New NDS Streamer

Posted by: 0rangutan on 30 January 2012

See Doug Graham interview on the audiostream.com site:

"In February we will launch our top-of-the-line NDS streaming network player at the Bristol Sound and Vision Show".

Posted on: 11 February 2012 by Red Rooster

Originally Posted by glevethan:

Originally Posted by Hook:

I am now into the 3 boxes for $18,135.

The thought of adding a PS to the NDX front end has never crossed my mind (even though AllenB has reported that there are gains to be had).

We'll see what the selling price of the NDS is later this month... If it sells for $12k or less, then the 2 box combo will even cost less than the KDS/1.

PPS - Just curious, and of course, do whatever you want, but given you've waited and talked about it for this long, why wouldn't you now wait until after the NDS is released and give the NDS/555PS a listen before committing to the KDS/1? Would have thought that with you already owning a 555PS, it would make demoing an easy thing to do.

Hook

First off I am happy you are enjoying your NDX/nDac/555PS - after all that is what this is all about.

To reply to some of your comments above:

It is impossible for the NDS/555PS to come in at the price you have mentioned. The 555PS is $9350 while the NDX is $5600. The NDS/555PS will definitely be more than the $15,000 that the NDX/555PS currently costs. It will also cost more than the $18,000 you have invested in the NDX/nDac/555PS as Naim has said that the NDS will be their premier digital solution. My guess is $20,000 at a bare minimum (closer to what the CDS3/XPS2 used to cost). It most likely will be even higher. As such a Klimax DS at $22,000 will end up costing the same or less. When the mythical NDS555 comes out it will most likely be in CD555 territory - $30,000 if not more.

As for why I did not wait for the NDS (already owning a 555PS) - I have been unhappy with the direction of the digital strategy over the last several years. HDX-NDX-ND5XS-NDS-nDac-Uniti-UnitiQute-SuperUniti-UnitiServe and all of the requisite power supplies XP5S-XPS2-555PS - too be quite honest I am CONFUSED. One does not even hear any more of the HDX even though it has only been out for 2 (or3) years? Too many products !

Finally Linn, since the introduction of the Klimax project, have taken an open source approach to software. When the HDX came out Naim claimed to have come up with a proprietary way of ripping CD's that was superior to all other solutions in the market. To quote our English friends - Bollocks. It has since come out that Naim bought the ripping software from a UK company. It was preposterous to claim that they were able to best software ripping solutions and technology that major players and open source projects (FLAC) have spent fortunes on developing. Even small software developers such as those who produce the EAC and DBpoweramp ripping solutions are acknowledged as having amongst the best ripping software on the market.

With Linn everything is open source. There are a myriad of software media servers and software control points to use with computers, ipods, iphones, and iPads - all which work with the DS series. With Naim digital products one is dependent on Naim to come up with the NStream application. Too frequently I have seen software updates and solutions promised - only to be delayed by 6 months or more. I have seen the NDX ship only to have replacement boards which handle higher bit rate streams be announced several months later. The NDX came out more than a year after the nDac yet Naim admitted that the internal DAC was still inferior to the nDac.

To answer your question as to why I did not wait - I simply have lost confidence - and I have also seen the price of CD555's (and other CD players) plummet in the process. Time to get out before the floodgates open. I have spoken to other CD555 owners who are now running Klimax's - I am confident in my decision. Perhaps when the mythical NDS555 comes out I will reevaluate the situation however I do not see that happening for quite a while. If it does come out sooner - I will be glad not to have taken the plunge with the NDS only to see it rather quickly supplanted by a superior product.

One more thing - when the Klimax DS was replaced with the new Klimax DS/1 Linn offered a program to all DS owners to send their units in so that they could be brought up to CURRENT SPEC KDS/1 standards - at an extremely reasonable price. I am confident that this policy will continue forward. The investment some made back in 2007 with the original Klimax has been protected - and will continue to be.

Hi,

You beat me to it and rather than just write +1, I thought I would say well written. You are clearly on exactly the same wavelength as myself.

My next move will be to my aspired to, Kudos C30's in WAF approved Black Ash. Very 80's but she loves black speakers and who am I to argue.

