What use is UPnP?

Dear Simon,

I have never had iTunes crash in over two years. One automatic update went wrong, so I completely reloaded iTunes from scratch. It does nothing wrong in my experience. I wonder why people would want to use different types of file. In reality I have three types but iTunes handles them, so no problems. I have a few WAVs, 99 per cent ALAC, and about ten tracks of MP3 at a high quality rate. I would only use MP3 downloads where no new or second hand CD could be found of a specific recording I wanted ...

Hi-res has less than no interest for me, as I have no intention of obtaining the recordings I have again, and in many cases buying them for a third time considering how many of them I had on LPs before getting the CD issues ...

So far I have not encountered compelling evidence that hi-res makes nearly so much difference, compared to CD, as the difference between decent and less decent master recording quality! I do not believe that a hi-res edition of a rough recording will magically turn into a good one, and yet it seems to me that a good CD is as near to fine enough for me not to worry! I know perfection is not possible, because as far as I am aware, it is not possible to make a perfect microphone for a start, let alone a perfect amplifier or recording machine!

ATB from George

When you say uPnp, I'm assuming you're talking about streaming vs. using the optical out on a PC/Mac.

Advantage of uPnp: You don't need to have your PC in the same room as your music system. And it might have a more convenient user interface.

That's pretty much it.

For my living room, I prefer a upnp based solution.

For my study, where I have a PC, and it's on, when I'm in the study, a PC/DAC is the way to go.

On a different note: I got home a Nait5i-2 for a few weeks. Resold it quickly, since I much preferred my Rega Dac/Rega Brio-R combination in the study.

I almost did like it better than the NaitXS though.... So maybe I'll say Au Revoir to this forum. Maybe I'm just a rega guy after all. I'm waiting for the SuperUniti to break in at my dealers. If that doesn't work out, I'll probably go get a Rega Elicit, and wait for the rega dac at the saturn level.

No. It's a similar question to that being discussed in other threads. Whether to use iTunes or UPnP to stream.

Simon

Dear Mangomonkey,

If you have a nice quiet PC, could even be fanless, then where it is put is not a problem, and if it is small then it will not stick out visually.

As for user interface, I have yet to find anything as fine as iTunes set up as a list. Okay, I understand that not everyone wants a sort of modern card index for their music. I am glad to completely ignore the artwork side of things, though iTunes can do that, but I have it disabled.

I connect to the DAC directly with USB, and I wish the nDAC offered this facility. A good implementation of async USB on it would make it an aspirationmal piece of kit for me.

Dear Tog,

In an ideal world I'd have a dedicated Macmini as my computer for music, but for about a quarter of the price I have something that is functionally probably not less good by any significant margin. I don't hate Windows, because for me it works pretty well. I only dislike things that are unreliable, and, touch wood, I have not had any trouble so far with this new little PC. Not that was its fault anyway. I did have a piece of grit trap the ctrl key down, which cause a bit of constenation!

ATB from George 

I agree about iTunes being exceptionally stable.  But I did get a grey screen of death when I tried to connect my Qute to my MacBook Pro.  The one and only time it has ever had a hiccup. I now know not to attempt to connect My Qute to my Apple network. 

Like you, George, I have my computer in my room and in my case on the top shelf of my Fraim.  I accept my hearing is not the best, but even up close I cannot hear a sound from it.  

I also strongly agree that the musical quality of the recording is absolutely paramount, not its technical quality. I have a few bits of hi res Mozart, but it does not cut it for me. I find myself returning to more humble recordings with an electrifying musical experience. 

But I can understand why many do not relish the idea of having a computer in their listening room.  

Richard

Dear Richard,

The Nait continues to cover itself in glory! It has found a busy life, though not a stressful one!

When I move to a new flat, I hope that you will visit me again under less time constrained conditions. I have learned how to make the ESL57s really fine, and the new room will be very suitable.

My question over UPnP concerned the fairly frequent reports here of connectivity issues, and a miriad of other problems, which simply do not happen when using iTunes, driven from the front - the computer.

For what I can tell the sonics are not in question, but rather not having a computer or hard drive in the room with the replay set, but I reckon that if the hardware things are carefully chosen for quiet running, then the issue of whiring hard drives or computer fans is not significant.

Best wishes from George

Hi George,

What I like about NOT having a PC in the living room is that I now just listen to music, I started almost using music as an accompaniment to my browsing!

In terms of SQ the movement from a dedicated Laptop to a NS01 was not that great, but the laptop was so stripped down, including no networking, to get the best SQ I could, that I found it a pain. The NS01, with its web interface on my TV, is great.

