Beginners Advice Please!
Posted by: Woods Scot on 28 December 2010
This is a long one, but I feel some back story is needed as well...
.....I spend the greater part of my days in the Hifi corner, but over the past few months have found my interest also in Distibuted Audio.
After considerable reading, I am looking at getting either an nDac or NDX. But frankly I am torn between which I should pursue.
My Hifi is currently composed of a 282/SC/CDs3/250.2/kudos c20's. I currently have a benchmark usb dac running (connected to airport express, from my network on my mac mini); but find it(sound) a little "thin", hense the decision to move towards a naim product.
So, the dilemma is that, currently, I have all the makings for a streamed system, so I am not sure it is worth the additional investment for the NDX, when I think I should be able to work with the equipment I already have.
What I do want is to gradually move from cd (atleast for more recreational listening) and still maintain a musical quality that can match or rival the one I can achieve with the boxes i have not.
All opinions would be greatly appreciated, along with recommendations with potential set-ups as well. I have little experience in this area and look forward to my move to distributed audio.
Thanks,
Scot
.....I spend the greater part of my days in the Hifi corner, but over the past few months have found my interest also in Distibuted Audio.
After considerable reading, I am looking at getting either an nDac or NDX. But frankly I am torn between which I should pursue.
My Hifi is currently composed of a 282/SC/CDs3/250.2/kudos c20's. I currently have a benchmark usb dac running (connected to airport express, from my network on my mac mini); but find it(sound) a little "thin", hense the decision to move towards a naim product.
So, the dilemma is that, currently, I have all the makings for a streamed system, so I am not sure it is worth the additional investment for the NDX, when I think I should be able to work with the equipment I already have.
What I do want is to gradually move from cd (atleast for more recreational listening) and still maintain a musical quality that can match or rival the one I can achieve with the boxes i have not.
All opinions would be greatly appreciated, along with recommendations with potential set-ups as well. I have little experience in this area and look forward to my move to distributed audio.
Thanks,
Scot
Posted on: 28 December 2010 by Tog
Simple - nDac - this will give you the flexibility to use either a computer mac/pc or an iPod or move directly to a streamed solution.
Since you have a pile of Naim kit already this gives you time to experiment - the nDac is a great bit of kit.
Tog
Since you have a pile of Naim kit already this gives you time to experiment - the nDac is a great bit of kit.
Tog
Posted on: 28 December 2010 by Woods Scot
Thanks Tog
I'd love to hear from others as well.
Scot
I'd love to hear from others as well.
Scot
Posted on: 28 December 2010 by Manu
Scot,
Wait for a NDX to reach Toronto in a few weeks. You will experiment by yourself.
Wait for a NDX to reach Toronto in a few weeks. You will experiment by yourself.
Posted on: 28 December 2010 by likesmusic
So Tog, what makes you suppose that an Airport Express driving an nDAC would sound better than an NDX? 
Posted on: 28 December 2010 by Jack
Scot,
I hear good things about the Benchmark DAC (is hat the HDR)....it does seem like you have most of the components already to get very good SQ.
How do you connect between the AirPort Express and the DAC?
I'm assuming you are using iTunes? Have you tried PM or Amarra?
Have you tried the Mac Mini into the DAC by-passing the other connections?
Jack
I hear good things about the Benchmark DAC (is hat the HDR)....it does seem like you have most of the components already to get very good SQ.
How do you connect between the AirPort Express and the DAC?
I'm assuming you are using iTunes? Have you tried PM or Amarra?
Have you tried the Mac Mini into the DAC by-passing the other connections?
Jack
Posted on: 28 December 2010 by Tog
@likesmusic, if you look carefully the key word in my post was "flexibility" - an nDac would work with any future scenario - including an NDX - which is ... unless you know something I don't, not yet an established (or available) product with any reviews ... the nDac would be a no brainer in this situation.
It would also open up the opportunity as Jack points out to try other things ... there is more to life than the mythical NDX.
Tog
It would also open up the opportunity as Jack points out to try other things ... there is more to life than the mythical NDX.
Tog
Posted on: 28 December 2010 by likesmusic
Why would you want a crummy Airport Express with it's attendant crummy SMPS in the signal path to the nDAC? No hi-res either.
The NDX offers all the flexibility of the nDAC with the additional ability to be streamed to directly, and no ingnominy of cheapo Airports.
Can't see that an nDAC would work with 'any future scenario' either. Eg something as good as the nDAC with streaming built in, which must surely be on the cards.
But then which sounds better!?
The NDX offers all the flexibility of the nDAC with the additional ability to be streamed to directly, and no ingnominy of cheapo Airports.
Can't see that an nDAC would work with 'any future scenario' either. Eg something as good as the nDAC with streaming built in, which must surely be on the cards.
But then which sounds better!?
Posted on: 28 December 2010 by scotman1973
quote:Originally posted by Manu:
Scot,
Wait for a NDX to reach Toronto in a few weeks. You will experiment by yourself.