I think there's a new club developing of Linn Streamer, Naim Reference kit and Kudos Loudpeakers. Marriage made in heaven if you ask me.

p.s I love Titans but too pricey for me and WAF is less than C30. Bit tempted to wait for the rumoured "mini" Titans though.

ttfn

Posted on: 11 February 2012 by AMA

PS - Have only heard the KDS/0, and only in an all Linn setup...and was not impressed. But I do understand that the KDS/1 was a big improvement, and I have no doubt that those who now own one have a great digital front end for their Naim reference-level setups.

Hook, listening for KDS in all-Linn setup is not a fair test if you don't favor a Linn sound signature.

KDS is possibly the most Naimish product ever came from a Linn factory. It's actually more Naimish than many original hi-class Naim sources I have heard. You should try it in all-Naim setup to value it properly in a familiar sonic signature. KDS/1 is massively better than everything I have ever heard from any other brand. There is only one ( and rather small) point where KDS/1 is still behind nDAC/555PS in my books -- and it doesn't take much from the music to be honest.

The truth is that Linn is one step ahead of Naim in streamers -- but it might be not lasting long.

I shall try to give a fair trial to NDS against my KDS/1 and I shall be happy to report if it takes the front seat in my main system.

Posted on: 11 February 2012 by Geoff P

Originally Posted by AllenB:

I feel the LinnDS clan are getting a little jittery!

Let's try and get a couple of things straight here. The clue is in the 'naim', the NDS will be priced around the same as the CDS3 was, same as the NDX is around the same price as the CDX2. An NDS/555PS will be around the same price (roughly speaking give or take a grand or two ) as the KDS. At that level of outlay, does the actual price difference matter too much?

It's also rumoured that the NDS/555PS will better the CD555.

Now if so, that will make things very interesting.

Allen

Hi Allen

I don't think jittery is the right word. I would say maybe a tad complacent. I am certainly very happy with my choice of the KDS/1 which does all the things AMA alludes to in comparison with the 7 different Naim systems with CD555's I have been kindly invited to hear over time.

Naim had better get a better result than the CD555 to stand a chance, KDS/1 as the competitor you nominate does that very successfully for sure.

It is important though for those of us who wish to jump ship from Naim to have a continuing ready market in which to trade in our 555PS's and other Naim digital source kit, so it is pleasing to note a group of folk are remaining dedicated to Naim come hell or high water, from which we can benefit.

Regards

Geoff

Posted on: 11 February 2012 by meissmar

Somtimes, I don't understand what all the complaining is about. 4 boxes for optimum? You don't have to do this. Who says that you have to put a PS on your NDX and a PS on your nDac? Sure you have the option, and Naim users want to try all possibilities, but at some point you should be able to say stop if it is too much for you. Remember that a NDX with a XPS or 555PS is a very fine product and better that a CDS is certain aspects.
I am one of those guys who only uses the NDX with a XPS2 and not through the nDac, even though I have one, because I prefer it without in musical terms. So I agree that the nDac seems to be designed for other sources, not for the streamers. I use it for sat, DVD, PS3 etc. There it is great.
Like someone else already said, you can upgrade in smaller steps without loosing any money. Some people have gone this route:
nDac
nDac-PS
NDX-nDac-PS
NDX-PS-nDac-PS
So you have gone from a 3000,- € source to a 20.000,- € source in steps WITHOUT loosing money with each step! If you want to do this with a Linn source:
Majik DS
Akurate DS
Klimax DS
That means with every upgrade you have to pay the full new box and loose money for your trade-in. And the new ADS/1 is also much better than the old one, but there is no way to upgrade it or prevent loosing money if you want to go to the new one.

Sometimes it is just too easy to get lost in the upgrade hype with a Naim system, because its rather easy to upgrade. But remember, you don't have to do everything that is possible. I don't think that Naim intended to have the NDX as a pure digital source through the nDac with each having it's own power supply box. In the past the CD players didn't have a dig-out, because Naim's philosophy was that the digital should be made analog as fast a possible. From what I hear when going from NDX through the nDac I agree. It is clearer and more forward, but it is also less musical to my ears.