I do NOT use upnp for music, as the NS01 uses smb for connecting to the remote share & store that I use. However, I do use upnp for making Videos, photos and MP3s available around the house, both onto our TVs, via DLNA BluRay players, XBMC equipped laptops, and other software. This works very reliably and enables us all to share a single point of storage.

Doesn't mean there hasn't been any issues, but tell me ANY IT system that is faultless.

I think that upnp is great - whether you need the services it can provide is a personal preference.

As to whether the mode of transport over a network effects SQ? I'm just not going to go there, I'll class it along with reviewing my Network switches, or moving from cat5 to cat6, as something that other people can worry about.

...wonder if I move from Ethernet to token ring, ...or to thicknet ....or - that way there be dragons!

Hope all's well - hope the move is welcome news?

M

Dear M,

I very much hope that the new house will have decent VHF reception so that I re-commission the Troughline!

It is too dusty here just now to use a component with slots in the top ... 

Fortunately the new landlord is very reasonable, so I may be able to have a good aerial fixed up. The room will be ideal for the ESLs, as there is banister going to the cellar, so there can be plenty of space behind them without taking too much of the useful space in the room itself. The room itself is quite small, but you can be close to ESLs and they still work beautifully.

Hopefully, I'll manage to get a little laptop for other computer functions apart from music, and then this little machine can serve purely as a music box!

ATB from George

I agree with the PC part. But what about the monitor and keyboard? Unless you're running the pc headless like several people are doing here. From listening to you, that's not your intention though.

george,

you KNOW i love you.  But what is the point of your post.  You clearly have no interest in changing your set-up, which is fine.  Why the passive aggressive post?

nothing but the best,

patrick

and mouse.....

Digressing slightly for a moment, whether using a network or a PC connected directly to the hi-fi (as in George's case), do people normally leave the PC running all day when at home? Or do people just boot up when they want to listen and then shut down? Presumably leaving a PC running all day will shorten the life-span of some components quite significantly. On the other hand, booting up every time one wants to listen to some music does seem to be a pain.

Not having ever lived with this arrangement I am curious to learn of people's experiences.

Peter

Peter - although I use a NAS and Mac mini for UPnP duties, they dont stay powered all day. Both units run on a schedule to start up before I get home in an evening and the power off around. 11:30pm.  At the weekend I just manualy start them when I want to listen and then they power off again by themselves at the end of the day as normal. Saves power and is less wasteful than having them powered during the day when I'm not around to use them.

James

I've always been told by the technical support specialists I work with that it is quite the opposite, and that you can judge the lifetime of any electronic component (be it PC, TV, audio, or what have you) by the number of on/off cycles it goes through.  Better to leave things powered up...so long as they have some level of energy management.  For example, turning a modern flat panel TV "off" simply puts it into a "low power" state.   PC's are getting much better at this as well, since people have started shopping for more "green" desktops and laptops.

All computer manufacturers, including the one I work for, are trying to make enterprise-level systems more green by building in energy management circuitry that, for example, monitors demand and throttles down a CPU when it is not being heavily used.   This has a cascading effect.  By controlling CPU power usage, you not only reduce the draw of servers and storage, but also the amount of cooling required (and, therefore, the draw of air conditioners and air handlers that also place load on the electrical grid).

IT organizations are under extreme pressure to reduce operating costs.  This is driving amazing advances in data center design.  It has become a whole new IT discipline.  Hopefully, there will soon be a lot more trickle down effects from this into our home environments (going way beyond just fluorescent light bulbs...and class D amplification).

Hook

Peter, You can leave iTunes open, and it takes at most twenty seconds to wake anything running Windows 7 or Lion from sleep.

UPnP is very useful as it lets you get music from your Vortexbox in to a Naim streamer. 

The NDS uses UPnP and is the best streamer I have heard. 

Yes there are other ways to do things

What use is e-mail when you can send somebody a text message? 

What use is a PC when you can buy a Mac?

What use is a valve when you can use a transitor?

What use are Electrostatics when you can use paper? 

Well, it is horses for courses (as long as the fences are not too big). 

All can give very fine results in the right hands

Hmm ... bit lost here, as Apple user what does re-boot mean?

Is that some special feature in Windows? 

Dear George 

I don't think putting a USB interface for a Mac/PC on the Naim DAC is a good idea as to engineer this to the level of quality required would put the price up considerably. BAD who also make fine DACs has brought out another box to accommodate USB; my thoughts are as Naim and BAD makes products of commensurate quality, Naim would have to charge around the same premium of £1,000. A small DAC like the Chordette Gem has USB and it works very well, but it is not at the level of a Naim DAC; Chord does make a DAC with USB that does compete at this level, but it costs more than the Naim DAC. 

