New NDS Streamer

Hook, yes I see now, it's still the monochrome display.... However it's clear it's till a prototype so we might still changes withthem buss lines. I guess changing out the DIN/RCA relays at this time would be too much of a change. 

It looks like it uses the DAC chip as thier other digital devices including ndac and CD555 and uses a  discrete current  to voltage regulator I believe the same as the ndac, but different from ndx. The DSP filter looks likely to be the same as ndac, as the same 5 lines of DSP assember code are referred to. Now what is interesting is the mechanical damping which is clearly different over the ndac, and the optical i2s decoupling between DAC and DSP. I can't remember seeing that mentioned before on any other Naim digital product.  But it looks like Naim have gone to town (apart from buss lines) on RFI decoupling, and to me that is showing a  positive maturing engineering approach to high quality digital/ computer audio design

Simon

Agree re Simon. Really goes out of his way to help. Can't make 1/3 though. Maybe 2/3

So am I 

RR

Look, doesn't someone here need to inject some perspective.....almost £7k for a streamer and it needs a power supply..................and please if anyone says can be upgraded by the dac.................a £7k product needs upgrading by a external £2k dac.........oh dear.

I also think a trick has been missed here with no preamp function.

Let's hope we don't have to go down the nDac as well route. A five box streamer, maybe a little more than I can take .

Also, thinking about it, isn't the dual 555PS config normally reserved for the 555 range, so does that mean no ND555? I doubt it somehow.... Thoughts lovely people of the Naim Forum...

Kind regards

Jo

I don't think that anyone here has said that the NDS "needs upgrading by an external £2k DAC" (or even that the NDS is intended to be upgraded by an external £2k DAC) - it's rather a sweeping statement to make given that no-one outside Naim (other that the journalists the other day) have heard it. Who has said (that has actually heard the unit) that the Naim DAC would even be an upgrade for the NDS? Have you considered that the NDS may actually sound better than the Naim DAC? Perhaps pop along to the show and see what you think?

The NDS *MAY* have an S/PDIF out which can be used to take an output to an external device - that may or may not be an external DAC however that would be for the user to make a choice as to whether to use it or not and if so, what to use it for.

The NDS is a source component in the same way that a CDS3 or a CD555 (or a Linn Klimax) is a source component - it is not intended to be an "all in one" product.

To add preamp functionality would compromise the core purpose of the unit unacceptably (if kept at the same price point) or make the unit unacceptably expensive - and would also have then meant that it then duplicated functionality (most probably to an inferior degree) for customers with existing high end preamps & power amps (252s / 552s / 300s / 500s) who simply want the best quality source component that they can get.

Cheers

Phil

Jo,

I think a clue may be found on the plasma screen behind Gary Crocker; "The Brief: To design Naim's reference network player".

Looking at what has gone into this, I think that the internal DAC might exceed even the Naim DAC.  Certainly the mass loaded suspension, like that found in the CD555, should bring real benefits over the stand-alone DAC. The proof will be in the listening, as always...

Sorry Phil you seem a bit touchy about that! I only said please no one suggest.... I did not say anymore! You then go on to say it *May* have a spdif output and this could be used to an external DAC!! Quite amusing really! I take it final specs not complete then?

I think £7k for a streamer without a power supply is already unacceptably expensive, let alone one without a preamp function, but hey some can and will want this beastie and to them it will be value for money, I dont sit in that camp!

Hi Guys,

I'm all for discussion here but let me throw in a question...

I don't understand why being flexible on power supplies is such an issue? Maybe you're simply assuming that in having the Klimax DS (which has no further upgrade path at this time) then you're just comfortable in knowing that it's as good as it can be for now? 

Remember that Linn upgraded the performance of the Klimax with their "Dynamik" power supply and that seemed to be quite easily accepted. If they were to subsequently offer a better power supply than the Dynamik (and I have no reason to doubt that they could do - you can always build a better power supply, just at what cost) for - say - another £5,000 then what should they do? (Perhaps it would be called the "Orgazmik"?)

Should they say that you can then only use the Klimax with this new power supply or should they say that you can use the unit with the Dynamik now and upgrade to the Orgazmik if you want to? Remember that the "Dynamik" is an upgrade option for older Klimax's so it's the same situation for them...

The NDS has *NO* internal power supply - it can be powered from several different power supplies and on each it will attain a certain level of performance. (In the same way that the Naim DAC can be powered from several different power supplies.) This gives the end user the flexibility to do what is most appropriate for them ... for example I have an NDX / DAC and XPS at home, I could trade in my NDX and DAC for an NDS (if I felt that was the best solution) and power it from the XPS that I already have.

If at a later date I auditioned a 555PS and decided that it was an appropriate upgrade then I have the option to do it if I want to - I don't have to though but the option is there.