And I agree that the interface feels better on the Linns, but there is also one thing that the ntream does which Linn can't: Random playback of all tracks in one genre. I really missed that when I tried a Linn DS at home. Also, I prefer the way you can select any radio station on the Naim. On Linns you have to do that externally and create an account you have to manage. So please don't just complain about what the Linns might do better, there are also disadvantages depending how you prefer to use your system.

Mario

Posted on: 11 February 2012 by Richard Lord

Originally Posted by glevethan:

Geoff

And....according to the interview the new NDS is still not going to be the top of the line offering. The nDac will also be eventually improved upon.

As such if one purchases the NDS (and as some have SPECULATED it will be a two box affair with the Dac built in) then eventually it will be "bested" by a new and improved Dac (nDac2) and a top of the line player (ND555). So we still are not there yet.

Too confusing - a single box from the competition, currently available in a good-better-best form, and always available to be factory upgraded when new developments arise - sounds pretty good to me.

Gregg

I agree. Simples! Too many boxes/options confuses the customer. I am/was in the market to upgrade, but it is so confusing I hesitated . Then I was made an offer I cannot refuse by a non Naim retailer to upgrade my speakers. Guess what? I have succombed and I do not regret it.

Richard

Posted on: 11 February 2012 by Geoff P

Very reasonable Allen and I fully agree with your points

I do believe we should not hope for marvellous stunning improvements in to the future beyond the anticipated Naim NDS solution and the top Linn.

I have just posted a separate thread;

https://forums.naimaudio.com/di...nt/13533848855891866

For discussion of this point which you might like to comment on.

regards

Geoff

Posted on: 11 February 2012 by Harry

Originally Posted by AllenB:

It's also rumoured that the NDS/555PS will better the CD555.

Interesting. Who/where? Or is it an inside track?

Posted on: 11 February 2012 by glevethan

Originally Posted by Harry:

Originally Posted by AllenB:

It's also rumoured that the NDS/555PS will better the CD555.

Interesting. Who/where? Or is it an inside track?

Yes - I also find that a bit strange. Maybe someone needs to put that out to stop all the defectors to the Klimax DS camp

Posted on: 11 February 2012 by Harry

Originally Posted by AllenB:

Oh come on guys! Discretion and all that, I can't say where I heard this, but I do trust what I have heard.

I though maybe I'd missed something written or quoted somewhere. If it's an inside track, fair enough. Totally understand. I don't know when I'll get to hear one properly but I'm sure looking forward to meeting it.

My usual reliable sources (and they have been very reliable) won't even confirm the mystery product is the NDS, despite the controlled release of information. Could be they'll have more to say when I see them next week, now it's been outed.

Posted on: 11 February 2012 by Hook

You need better sources Harry! :-) Mine have confirmed not only that Doug spoke the truth, but also that the NDS would support both the XPS-2 and 555PS power supplies! Oh dear, I fear the worst for my bruised and battered checkbook!! Hook

Posted on: 12 February 2012 by Simon-in-Suffolk

Hi Allen, interesting post, BTW I have been playing with powersupplies into the NDX->NDAC and by using Belden mains cable and extensive RFIchokes on a DC1 interconnect, between NDX and NDAC, I can effectively achieve same performance as adding extra offboard NDX powersupply as long as; all unused digital inputs disabled, info screen blanked, and internal DAC disabled. I guess the XPS might help here providing the same sonic performance with these features enabled? But I am still not convinced.... I suspect the forthcoming NDS will achieve the same result without all these tweaks.... We'll have to wait and hear...:-)

Simon

Posted on: 12 February 2012 by AMA

Originally Posted by Simon-in-Suffolk:

I suspect the forthcoming NDS will achieve the same result without all these tweaks....

I'm afraid Simon that higher end Naim products used to be more and more sensitive to tweaks

Posted on: 12 February 2012 by Harry

Originally Posted by Hook:

Oh dear, I fear the worst for my bruised and battered checkbook!! Hook

Mine's going on steriods.

Course, haven't heard it yet!

Posted on: 12 February 2012 by Richard Lord

Something I notice that has not been mentioned here in Naim's favour: you can send your 30 year old Naim box back for service and Naim will cheerfully service it and bring it back to "new" status. This is a remarkable thing. It is one of the reasons why, despite my criticism of present policies, I love the brand.

