New NDS Streamer

You have an antique table especially to keep French-dressing in? 

Wow ... that is impressive 

French-dressing . . .

Laughed all the way home tonight, hearing Guy's response in the voice of Jack Benny.  Nick

Will it make more music? 

Even better in the voice of Groucho Marx .... :-)

Tog

Hi, Tog,

You have been less present in these parts of late, missed. 

I'd rather have a laugh about furniture than speculate (for very long, anyway) about the next component requiring one or two expensive power supplies to make it play properly.

Regards,

Nick

Geoff,

Nearly a week in and having a great time. The KDS is the best digital source I have EVER heard.

I also managed to reclaim a pair of TDL Studio 1 speakers I used to own 15 years ago from my Brother in law. So after KDS installation I also slipped these in for a listen and sidelined the  Alleas.

Such fun and i can't believe how bloody good they are.

Further updates to follow when I have eaten.

ttfn

RR

I may be mistaken, but as far as I can understand KDS is priced above a coming NDS/ 555PS? To equal the KDS price NDS head unit has to cost UKP 9000? Not that comparable, are they?

That said, I read this thread with great interest. Thanks

S

Stover

Herein lies the problem with the upcoming NDS and , IMHO, Naim's digital strategy.

At present the current "top dog" in Naim streaming is a NDX-nDac-555PS.  There is even some talk that adding a fourth box to this equation, an additional 555PS on the NDX, takes performance even higher.  The three box solution (here in the US) prices at at a whisker less than a Klimax DS/1.  The four box solution FAR exceeds the cost of the Linn.

So where will the NDS place, how will it price out, and what power supplies will it require?  Rumblings seem to indicate that it will become the top end solution for Naim - at the present time.  If so than what happens to the four box solution I alluded to above?  Will the NDS price above or below it?  If it prices below it what about everyone who bought into the more expensive (Klimax busting price) and lesser performing original NDX four box solution?

Doug Graham's interview specificaly mentioned there would be yet more high end ND's developed (NDS555?) and a better DAC to come (nDac2?).  At what price will these solutions come in at?  The NDX/555PS/nDac/555PS solution currently costs $28,000 - will a NDS555 cost $40k? $50k?  There are three DS boxes - good, better, best.  The best costs about $22k - stop- thats it.  No power supplies to buy  - nothing else.  When an improvement is made it is retrofittable to bring it up to current spec.  Witness the Dynamik power supply upgrade for the original Klimax DS priced at a "whopping" $675 while providing a significant boost in performance.

This is where I (and obviously many others based upon Richard Lord's thread in this same forum) remain bewildered by the current digital product range and the roadmap going forward.

Perhaps that is why many, such as Red Rooster and Geoff (and many others "outed" and not), seem to have already (or will be) abandoning ship and moving on.   Things are too confusing, changing to frequently, and do not seem to have a purpose or endpoint (other than selling more expensive power supplies).  Honestly, the idea of putting a $3350 nDac on the market however saying that "if you REALLY want to make it sound good than you need to add a $9350 power supply" is getting a bit old (at least in my book).

Just my opinion.

Best

Gregg

PS  I guess at this point you might as well add my name to that of Red Rooster and Geoff (and others).  Notwithstanding the introduction of the NDS in two weeks time I have decided to replace my CD555 with a new Klimax.  I look forward to the impending fun.

Gregg

Thoughtful and nicely said. 

Hi Gregg -

I have a very different view.

I started off with the DAC, and enjoyed it on its own for 6 months before funds allowed me to upgrade with the XPS-2.   Using today's list prices (less than what I paid at the time), I would have been into it for $9240.  IMO, this is a level where most folks, using an SB Touch or a Mac's optical or the like, can easily stop, as the DAC/XPS-2 is a wonderful combination.

About 6 months later, my dealer offered my a great trade in on a 555PS, basically paying the difference between the XPS-2 and the 555PS.  I was now in it for $12,990, and over the moon with the sound quality.  A year and half later, the NDX came out.  It caught me at a weak moment, as I had been fighting OS and app upgrade issues with my digital source, a DIY PC, and I decided that having something more reliable, and even better sounding, was worth it.   I am now into the 3 boxes for $18,135.