I don't suppose it will be available for a
Home demo of any sort? I would love to get some more information from you if you get a chance. I am (as the post states) Looking for the best fit for me and my needs
Both now and in the future.
Scot
Posted on: 28 December 2010 by Tog
quote:Originally posted by likesmusic:
Why would you want a crummy Airport Express with it's attendant crummy SMPS in the signal path to the nDAC? No hi-res either.
The NDX offers all the flexibility of the nDAC with the additional ability to be streamed to directly, and no ingnominy of cheapo Airports.
Can't see that an nDAC would work with 'any future scenario' either. Eg something as good as the nDAC with streaming built in, which must surely be on the cards.
But then which sounds better!?
Erm .... Last I heard the NDX is being advertised as upgradable using the nDac ... When it is available that is ...
Have you had a bad experience with an Airport Express .. something you would like to talk about ....?
The stream from an AE is far from perfect but tied to a good Dac it's really not bad at all. Even better output a MBP via a Halide Bridge or a Wavelength Brick Dac or an nDac - neither of which could be described as crummy.
Tog
Posted on: 28 December 2010 by realhifi
Scot,
You have very good hifi components that must match very well and have taken some thought and effort to assemble. With the preamp and amplifier combination you have it must have taken some auditioning effort and time to know that you wanted to move up Naim's ladder of improvements. A supercap
is the big leagues is what I'm trying to say. No amount of arm twisting or flowerful prose will tell you what you want to hear...that you should definately get "........". Sorry to say but you're going to have to suffer (yeah right) through listening to the options you are describing.
On the other hand....my gut tells me you are going to be one of those that hears what a nServe and NDX can do and be smitten. I'm not saying it is the only option but by looking at what you have assembled I am guessing you will end up settling for nothing less. You will have, in one fell swoop, given yourself to Naim's streaming and digital philosophy much as you have by having a Supercap enter your system and letting it find a home there.
With that set I would be surprised if your listening to those two boxes was limited to "recreational listening" as you have put it. Good listening and good luck in your new quest!
You have very good hifi components that must match very well and have taken some thought and effort to assemble. With the preamp and amplifier combination you have it must have taken some auditioning effort and time to know that you wanted to move up Naim's ladder of improvements. A supercap
is the big leagues is what I'm trying to say. No amount of arm twisting or flowerful prose will tell you what you want to hear...that you should definately get "........". Sorry to say but you're going to have to suffer (yeah right) through listening to the options you are describing.
On the other hand....my gut tells me you are going to be one of those that hears what a nServe and NDX can do and be smitten. I'm not saying it is the only option but by looking at what you have assembled I am guessing you will end up settling for nothing less. You will have, in one fell swoop, given yourself to Naim's streaming and digital philosophy much as you have by having a Supercap enter your system and letting it find a home there.
With that set I would be surprised if your listening to those two boxes was limited to "recreational listening" as you have put it. Good listening and good luck in your new quest!
Posted on: 28 December 2010 by realhifi
quote:The stream from an AE is far from perfect but tied to a good Dac it's really not bad at all.
*s* I mean really. Not bad at all. Nothing like damning with faint praise! The little AE is indeed not bad at all and is a gift from Apple to the music loving folks everywhere. But....is it the end all to end all? I don't think so. I happen to dig a MBP myself but I know it's just not quiiite there. I love how I can stream Pandora on it and have super simple acces, etc, etc. But...it just isn't like listening to a very good cd player for me.
If Naim thinks they have an option that can sound as good or better than a CDX2 then I am all ears. The NDX may just turn out to be that. I say we let the dust settle and let the NDX see the light of day before we dismiss it as an also ran. Lastly, as far as the "upgrade" option presented with a digital out; maybe just maybe it's more for the future. Maybe it's really for the next Dac. Maybe it's for the reference Dac? Total speculation on my part but if you think about it, it makes total sense. NDX that controls preamps, reference dac in same size box, nServe lording over all and ripping your cd collection, opening your complete network up to your hifi. I like it.
Posted on: 28 December 2010 by winkyincanada
quote:Originally posted by Tog:
The stream from an AE is far from perfect but tied to a good Dac it's really not bad at all..
Tog
Yep. Perfectly listenable. My issue with the AE was really with stability and dropouts (my microwave gave it hell), rather than SQ. I have switched to a Mini toslinked to my SuperNait DAC. Will try an external USB/SPDIF unit soon.
Posted on: 28 December 2010 by Manu
Our first listening with a pre-production NDX indicates the built-in DAC is quite close to the NDAC. adding an external power supply to the NDX is much better than adding the NDAC. Yes the NDX is that good and it is not the final unit we have... So I tend to agree with Realhifi, the NDX's digital output is for use with a ref DAC, if one comes, one day...
The NDX will probably sound better than AE + NDAC as the SPDIF\optical is always a bottleneck. IMO, it is more a matter of technologies involved than products themselves. My own experiments with HDX and N-serve show the NDX plays better music from UPnP steaming than from digital coax.
