New Naim NDX

Posted by: Nigel 66 on 02 September 2010

A new high end streamer is launched.

Have tried to add a link but if it doesn't work (which it probably won't given my IT skills !)it's in the News section on the What Hi Fi website.

http://www.whathifi.com/News/N...NDX-due-in-November/

Posted on: 07 September 2010 by nkrgovic

This has been lurking, but no one has said it clearly - if we are to compare two systems:

NDX -> DC1 -> DAC + 555PS
HDX -> DC1 -> DAC + 555PS

The one with HDX should be the same for up to 24/96, and would also offer 24/192, right? The NDX is a source for those who want to use the HDX music in an another room, or who want to stream from the network, but it's not in any way a better source than HDX (ignoring the FM)?

Posted on: 07 September 2010 by Hook

quote:
Originally posted by goldfinch:
Considering the price difference and the official statement that the nDAC will be an upgrade for the NDX, IMO the nDAC becomes now more attractive than before. Extra network facilities and radio are nice but my guess is the extra cost will be paid only for those people who don't want to mess with hifaces, pci audio cards and computers in general.

Hi Goldfinch -

I'd say you pretty much summed it all up correctly.

Seems like Naim is currently offering two paths. The first is a component-based DIY path with the Naim DAC as your digital hub. Attach a cd player, a PC, or anything else on Patrick's list and it all sounds great. Add a PS upgrade and, well, other than spending KDS money, am not sure that better digital sound quality can be had.

The second path is the all-Naim solution: HDX, UnitiServe+NDX, etc. Lots of different flexible components that can be combined to deliver everything one needs to enjoy digital music. In this world, the Naim DAC simply becomes an upgrade.

I do understand why some are disappointed that Naim has not built the perfect companion piece for the Naim DAC. But after all the very long threads discussing transports for the Naim DAC, I am still not clear what (if any) increase in sound quality a Naim-badged streamer would provide. If it doesn't sound better than my PC, then why would I buy a Naim component to simply duplicate the functionality I already have?

For Naim DAC owners who do want an all-Naim system, the closest thing I have heard to something that sounds "right" was Eloise's suggestion of a firmware modified UnitiQute that (following the examples of the CD5XS and CDX2) could become a pure streaming transport. I would buy one...if it sounded better than my PC.

Hook

Posted on: 07 September 2010 by Phil Harris

quote:
Originally posted by Klout10:
Hi Alistair,

Thank you for your quick reply. However, already owning an HDX, I don't get the point of the NDX ...

Regards,
Michel

...then you possibly haven't read my previous posts earlier in this thread.

The HDX and NDX are only similar in that they have music coming out of the back of them - in that way they are as similar to each other as they are to a CD player.

The HDX is a CD ripper and storage solution (if you have the SSD version of the HDX then it uses a network share for storage but it is still a ripper and storage solution). It provides the lookup functionality for ripped CDs, searching for music shared on a network and the incorporation of that into it's library, accurate ripping and playback and a UPnP *SERVER* for use with Uniti, UnitiQute and NDX.

The NDX provides DAB, FM and Internet Radio, playback and a UPnP *CLIENT* for playback of music from a UPnP server and it has multiple S/PDIF inputs to allow for the incorporation of additional digital audio feeds.

The functionality of the two is quite different.

Cheers

Phil

Posted on: 07 September 2010 by Phil Harris

quote:
Originally posted by glevethan:
So it sounds like those who purchased HDX's are seeing their more expensive units already usurped within a year(playback speaking). Not too comforting.

Probably an easier assumption to confirm / refute when there are units out in the field with dealers that people can listen to - remember that the NDX is still in R&D at the moment and is still being worked on.

Also the NDX is not in any way a *REPLACEMENT* for an HDX - the NDX cannot rip or store music, it cannot serve music via either UPnP or NaimNet.

Phil

Posted on: 07 September 2010 by Phil Harris

quote:
Originally posted by nap-ster:
I'm hoping for an NDX without the DAC section.