The thought of adding a PS to the NDX front end has never crossed my mind (even though AllenB has reported that there are gains to be had).   How does one go beyond ecstatic?  Because that's where I am currently at!  As far I am concerned, I have a digital setup that competes with the KDS/1, and at a lower cost.   But more importantly, it was a solution that I could grow into, over time, as funds allowed.  TBH, if my only choice was a $22k KDS/1 or nothing, then today I would still have nothing.

So mine, I think, is a story of the Naim upgrade path working well.  Naim has provided me with the options and stepping stones to build a system -- over time -- that suited both my ears and my checkbook.  We'll see what the selling price of the NDS is later this month, but I fully expect the NDS/555PS to compete very well with the KDS/1.   If it sells for $12k or less, then the 2 box combo will even cost less than the KDS/1.   Can't wait to hear the results of the first side-by-side demos!

And, if NDS is all I expect it to be, then I will definitely compare it to what I've got, and decide if trading in the NDX/DAC for the NDS makes good sense.

As with you, this is just my opinion, and others will have to decide what makes sense for them.

Hook

PS - Have only heard the KDS/0, and only in an all Linn setup...and was not impressed.  But I do understand that the KDS/1 was a big improvement, and I have no doubt that those who now own one have a great digital front end for their Naim reference-level setups.

PPS - Just curious, and of course, do whatever you want, but given you've waited and talked about it for this long, why wouldn't you now wait until after the NDS is released and give the NDS/555PS a listen before committing to the KDS/1?   Would have thought that with you already owning a 555PS, it would make demoing an easy thing to do.

I just looked at the Scottish website. Stunning simplicity of approach. Three levels/options, no 6u11$!+.

Hook

First off I am happy you are enjoying your NDX/nDac/555PS - after all that is what this is all about.

To reply to some of your comments above:

It is impossible for the NDS/555PS to come in at the price you have mentioned.  The 555PS is $9350 while the NDX is $5600.  The NDS/555PS will definitely be more than the $15,000 that the NDX/555PS currently costs.  It will also cost more than the $18,000 you have invested in the NDX/nDac/555PS as Naim has said that the NDS will be their premier digital solution.  My guess is $20,000 at a bare minimum (closer to what the CDS3/XPS2 used to cost).  It most likely will be even higher.  As such a Klimax DS at $22,000 will end up costing the same or less.  When the mythical NDS555 comes out it will most likely be in CD555 territory - $30,000 if not more.

As for why I did not wait for the NDS (already owning a 555PS) - I have been unhappy with the direction of the digital strategy over the last several years.  HDX-NDX-ND5XS-NDS-nDac-Uniti-UnitiQute-SuperUniti-UnitiServe and all of the requisite power supplies XP5S-XPS2-555PS - too be quite honest I am CONFUSED.  One does not even hear any more of the HDX even though it has only been out for 2 (or3) years?  Too many products !

Finally Linn, since the introduction of the Klimax project, have taken an open source approach to software.  When the HDX came out Naim claimed to have come up with a proprietary way of ripping CD's that was superior to all other solutions in the market.  To quote our English friends - Bollocks.  It has since come out that Naim bought  the ripping software from a UK company.  It was preposterous to claim that they were able to best software ripping solutions and technology that major players and open source projects (FLAC) have spent fortunes on developing.  Even small software developers such as those who produce the EAC and DBpoweramp ripping solutions are acknowledged as having amongst the best ripping software on the market.

With Linn everything is open source.  There are a myriad of software media servers and software control points to use with computers, ipods, iphones, and iPads - all which work with the DS series.  With Naim digital products one is dependent on Naim to come up with the NStream application.  Too frequently I have seen software updates and solutions promised - only to be delayed by 6 months or more.  I have seen the NDX ship only to have replacement boards which handle higher bit rate streams be announced several months later.  The NDX came out more than a year after the nDac yet Naim admitted that the internal DAC was still inferior to the nDac. 