The NDX will probably sound better than AE + NDAC as the SPDIF\optical is always a bottleneck. IMO, it is more a matter of technologies involved than products themselves. My own experiments with HDX and N-serve show the NDX plays better music from UPnP steaming than from digital coax.
Posted on: 28 December 2010 by Cal
quote:Originally posted by realhifi:
On the other hand....my gut tells me you are going to be one of those that hears what a nServe and NDX can do and be smitten. I'm not saying it is the only option but by looking at what you have assembled I am guessing you will end up settling for nothing less. You will have, in one fell swoop, given yourself to Naim's streaming and digital philosophy much as you have by having a Supercap enter your system and letting it find a home there.
With that set I would be surprised if your listening to those two boxes was limited to "recreational listening" as you have put it. Good listening and good luck in your new quest!
realhifi,
I'm not clear on why you would recommend the UnitiServe plus NDX, rather than the UnitiServe plus nDAC. Other than internet radio, what does the NDX give you (in the context of the OPs system) that the nDAC doesn't? The $1600 difference is pretty significant (for some of us). Thanks.
Posted on: 28 December 2010 by Manu
Cal,
My post hints about the diferences.
My post hints about the diferences.
Posted on: 28 December 2010 by Cal
Thanks, Manu. Lets see if I can get the hint here! The Serve plus NDX sounds better than the Serve plus nDAC? Am I close?
Posted on: 28 December 2010 by Manu
IMO, yes.
Posted on: 28 December 2010 by scotman1973
quote:Originally posted by Manu:
IMO, yes.
Manu. Could you email me, as I have some questions
And Would like to know more about the possibility of an
NDX demo when it arrives in Toronto.
sawoodscooks@gmail.com
Thanks
Posted on: 28 December 2010 by likesmusic
@Tog .... so if an AE driving an nDAC sounds as good as an NDX, what's the point of the NDX? (Apart from costing you £1000 more).
@Manu .. so if an NDX probably sounds better than a nDAC because 's/pdif optical is always a bottleneck' (your quote), does that mean the buffering in the nDAC is a failure?
@Manu .. so if an NDX probably sounds better than a nDAC because 's/pdif optical is always a bottleneck' (your quote), does that mean the buffering in the nDAC is a failure?
Posted on: 29 December 2010 by Tog
@realhifi / likesmusic
At the risk of repetition - my original post was about flexibility - the nDac provides a wide range of future options for someone who has invested a lot of money in Naim gear and is experimenting with digital.
The NDX may be brilliant but it presupposes you have chosen streaming as your preferred option. The nDac leaves your options open..
Or (heaven forbid) you could choose one of the many fabulous alternative non Naim transport/ dacs out there.
Tog
At the risk of repetition - my original post was about flexibility - the nDac provides a wide range of future options for someone who has invested a lot of money in Naim gear and is experimenting with digital.
The NDX may be brilliant but it presupposes you have chosen streaming as your preferred option. The nDac leaves your options open..
Or (heaven forbid) you could choose one of the many fabulous alternative non Naim transport/ dacs out there.
Tog
Posted on: 29 December 2010 by realhifi
quote:@realhifi / likesmusic
At the risk of repetition - my original post was about flexibility - the nDac provides a wide range of future options for someone who has invested a lot of money in Naim gear and is experimenting with digital.
The NDX may be brilliant but it presupposes you have chosen streaming as your preferred option. The nDac leaves your options open..
Or (heaven forbid) you could choose one of the many fabulous alternative non Naim transport/ dacs out there.
Tog
Posts: 354 | Location: Down in the woods | Registered: Mon 06 September 2010
Not enough inputs on the NDX? It certainly can take as many power supply options as the nDac. As far as flexibility I happen to think it is MORE flexible. Once on a network you can not only control your whole music library but you now have control of your whole hifi (volume, input, radio station, etc.) with something along the lines of an iTouch or iPad. I actually think this piece may be one of the slicker pieces I've seen come out of Naim in some time. Unfortunately...it's not inexpensive.
But I do also see your point if you think of the NDX out of the context of a complete Naim system (but why would you!! *s*).
Posted on: 29 December 2010 by realhifi
quote:realhifi,
I'm not clear on why you would recommend the UnitiServe plus NDX, rather than the UnitiServe plus nDAC. Other than internet radio, what does the NDX give you (in the context of the OPs system) that the nDAC doesn't? The $1600 difference is pretty significant (for some of us). Thanks.
In looking at his system let's recap what he is trying to accomplish. He has a Mac Mini, AE and a Benchmark Dac. Where do you think the performance bottleneck is? He also suggests he would like to keep some of his new digital pieces. I'm thinking that you simply replace the Dac and the AE with the NDX and use the Mac Mini as your Upnp server until (and if) he wants to move all in
with an nServe at some point down the road. I'm betting that is the best in sound and best in usability out of the options he was
contemplating.
PS. it also gives him the option of controlling his 282 if he ever wants to dip his toe into the iTouch waters. Don't forget the
NDX is on the network (wirelessly if need be).