...unfortunately this would give a product which could not be used as a standalone source component and would *NEED* an external DAC to function.

The point of the NDX is that it can operate as a standalone source component and - if the owner wishes and feels that it justifies the additional outlay - can be upgraded with the XPS / 555PS power supplies or the DAC in exactly the same way that the HDX can be.

quote:
Originally posted by nap-ster:
I know there is the UnitiServe but I suspect the performance of the NDX as a streamer would be superior to it.

Please see my earlier posts regarding the functionality of the UnitiServe / HDX / NS0x units and the NDX - the two devices are not the same in any way other than they have music coming out of the spout on the back panel.

Cheers

Phil

Posted on: 07 September 2010 by nkrgovic

quote:
Originally posted by Phil Harris:
Please see my earlier posts regarding the functionality of the UnitiServe / HDX / NS0x units and the NDX - the two devices are not the same in any way other than they have music coming out of the spout on the back panel.

Phil,

Can you comment on the quality of the s/pdif stream out of the say HDX and NDX? If both were to be played trough a nDAC, would there be a difference? That is - is the NDX a superior streamer when compared to a HDX?

For the sake of argument, assume that the HDX is present on the network when playing from NDX.

Posted on: 07 September 2010 by Phil Harris

quote:
Originally posted by likesmusic:
Just add a upnp renderer/ethernet connectivity to the nDAC. Done, dusted, game over. What more would you want? No need for another streamer box whatsover.

I'm not sure whether you're being serious with that comment or not but there's a phenominal difference between a DAC which has multiple inputs and a similar device with a UPnP renderer and Ethernet connectivity added - that requires a completely separate level of logic and processing (and a UI too remember) ... there's certainly no "just add" about it I'm afraid.

Phil

Posted on: 07 September 2010 by Phil Harris

quote:
Originally posted by nkrgovic:
Phil,

Can you comment on the quality of the s/pdif stream out of the say HDX and NDX? If both were to be played trough a nDAC, would there be a difference? That is - is the NDX a superior streamer when compared to a HDX?

For the sake of argument, assume that the HDX is present on the network when playing from NDX.

No I can't - I haven't compared the two however I suspect that if I did then I would not be able to tell the difference between the two S/PDIF outputs.

Please do not take that as my saying that they are the same and that no-one would be able to tell a difference ... I am more than happy for someone to post on here and say that they hear differences between them - your ears are yours and mine are mine (and mine have been subjected to 154.7 db in their lifetime so are not pristine by any means).

When it is released as a product, go listen with your own ears and make a judgement depending on what you hear.

Phil

Posted on: 07 September 2010 by Paul Stephenson

Peter, sorry NDX will not be at the expo on Sunday,We are shipping Qutes so I would chase your retailer,enjoy the trip!

Posted on: 07 September 2010 by Phil Harris

quote:
Originally posted by AllenB:
As likesmusic, particularly, & goldfinch have alluded to, and I have said now on a few occasions:-
Add the streaming section to the nDAC, in a classic case and everyone's happy,

The likelyhood is though that you *WOULDN'T* be happy - "add the streaming section to the nDAC" might sound simple but involves a lot of additional functionality which you're then talking about throwing *INTO* a box with the DAC that is in it's own box specifically to reduce the amount of interference from other hardware - you'd be compromising the DAC by adding a load more functionality.

quote:
Originally posted by AllenB:
especially nDAC owners who could trade their stand- alone in, safe in the knowledge that they are not stepping down in SQ and still take up one shelf. What Naim are offering nDAC owners is a £3k unit just to get streaming (let's not forget the extra Fraim level, ohh yes and a DC1 cable to connect the NDX to the nDAC, so let's say tidily over £3.5k).

Now tell me which would have been the simpler?

I can and believe I have done but you don't believe me...

quote:
Originally posted by AllenB:
As I have also said, what's done is done, the NDX will go to Market a be a big success I am sure. Current nDAC owners remain in a quandary.