To answer your question as to why I did not wait - I simply have lost confidence - and I have also seen the price of CD555's (and other CD players) plummet in the process.  Time to get out before the floodgates open.  I have spoken to other CD555 owners who are now running Klimax's - I am confident in my decision.  Perhaps when the mythical NDS555 comes out I will reevaluate the situation however I do not see that happening for quite a while.  If it does come out sooner - I will be glad not to have taken the plunge with the NDS only to see it rather quickly supplanted by a superior product.

One more thing - when the Klimax DS was replaced with the new Klimax DS/1 Linn offered a program to all DS owners to send their units in so that they could be brought up to CURRENT SPEC  KDS/1 standards - at an extremely reasonable price.  I am confident that this policy will continue forward.  The investment some made back in 2007 with the original Klimax has been protected  - and will continue to be.

After masses of streaming products, we will finally see the "Top-of-the-line".  

Hopefully, there will be serious improvement (or breakthough) on the sound, but not boxes soluation (NDS+555PS into nDAC+555PS). I have had enough boxes. 

Tempted by the good comments, I recently borrowed a KDS (with all the upgrades) from my friend. After a full afternoon listening and evulation with my freinds (mostly on 16/44.1), the KDS beat both CD555 and Unitiserver+Antelope DAC with 10M Ribidium Clock! It is the best ditigal source I have ever heard!  We all found the KDS is more natural and analogue, and the dynamic and detail is not comparable with CD which makes CD555 sounded compressed. Through the KDS we also found that songs ripped by the Unitiserver is better with deeper soundstage, and it is the first time I heard the 552 sounds so good and natural. The 552 really has so much potential!

Anticipating for the NDS, and the bottom line is whehter it can beat (or as good as) the one beautiful box souliation - KDS!

Ken

Interesting thoughts Gregg.

My take on NAIM is the same as Hook as well. As great as the KDS/1 is, here in Australia it is a A$24,600 player. No way could I EVER afford that in one purchase. 

I have upgraded my NAIM source over several years & started with a CDX2 then settled with a CDX2 / 555PS for quite a while, then went HDX/555PS - now have HDX/nDAC/555PS. Current source expensive ? - hell yes. But to ease the pain - not as expensive over several years of upgrades as/when I could afford it though. This is where NAIM excells IMHO, their products are upgradeable with real / usefull upgrades via PS units. Especially the superb 555PS , which hopefully is usable with the NDS. 

However Gregg, I do agree though NAIM streaming /  HDD products are very confusing - especially to new punters looking at NAIM -  there is just too many. I like to think I am an experienced NAIM customer - even I scratch my head with this product lineup.

Cheers,

Pete

My two cents worth - like other people - I'll get my flame proof suit out!

My suspicion is that some of the problems are down to changes in direction and people using things which were not initially meant to go together - or shows signs of a lack of up front thought - I am not sure which.  Either way - I expect some people suffering as at some point someone needs to take all these products and trim the offering list back to something manageable.

Those thoughts are around things like the HDX / NDX - the servers seem to have been overtaken by the streamers.

Also the NDX / Power Supply / nDac / Power Supply - seems illogical to me.  It feels as though the nDac was either an after thought or was never meant to go with the NDX.

Andrew,

The nDAC is such a massive improvement over the internal HDX DAC that it is not funny.

As a NDX upgrade possibly not so much better as different.  

Andrew, the thought might be illogical, the performance is definitely breathtaking with certain systems, speakers and rooms though.

I guess following the mantra of only do something if the replay performance becomes noticeably more satisfying, if you find the ndac provides no advantage with your system, speakers and room, you need not go for it, and becomfortable you have an optimum system with your NDX output.

Therefore one logical advantage is perhaps it allows you to tune the performance to match your needs. Either way you have a fantastic way to listen to your probably fast growing CD collection via rips. 

