Naim Audio Forum Archive

Posted on: 26 February 2012 by Guido Fawkes

Dustysox

I found your posts interesting and informative.

The forum needs posters like you to keep us sane.

So keep on keeping on.

All the best, Guy

Posted on: 26 February 2012 by Hook

Dustysox -

Like Harry says, I too apologize if anything I contributed has made you feel bad. And like Plinko says, I also value your forum contributions, and hope you will re-think "taking a back seat" for any period of time. IMO, this is all a pretty minor dust-up, and very easily corrected.

Adam -

Even if Phil had not been so kind as to keep us forum members informed, we would still have had the word "DAC" mentioned as an NDS upgrade in its specs section and, therefore, I think the amount of runaway chatter would likely have been exactly the same, if not greater (nature abhorring a vacuum and all...).

All -

IMO, this whole thing has clearly been blown out of proportion. Please indulge me for a moment, and allow me to state my understanding of things:

1) Mark's comment to Dustysox was made strictly in passing (i.e., you could try the nDAC for fun) and was not intended to be an official statement that the Naim DAC was an upgrade to the NDS.

2) The NDS/555PS is Naim's new top-o-the-line for network-based digital playback. Period, end of story. The only thing better is an NDS with (2) 555PS's. As a result, the NDS/555PS is expected to surpass the NDX->DAC/555PS.

3) The appearance of the word "DAC" in the NDS specs section is misleading at best (and more likely a simple mistake), and it will either be qualified (e.g., "an external DAC that the owner thinks sounds better than the internal dac of the NDS") or better still, removed.

Have I got it right? Because if I have, this whole event gets written off as much ado about nothing. I would certainly hate for it to be used as an example of why Naim employees should not participate directly in the forum. And especially at product launch times, because that's exactly when there is so much interest and so many questions!

Hook

Posted on: 26 February 2012 by Geoff P

I think I have just witnessed a 'Perfect Storm'

Posted on: 26 February 2012 by The Man With Nonaim

Having followed this thread from birth, I cannot help but come to the following conclusions :

1. The curent Naim DAC may or may not be an upgrade to the NDS; there's nothing wrong in using our ears as part of the decision making process.

2. Naim will bring out an upgraded DAC at some point in the future which presumably will improve the performace of the NDS - Doug G has pretty much let this one out of the bag.

3. Why the ranting over the number of boxes for the streamer ?. You can decide for yourself how many boxes you want for the appropriate level of performance. Nobody ever complains about the box count in an active system but they do marvel at its performance. As a well-known Scottish space traveller often said "you cannae change the laws of physics !"

Posted on: 26 February 2012 by pcstockton

Originally Posted by Dustysox:

In view of the passion/debate my comment has caused I think I'll take a back seat from posting for a while.

Sincerely,

George

PS: dont you go anywhere unless you want to. We all enjoy the conversation regardless of import.

Posted on: 27 February 2012 by 2roomsor1

Just looking on the main website. And under the upgrade section of the spec tab it lists the following at upgrades: 555ps and other supplies Hiline Power line on external supply NDac Is the nDAC a typo or something different. Ie would a hdx or ndx plus a ndac give the nds a run for its money. This product has me struggling to see a place for it on my stand. Not the price but the use. Ie you still need to rip so a better than ndac would be a more logical solution for me.

Posted on: 27 February 2012 by Phil Harris

Originally Posted by 2roomsor1:

Just looking on the main website. And under the upgrade section of the spec tab it lists the following at upgrades: 555ps and other supplies Hiline Power line on external supply NDac Is the nDAC a typo or something different. Ie would a hdx or ndx plus a ndac give the nds a run for its money. This product has me struggling to see a place for it on my stand. Not the price but the use. Ie you still need to rip so a better than ndac would be a more logical solution for me.

Hi - the exact "upgrades" text is:

"Power - External power supply required (XP5 XS, XPS, 555 PS all compatible). Upgrade via second Burndy lead for split power supply (555 PS only), second 555 PS power supply"

"Other - DAC, Hi-Line, Power-Line (on external power supply)"

The NDS has an S/PDIF out so that *IF* a better DAC comes out then it can be used to upgrade the NDS however this does not mean that the current standalone Naim DAC is an upgrade to the NDS or that the current standalone Naim DAC is better than the DAC that is in the NDS.

Cheers

Phil

Posted on: 27 February 2012 by Guido Fawkes

My understanding is you just need a Vortexbox/UnitiServe and add the two box NDS/555 for the top of the range Naim streaming solution ... you simply connect the NDS head unit to your Naim amplifier with a Hi-Line, the NDS Head unit to 555PS with two Burndy cables (one for digital and one for analogue) and connect the 555PS to the mains with a Power-LIne. The NDS head unit also needs an Ethernet connection in to your switch as does the Vortexbox/UnitiServe.

