versions or not.  With the rest of the product  range there is fairly well laid out upgrade route that one can aspire to.

Had I known of the NDS arrival I would probably not have purchased my NDX last year. However, there's still a few months to go before the NDS hits the shops so I will have enjoyed my NDX for about a year by then. I will then consider whether to part exchange my CDS3\ NDX\NDAC for the NDS for the improvement it will bring in sound quality and start saving for the likely new DAC.

If there is no new DAC well at least I will still  have close to cd555 quality from the NDS/555ps and with all the convenience of streaming.

Anyway back to the point, the NDS is clearly better than the current Naim options although at £6250 plus a separate power supply, so it should be!

There has been criticism above about Naim showing a pre-production model of the NDS, however, in the past I can remember criticism when they launched a new product without any prior announcement. For my part I much prefer the opportunity to view and audition the product in advance. 

Gerry

I'm sure that if it is possible to make a better DAC they will. I expect it is. Something to potentially push the NDS (for example) to a higher level is fishing in a shallower pool but there will be a queue. 

Dutch site has the specs sheet at the bottom. Maybe worth a look! Yes it in English. Or is that sheet already global knowledge?
http://www.hifi.nl/artikel/647...Streaming-Audio.html

Regards

Alex

Yes. At this "level" (hate that term), the differences are SUBTLE in spite of some rhetoric present in the HiFi press, and on this forum.

Re the concern about comments made in response to questions at the dem, as someone who was there I think we should cut the guys a little slack. As I mentioned on the Show report thread there was no proper time for questions (a big mistake IMHO) so basically a room full of people had about 2 minutes to buttonhole 2 or 3 Naim people before the next dem crowd came in.

Mark's comment pales in comparison to the response to my question about lack of a powered input on the Superuniti  - one of the reasons given was "there's no more room on the back panel" (of course it already has a din input that isn't powered)!!!!. But having said that, I've said stupid things under pressure, I guess we all have  - the circumstances don't make them less stupid but they do make them understandable. It's very different when you're at home reading the forum than in the hectic show situation!

Alex, thank you for the link. You can read the white paper there, so there's plenty for people to get stuck into. Thanks!