Phil

Thanks Richard,

Just the answer I wanted . Right! now to the business of saving for an NDS...

Kind regards

Jo

Originally Posted by Focalist:

Sorry Phil you seem a bit touchy about that! I only said please no one suggest.... I did not say anymore! 

 

Hi, no, not "touchy" at all but just trying to keep a little reality in this discussion - almost no-one outside of Naim has heard the NDS *YET*.

 

Compare this thread with the one from 18 months ago when the NDX was launched and it's exactly the same - and I tried to keep that one based in reality (as much as possible) at the time too.

 

 

Originally Posted by Focalist:

You then go on to say it *May* have a spdif output and this could be used to an external DAC!! Quite amusing really! I take it final specs not complete then?

 

Sorry if I wasn't clear - I'm trying to keep the speculation to a minimum without giving away information that hasn't been publicly announced (and the connection roster on the NDS is still "under wraps" at this time) however my exact words were:

 

"The NDS *MAY* have an S/PDIF out which can be used to take an output to an external device - that may or may not be an external DAC however that would be for the user to make a choice as to whether to use it or not and if so, what to use it for."

 

My use of the word "may" was intended in the same way that I might say "The sun *MAY* be shining on Saturday and if it is then I may or may not go to the beach."

 

 

Originally Posted by Focalist:

You are absolutely correct that it is not a "cheap" product at £6.5k but many of our customers already have power supplies that they could use (I have an XPS on my DAC at home) so therefore that doesn't have to be bought again if I decided to "trade up" from my NDX / DAC to an NDS.

Cheers

Phil

Hi Phil

From the point of view of the Naim ethic which is to bolt on an external and pretty expensive PS your post is quite reasonable. I am not suggesting that this doesn't work and as a former owner of a CDS3/555PS know how good the PS is. This is one way to 'skin a cat' so to speak, but there are others which have their merits.

In reality the Linn Dynamik upgrade was made readily available at a far smaller cost than a 555PS to all  DS players in their range as a dealer fit option inside the existing player. Interestingly there has been a lot of raving about the Dynamik and it's abilities when powering the Urika Phono stage hereabouts, so it certainly does the business it seems.

Recently Linn introduced the KDS/1 as a replacement for the KDS/0 with attendant improvements in performance. That did not require owners of the KDS/0 to scream, tear their hair out and try to sell off their KDS/0 to step up to the KDS/1. Linn was creative offering to take the KDS/0 electronics out of the machined Aluminium case, fit it into a low cost but perfectly adequate pressed steel case and ship it back to the customer along with a set of KDS/1 electronics in their original machined box at a very reasonable price much lower than the full purchase price of the KDS/1. Result two very high performance streamers if required for less than the full price of one new one.

Maybe Linn won't be able to proceed like this in the future but it is nice to know that they evolve their products so creatively.

Of course this is all a matter of stance and perception. I wish Naim well with the NDS/555PS which I guess should be considered the competitor for a KDS/1.It will be interesting to read genuine comparisons when this becomes possible.

regards

Geoff

And so do I.

RR

This is the most exciting new product Naim has launched in much time!

The NDS seems to combine innovation and tradition to make it a really top performer.

IMO the digital out would be a great bonus, regardless an eventually DAC upgrade you can use it for integrating the NDS into AV systems or for recording digital audio.

I love the PSU options!, Naim has designed the NDS in order to take the maximum advantage of the current PSU range, thus the twin burndy sockets, a nice 500 series touch!

My ideal NDS would also have an asynch USB for computer audio, a DAC capable of receiving DSD streaming and fancier software and remote control applications.

I wonder which ways R&D could take for a possible future 500 series streamer?

maybe a 4 box design? : streamer + external DAC + external clock + new PSU....

To follow up on Geoff's comments when I upgraded my Radikal with a Dynamik the cost was $700-the same as the cost if someone wanted to upgrade a Klimax. No additional shelf required. 

Connon

In reference to my US pricing comments and whether I will try a NDS in my system (yes you are correct I do have a 555PS which was running my CD555) - you are a dealer in a rather affluent US area - how many 555PS's have you sold?  It has been posted here that basically zero 555PS's have come into the US for several years. I am sorry however $9350 (current US price) for a transformer in a metal case is starting to push the limits (imho). I know what a $700 upgrade did to my Radikal - I know what a $9350 upgrade can do to a Naim CD player (I have owned many).   The vfm is rather different for both companies proposals.

PS I have a feeling we are not finished as there still "MAY" be a replacement external DAC which will be able to upgrade the NDS (to go along with that second 555PS)  Then there is the question of the "ND555".....

Regardless of my comments above I do wish Naim success with the NDS. I do own a 552/300 which I would never part with!

A few more lines here about the listening impressions.

And I didn't notice before but there are some diagrams of the powering of the unit in the WhatHifi blog post.