Just to put this into perspective, I have been assured this is NOT the policy of the Scottish rival. After a set number of years, maybe seven, but certainly not over ten, any fault with your amp or whatever and you are on your own.

This may not be important to you, but is of enormous importance to me. I really hope Naim never drop this policy. It suggests long term integrity of the brand, even if I never get to test it.

Richard

Posted on: 12 February 2012 by AMA

Originally Posted by Richard Lord:

Just to put this into perspective, I have been assured this is NOT the policy of the Scottish rival.

Sure, this is NOT. The scottish rival is offering much better upgrade program today.

Posted on: 13 February 2012 by james n

AMA - this is true of some of the older products that Linn could / would not service or repair. Thankfully Linn did do a bit of a turnaround a few years back when it realised who its true customers were, rather than chasing the luxury yacht and car audio market.

Posted on: 13 February 2012 by Richard Lord

Originally Posted by AMA:

Originally Posted by Richard Lord:

Just to put this into perspective, I have been assured this is NOT the policy of the Scottish rival.

Sure, this is NOT. The scottish rival is offering much better upgrade program today.

An upgrade program is fine in the short term, but what about ten years down the line?

Richard

Posted on: 13 February 2012 by AMA

I agree that long-term support from Naim is unique.

Not sure if anyone else is doing this -- possibly, someone across the pool (like McIntosh).

What I say is that modern upgrade program from Linn is extremely lucrative.

They offer Dynamic PS upgrade for something like 700 $ and you get a substantial gain in performance -- equivalent to Naim XPS.

The offer on KDS->KDS/1 is also amazing.

Their SW support is superb (and I remember how poor it was several years back when the first DS range was released).

Today we can not say that Linn does not care about customers at all.

Both companies have their own upgrade/support policies.

Posted on: 13 February 2012 by AMA

Originally Posted by AllenB:

un-beknowing (even though they were asked) that the NDS was imminent.

Allen, common -- we all knew it was imminent. We even gave it a name before Naim did it

When we were saying they possibly not working on it we were obviously teasing Naim to warm up demand

Posted on: 13 February 2012 by Phil Harris

Just wanted to say guys that it's been fun skimming through this - would love to play "Warmer / Colder" with you on the discussion but I'm afraid that none of us would be allowed...

...all I'll say on the matter is I look forward to reading this thread after the Bristol show.

Phil

Posted on: 13 February 2012 by Hook

The first KDS/1 versus HDS/555PS comparisons should be a lot of fun, but I suspect we are entering the territory where it will be pretty hard to be entirely objective. Unless Naim drops the ball, which I very seriously doubt they will, users will have yet another reference-level option to consider. //////My guess is that we will not be talking in terms of absolute better and worse, and instead, we will be trying to describe subtle nuances and different "voicings" and such. But what a bright future! My hope is that, over time, this highest level of digital replay becomes more affordable, and more accessible to all. //////Hook //////PS - Until such time as Hoop-La fixes the forum for iPad use, I think I am going to use six slashes to show my intention of a new paragraph, and hope that it makes my iPad posts slightly more readable.

Posted on: 13 February 2012 by Zinger

Not sure how many other companies do it ... But the idea of having the original manufacturer servicing/reconditioning/recapping old gear is very attractive to me

Posted on: 13 February 2012 by Richard Lord

Originally Posted by Phil Harris:

Just wanted to say guys that it's been fun skimming through this - would love to play "Warmer / Colder" with you on the discussion but I'm afraid that none of us would be allowed...

...all I'll say on the matter is I look forward to reading this thread after the Bristol show.

Phil

Am I glad I am booked into the Grand for the Show. Can't wait to see what you will be revealing to us.

Posted on: 13 February 2012 by AMA

Originally Posted by Phil Harris:

would love to play "Warmer / Colder" with you on the discussion but I'm afraid that none of us would be allowed...

The next day I get NDS in Dubai I shall fan hysteria around ND555 -- no vacations, I promise!

Posted on: 13 February 2012 by Bart

Originally Posted by Zinger:

Not sure how many other companies do it ... But the idea of having the original manufacturer servicing/reconditioning/recapping old gear is very attractive to me

Rolex and other watch companies have been doing it forever and it definitely helps maintain the value of their older pieces.