Then assuming your switch or router provides wireless connectivity, you just load up the nStream app and play Eldorado and live happily ever after.

No extra DACs (not even Daffy), no S/PDIF, no noisy USB or Firewire connections to a computer ...

Simples .... or .....

Well that is the theory ... hoping it just works in practice ....

Posted on: 27 February 2012 by Rosewind

2roomsor1

It only says "DAC" - no more.

I will expect the NDS + 555ps to better the Naim DAC/NDX + 555ps.
True or not? I and everyone else will have to wait for actual listening sessions to be absolutely sure.

Best wishes,
Peter

Posted on: 27 February 2012 by glevethan

Originally Posted by Rosewind:

I will expect the NDS + 555ps to better the Naim DAC/NDX + 555ps.
True or not? I and everyone else will have to wait for actual listening sessions to be absolutely sure.

Best wishes,
Peter

That seems to be the magic question - and - how does it stack up against the CD555 (or is it of CDS3 level)

Posted on: 27 February 2012 by glevethan

Originally Posted by Phil Harris:

this does not mean that the current standalone Naim DAC is an upgrade to the NDS or that the current standalone Naim DAC is better than the DAC that is in the NDS.

Cheers

Phil

Is the NDS DAC:

better than the nDAC?

equal to it?

inferior to it?

I believe that is the question on many minds.

Posted on: 27 February 2012 by Plinko

Originally Posted by Phil Harris:

Hi - the exact "upgrades" text is:

"Power - External power supply required (XP5 XS, XPS, 555 PS all compatible). Upgrade via second Burndy lead for split power supply (555 PS only), second 555 PS power supply"

"Other - DAC, Hi-Line, Power-Line (on external power supply)"

The NDS has an S/PDIF out so that *IF* a better DAC comes out then it can be used to upgrade the NDS however this does not mean that the current standalone Naim DAC is an upgrade to the NDS or that the current standalone Naim DAC is better than the DAC that is in the NDS.

Cheers

Phil

Phil,

Then convention for specifying upgrades is not consistent with the other products because other products reference specific Naim product names as upgrades.. Further, we were specifically told in this thread that "DAC" is the name of the Naim DAC product.

Finally, why would DAC be put on the page as an upgrade when such a product doesn't exist? When it exists, just add it to the page. As you say, there are no DAC upgrades so then why is it on the page. Do you agree?

Btw, congrats to you and Naim on the NDS. I am confident that it is great product, as it is.

Cheers,

P

Posted on: 27 February 2012 by Guido Fawkes

Surely the Naim site speaks of none other, but the DAC that is yet to come. By looking in to the teeming circuitry and the infinite delta streams of future probability, we see that there must one day come a DAC whose merest operational parameters no current DAC designer can calculate, but which it will be their fate eventually to design.

With apologies to the late great Douglas Adams.

Posted on: 27 February 2012 by 2roomsor1

But why say dac in a wider sense? Should it not be interconnect instead of hiline? So 2 outcomes based on the fact that naim would not advertise others interconnects and would not detail a other manufactures dac 1 it is the DAC currently out there 2 there is a new dac to come. Do I have to wait till Bristol 2013 for a dac upgrade?

Posted on: 27 February 2012 by Rosewind

The "extra" output may be used for a DAC or a recorder or whatever.

Splitting hairs, mincing words or fly fxxxxng (sorry all, that IS the rather explicit term in a direct translation from my Danish vernacular) won't be of much use at this point.

Que sera, sera. That even goes for the much anticipated NDS

Peter

Posted on: 27 February 2012 by KRM

So, if I buy an NDS and want to upgrade it with a better power supply than my XPS is the Naim website recommending the currently available 555 PS or a better 555 PS if one comes out in the future?

:-)

Keith

Posted on: 27 February 2012 by pcstockton

Originally Posted by 2roomsor1:

But why say dac in a wider sense?

I think they are referring to the Naim DAC, which is called the "DAC". I cant imagine they would propose going outside for something better.

Posted on: 27 February 2012 by Martin_C

Originally Posted by Guido Fawkes:

Surely the Naim site speaks of none other, but the DAC that is yet to come. By looking in to the teeming circuitry and the infinite delta streams of future probability, we see that there must one day come a DAC whose merest operational parameters no current DAC designer can calculate, but which it will be their fate eventually to design.

With apologies to the late great Douglas Adams.

presumably operating at 42 bit?

Posted on: 27 February 2012 by Guido Fawkes

Posted on: 27 February 2012 by AMA

Originally Posted by AllenB:

We are going to get a Naim solution that really can be pitched up against the Linn KDS, regardless of preference.

If you mean price-wise -- yes, it's there already.

Iif you mean sonic-wise -- we have yet to check this ...