Its funny since I opted for my NDX, my CD buying has shot through the roof... CD is now so easy with streaming, and the choice of content has never been better.....

i must haave been one of the first to purchase th dac.i thought it would be a geat hub for my system.i run cd/streamer/dab through it.since then ive added the 5 streamer and the 5 psu to dac.this combo is my final system due to cost.  its far better than cd which i rarely play now.

my route to streaming was sonos digital out/marantz 7000 ,at £4oo is is the best buy,cyrusx ,then the naim.

          listened to linn thought at the time they were the tops but expensive. at that time linn used the ripnas which i bought and it as been flawless ripping over 300 cds without one issue

glad cd is dieing on its feet,

Hi Rich,

This post is for Max

I am an avid streaming music user too, and don't think that I would own a CD player again, as it doesn't suit my listening style. But, I have to say, that I don't feel CD is dying on it's feet at all, after all so many people said that about Vinyl, and it's still here, and if executed correctly, still sounds amazing!

The CD is going to be around for a long, long time, and I am sure most of owners of Naim CDP feel the same.

Kind regards

Jo

HIi Jo,  the choice on CD is fast growing globally. It's a great time to be into CD if you love recorded music. It certainly brings so much enjoyment and enlightenment into my life. Most part of the world now create CDs and the choice  and diversity is superb ( even though imports can cost a little more). I am appreciating central Africa acoustic music (on CD) at the moment, and it's FANTASTIC! as well independent CDs from English folk groups, need to practice for the floor singing sessions..

Simon

As well as ex owners of Naim CDPs who have gone to streaming. Where else would we get 99% of our music from?

NDS will not be the top level streamer I'm sure. But it will suit me (if it's any good) and I think a lot of us have been waiting for this.

I don't like to rubbish the competition but there is a tendency to get the sheep brand out (even in here) when we disregard the sacred KDS. Which I've heard on more than one occasion - but not at home. Don't (subjectively) like it at all. Overpriced white goods. There, I've said it. May I burn in hell. Nice user interface, but so what?

I'm not so sure about the future of CD. Just made the switch to streaming with a new NDX, and acquired Drums Between the Bells in 24/96 and woah, how limited 16/44 seems now. I can't see any reason why 24/96 etc won't become more and more commonly available. Internet distribution should become standard for most people before long and supposedly most music is recorded in 24bit nowadays anyway, so it shouldn't be too hard to throw a 24bit version out there. Sure the market will likely remain a niche one as a minority of consumers have the level of hardware that will show a worthwhile difference, but it does exist and should allow a premium to be charged for more or less the same product. Perhaps I'm dreaming...

I'm sure it will. But it won't be any time soon. The release rate of HiRes material has been pitiful. I can't help wondering if it's considered too niche and the labels are waiting for the next big mass market, LowRes gimmick. The iPod driven paradigm shift didn't open any flood gates for me because 16/44 is the lowest quality I will pay money for or listen to at home. It's different in the car.

Naim sure are getting roasting on here at the moment for the new product line... The way I see it they haven't done too much wrong. Looks like the ND line is set to expand to become more or less a straight equivalent of the CD player lineup. The situation with the power supplies is just the same as it was with the CD players... seems the NDac is where it starts to get a bit confusing. Perhaps for the sake of simplicity Naim would have been better off not stating that the NDac is an upgrade for the NDX/HDX etc and aimed it more at the Sonos etc users. Secondly if the NDS had come out at the same time as the NDX, perhaps folks on here would have been less inclined to look at the more complex configurations ie. NDX/PS/NDac/PS and would instead have settled for a two box NDS/PS. Personally I think much of the talk on here about all this has tended towards whinging... Naim don't force anyone to add an NDac to their NDX... sure they give many options, but it is of course up to the individual. I have acquired an NDX which I plan to run bare for the foreseeable future as I am not interested in more boxes. However I have no problem with the fact that Naim suggest options should I want to upgrade. The all-in-one players make sense. The HDX, less so now that the UnityServe & NDX exists. Imagine the outrage from Sonos users if Naim hadn't made the NDac! That would have kept things simple, but still people would not have been happy. The digital pre-amp option may have merit but for Naim to have done that it would have required a severe reengineering of the entire range. However it does seem a tad absurd having a pre-amp with so many inputs with so much now coming straight through my NDX. Looks as though the analogue pre-amp line-up is set to continue much the same as it always has, however perhaps it is time to cull a few of the analogue inputs? Three inputs... One for Vinyl, one for a digital front end, and one spare? That should make the pre-amps a bit cheaper