However, you can get an excellent lead like the Halide Bridge which as USB at one end and S/PDIF at the other or you can use the latest M2Tech hiFace at far less than £1.000 - so lots of options for anybody wishing to use USB and a Naim DAC without extra boxes or clutter. 

Also the NDS does not need S/PDIF or USB to give a fine sound, it use UPnP. Also by fully using the capabilities of the 555PS and having its own superb DAC there are no redundant components. 

I guess it is a trade-off between versatility and having bits you don't need.

I'd like to Airplay on the NDS, but for others there is no point. 

When it comes to technology, a standard will emerge and have lots of shortcomings, but its saving grace is it is a standard and so is easy to adopt (TCP/IP the technology of the Internet is a case in point).

All the best, Guy 

Dear All!

To nail a few points. Dear Patrick, the point of this was only to question the nigh universal recommendation of UPnP as a starting point for computer [Apple or PC] audio. It is not intended as aggressively anti UPnP, but rather to make those thinking about starting out on the computer audio/streaming path think about what they are looking for and how it can be implemented in more than one way. Certainly my experience of direct connection of a computer [could also be a MAC under different circumstances] to a dac and then to the normal replay seems to show that it can be done very nicely even at a fairly minimal cost. Depending on the circumstances it may even be the best way for some people. I am not advocating it as a universal recommendation!

Dear Mangmonkey,

Mouse, keyboard and, monitor screen ... I have the normal bog-standard priced things [though I use a track-ball mouse], and a 19 inch widescreen monitor. Okay I agree that these are hardly beautiful, but the screen is crucial in accessing the music and is often turned off when listening. I also use it for watching DVDs and youtube streams. In time I would like to get a bigger monitor for watching films better. It is no more ugly than a flat screen TV.

Dear Peter, and Hook,

I turn the PC off. If that shortens its life, well it is not my first PC, and no doubt it will not be my last. The longest lived managed about ten years from new with me, though a few second hand machines had quite short lives with me. The current one is from new, and I am hoping it will live tobe old, like my first one.

Dear Cheif,

Certainly it takes s few seconds for everything to come awake after turning on, but not so long as the valves in the Leak Troughline tuner that I have. Not really a problem for me at least.

Dear Guido,

Your point is well made. But economics do have a part to play. Would it be better for me to spend eighteen months saving up for a MAC Mini with no music replay from my recordings? Or crack on and get a less expensive PC to use much sooner, before my old [13 years old, but not new to me] PC finally expired?

ATB from George

Dear Guy,

Halide have also brought out a DAC that combines the quality of the older "bridge," which converts USB to SPIDF but adding full DAC capability. This is something that I want to investigate. An audition is nigh impossiible, but there is a solution. They are offered with a 30 day money back satisfaction return policy, so that if after a fortnight one found it was no good one can return it [obviously carefully repacked etc.] and obtain a full refund.

This has another advantage as it reduces the box count by one as well, as the halide DAC is mounted in a very small ally case in the length of the cable, with Async USB as the input, and line level analogue as the output to the amplifiers.

Neat idea, which if it works would suit me well.

ATB from George

Dear DQ,

Even a Rolls Royce can break down, so to speak, and running budget priced machinery probably leaves me with a greater risk over time. I did have an iTunes update [promted but then adopted by me] corrupt, and it cost me the time of a complete new iTunes download, but not reloading the music folder, fortunately. But I do have a back-up extenal drive here so that eventuality should not be ruinous. You should have heard the swearing!

At least I can rebuild iTunes if it goes wrong, and as my last resort I do also have a little CD player which could be wheeled back into action. I would never part with the original CDs, as the back up of last resort.

I accept that nothing in replay of music is to be relied on as completely reliable!

And hard disks are still hard disks even if they are in a NAS. Anything can eventually fail.

ATB from George

Fascinating views/experiences from everyone.

I must admit that I'm drawn towards the direct connection of a computer to hi-fi via a DAC as being far preferable to a network solution. The network arrangement seems to me to be over-complex and a lot more involved, though I can see that to some people and in some circumstances it does provide very necessary facilities. But the idea of, in effect, making the hi-fi an integral part of a much bigger and more involved set-up just feels wrong to me. I would rather keep music replay discreet, seperate and very simple. In fact a one-box system if possible, which is what I have now, though it is so humble that I many here have second systems that are far superior!

I have been experimenting with high bitrate MP3 files on a USB stick. My little Denon unfortunately will not recognise lossless formats on USB drives. The music to me is as good as a CD through this set-up, and the increased convenience factor over having to constantly change CD's every time I want to listen to a track from another album makes it very attactive. I can say that CD replay for me is really rapidly approaching an end.

Peter