Posted on: 27 February 2012 by AMA

Originally Posted by pcstockton:

Originally Posted by 2roomsor1:

But why say dac in a wider sense?

I think they are referring to the Naim DAC, which is called the "DAC". I cant imagine they would propose going outside for something better.

Which could be a limitation of your imagination and experience with non-Naim DACs.

Posted on: 28 February 2012 by Mr Frog

Seems crystal clear to me

If you buy the NDS, the built in internal DAC is better than using the NDS through the external Naim DAC (and it should be for the cost of the unit!)

If you already own the Naim DAC and invest in the brand new NDS, the external DAC will be surplus to requirements - and make the NDS sound inferior if used with it

So, unless you need all those extra inputs on the Naim DAC, simply get shut of it - you shouldn't use it with the NDS

The point about Naim mentioning "DAC" as a possible upgrade on their website is not an issue. In my opinion it just refers to the fact that there is a digital output from the NDS that can be used in the future with "A" DAC of some description - but not the current one!!!!

It is merely a facility and feature in the spec to make the NDS futureproof in the event that a DAC product becomes available that outperforms its on board built in DAC. It does not refer to the currently available £2K Naim DAC.

Now, the important issue should be whether the NDS (with whatever external PSU) is now the king of streamers .... and for those Linn lovers, better than the Klimax DS

Posted on: 28 February 2012 by Hook

Originally Posted by Mr Frog:

Seems crystal clear to me

If you buy the NDS, the built in internal DAC is better than using the NDS through the external Naim DAC (and it should be for the cost of the unit!)

I concur that this appears to be Naim's intent. That is not, however, what was demo'ed at the Bristol show. So, until we actually hear the results of some comparisons between NDS/555PS and NDX->nDAC/555PS, all we can do is assume (and hope) that this is true. My gut tells me it is, but my brain says wait and see...

If you already own the Naim DAC and invest in the brand new NDS, the external DAC will be surplus to requirements - and make the NDS sound inferior if used with it

So, unless you need all those extra inputs on the Naim DAC, simply get shut of it - you shouldn't use it with the NDS

Again, this appears to be Naim's intent and, personally, I hope it is true.

The point about Naim mentioning "DAC" as a possible upgrade on their website is not an issue. In my opinion it just refers to the fact that there is a digital output from the NDS that can be used in the future with "A" DAC of some description - but not the current one!!!!

It is merely a facility and feature in the spec to make the NDS futureproof in the event that a DAC product becomes available that outperforms its on board built in DAC. It does not refer to the currently available £2K Naim DAC.

Naim is guilty of overloading the term DAC. They should have explicitly said "an external DAC of your choosing", or "any DAC you think sounds better" or the like. Leaving it to our imaginations what they intended by using the term "DAC" was a mistake. If you use the search facility, you'll find a recent rant of mine regarding the inconsistent use of the terms: Naim Dac, nDAC, DAC and dac. And for those who remember the Flintstones, the password is: Ack ack a dack, dack dack a ack.

Now, the important issue should be whether the NDS (with whatever external PSU) is now the king of streamers .... and for those Linn lovers, better than the Klimax DS.

We'll see. I am interested only in whether or not the NDS/555PS beats the NDX->DAC/555PS by a wide enough margin to earn my immediate purchase dollars. If it only beats it by a small margin, I would be more likely stand pat, and wait for the year or so it will take for Naim to deliver a successor to the nDAC.

It is fun to debate NDS versus KDS/1 here, and I enjoy the spirited give and take as much as anyone. But at end of the day, the KDS/1 is not (and the KDS/2 and 3 never will be) an option for me. I already own the 555PS, and my local Linn dealer is not going to make me a good enough deal (or for that matter, any deal at all) on a trade-in of my Naim kit for the Linn. I would have to sell all three components, and then come up with the difference in cash to move to Linn. A minor bump in sound quality is simply isn't worth the effort. Not in the time it would take, nor in the money it would cost, nor in the marginal gain in sound quality I would hear. Also, it would appear that some here really need for Linn to retain these bragging rights, and I would not wish for them to be sad.

Well, not much anyway.

Posted on: 28 February 2012 by 2roomsor1

So if I want to upgrade my nDAC & 555ps running from a hdx. I would and up with a hdx and a nds on the same rack. I assume a digital link would be used rather than the network. It does not seem logical I just hope a new dac will surface Also. A point of interest. Could a nds run with 2 xps's

Posted on: 28 February 2012 by AMA

Originally Posted by AllenB:

So no nervousness here, sonically or cost. How about you?

Allen

Not nervous at all -- I'm going to run a fair contest and keep a winner

But to put things right -- nDAC/555PS is good on its own even when run against a KDS.

I can easily forecast a great success for NDS/555PS.

New NDS Streamer

Posted by: 0rangutan on 30 January 2012