Funny all these talks about a ND555. Considering that it took 15 years to Naim to come with their ultimate-no-compromise CD player, and that streaming is a relatively new technology (in Naim time at least), I would not hold my breath on this one. I think the NDS is the 500-series streamer. We'll see tomorrow on the web site !

Would like very much to see the post you refer to Gregg!  I bought my 555PS about 15 months ago...

I am not going to repeat all of my oft-stated comments on Naim's modular upgrade strategy.  Suffice it to say once again that I am very grateful to Naim, for had I not been able to build my system in manageable steps, I would not be the proud owner of the the setup I have today.

I wish nothing but good music to all who have made Linn (and other non-Naim) source decisions.   It is none of my business what anyone else does with their money.   But, I do strongly feel that some the criticism I've read here of Naim's strategy is very misleading.

To Focalist, who wrote:  "...I think £7k for a streamer without a power supply is already unacceptably expensive, let alone one without a preamp function, but hey some can and will want this beastie and to them it will be value for money, I dont sit in that camp!"   My reply would again be that it is your money and you get to spend it however you wish, but...Are you really implying that Naim doesn't have the right to compete with Linn and DCS and all of the other mega-bucks network player...players?  Really?  Who knows, maybe someday Naim will make the digital preamp you desire.   But in the meantime, why let your frustration spill over into this completely unwarranted criticism of their efforts to compete in a legitimate segment of the high-end market place?   That makes no sense to me.

Second, to Geoff:   I thought it was very classy of you to wish Naim well in their attempts to compete with Linn, and I am glad that RR and Gregg decided to follow your lead on this.   I can only hope that we all "keep it real" as the NDS comes out, and we get a chance to compare it to the KDS/1 and the other competitive offerings.   If, as Gregg implies, it will take two 555PS's for the NDS to better a KDS/1, then I agree completely that he has made a smart purchase!  If it turns out that the NDS and a single 555PS significantly betters the KDS/1, then well, perhaps not.  I do think it will be a lot of fun for us all to learn together how they compare! 

As the only US citizen to buy a 555PS in the last several years , I have just a few further thoughts.  First, of course, I do hope that the NDS/555PS equals or betters the mighty KDS/1 because, as Phil describes, I am one of the the poster children for the NDX/DAC-to-NDS upgrade!    Second, just because we are focusing our attention here on the NDS to KDS/1 comparison, I do hope that everyone else doesn't completely ignore the NDS's other PS options!  I think it will be very interesting to hear how the NDS sounds with an XPS-2, or even with an XP5 XS!   Who knows, the NDS might be able to compete with the KDS/1 at a much lower price point!   Wouldn't that be something!  

I really hope that dealers who carry both Naim and Linn make it super easy for customers considering both options to do the comparison.  I, for one, can't wait to hear what people think!  Like Allen said, it would not be too surprising at this high level of playback for there to be no clear winners.  Maybe it will get down to voicing...we just don't know yet.   But what we do know is that we all win when there is competition.  Competition makes Naim and Linn and others produce better and better products, and what happens at the high-end eventually trickles down to more affordable levels of the product hierarchy.

And finally, doesn't everyone agree that I deserve some special recognition?  A prize, or a certificate signed by Paul or something, for being the only person in a population of 312 million to drop the $9350 on a 555PS? (Well, truth be told, it was part of an upgrade package deal, so I may have spent a few dollars less, but still, the thought of being the only one in the US makes me very proud and...well, slightly nauseous).      All joking aside, I could not care less if this is true.  The 555PS is one of my "kit for life" components.   I see it in the same way I see my 552PS:  a product that has kept its name for many years, but continues to get silently upgraded over time as Naim discovers new, better parts and improves their manufacturing processes.   That AVOptions exists here in the US (and is doing so well!) gives me confidence that, a decade from now, I will be able to refresh my 555PS with new, even better parts!  And the fact that the new NDS is going to be supplied by the good old 555PS, and doesn't require some new, incompatible PS, only goes to strengthen my belief in it!

Hook

Do we know who from Naim will be demoing the NDS tomorrow? Hope to make it to Bristol in the morning

Jason, Mark and Doug are all there (along with Steve Hopkins) so you should get a good demo ...

... I believe Paul Stephenson will also be around too.

Phil

Curious to know whether it is upgrade path from 1 x 555PS to 1 x 555PS + 1 x XPS (separate the analogue and digital inputs).

"Funny all these talks about a ND555, I think the NDS is the 500-series streamer."

I just don't think there will be a ND555

The NDS is THE Naim flagship streamer.

As for the CD player range, the offer was too large anyway

I was not being pejorative in any fashion.  I have been reading the threads closely ever since the nDAC was released and appreciated you have tried just about the entire digi range and giving us feedback.  I know you have been excited for this news.

You might not be when you demo the NDS/555 and realize it is better for less.  With more features to boot.