There should be no quandry for Naim DAC owners ... the standalone Naim DAC should be better than the DAC that is in the NDX. As a potential customer it is your choice in which combination you wish to assemble the various building blocks to make a system that does what you want and fits your budget.

Phil

Posted on: 07 September 2010 by goldfinch

quote:
Originally posted by Phil Harris:
quote:
Originally posted by AllenB:
As likesmusic, particularly, & goldfinch have alluded to, and I have said now on a few occasions:-
Add the streaming section to the nDAC, in a classic case and everyone's happy,

The likelyhood is though that you *WOULDN'T* be happy - "add the streaming section to the nDAC" might sound simple but involves a lot of additional functionality which you're then talking about throwing *INTO* a box with the DAC that is in it's own box specifically to reduce the amount of interference from other hardware - you'd be compromising the DAC by adding a load more functionality.

Phil

I can't discuss about how much the DAC section could be compromised by adding those streaming facilities but AFAIK the integration of a streamer and a DAC has the theoretical advantage of avoiding the jitter related with the interface (no spdif conversion) so maybe a future top distributed audio Naim system could be one box streamer plus DAC like the NDX (taking for granted that those compromises such as interferences are sorted out).
Besides a streamer device is not necessarily based in PC architecture with an operating system and the problems involved, they usually are simpler devices and thus they should be more easy (again in theory) to integrate with a DAC section.
Anyway I find more interesting and valuable the idea of having an excellent digital hub and a bundle of source options depending on my needs. Now I only miss a more simple and cheaper streamer.

Posted on: 07 September 2010 by pcstockton

quote:
So why is the nDAC suggested as an upgrade for the NDX?

Maybe for the same reason a Flatcap is an upgrade for my 102. It improves it. Whether or not it is worth the cash is up to each listener.

-Patrick

Posted on: 07 September 2010 by Peter_RN

quote:
Originally posted by Paul Stephenson:
Peter, sorry NDX will not be at the expo on Sunday,We are shipping Qutes so I would chase your retailer,enjoy the trip!

Hi Mr Stephenson, Oh well it was worth a try even if it was a bit cheeky. Will look forward to listening to it when ready. You are making a small mod to my Qute which will require tracking so I expect delay. We will enjoy what is on show I’m sure.

Peter

Posted on: 07 September 2010 by goldfinch

quote:
Originally posted by ghook2020:
quote:
Originally posted by goldfinch:
Considering the price difference and the official statement that the nDAC will be an upgrade for the NDX, IMO the nDAC becomes now more attractive than before. Extra network facilities and radio are nice but my guess is the extra cost will be paid only for those people who don't want to mess with hifaces, pci audio cards and computers in general.

Hi Goldfinch -

I'd say you pretty much summed it all up correctly.

Seems like Naim is currently offering two paths. The first is a component-based DIY path with the Naim DAC as your digital hub. Attach a cd player, a PC, or anything else on Patrick's list and it all sounds great. Add a PS upgrade and, well, other than spending KDS money, am not sure that better digital sound quality can be had.

The second path is the all-Naim solution: HDX, UnitiServe+NDX, etc. Lots of different flexible components that can be combined to deliver everything one needs to enjoy digital music. In this world, the Naim DAC simply becomes an upgrade.

I do understand why some are disappointed that Naim has not built the perfect companion piece for the Naim DAC. But after all the very long threads discussing transports for the Naim DAC, I am still not clear what (if any) increase in sound quality a Naim-badged streamer would provide. If it doesn't sound better than my PC, then why would I buy a Naim component to simply duplicate the functionality I already have?

For Naim DAC owners who do want an all-Naim system, the closest thing I have heard to something that sounds "right" was Eloise's suggestion of a firmware modified UnitiQute that (following the examples of the CD5XS and CDX2) could become a pure streaming transport. I would buy one...if it sounded better than my PC.

Hook

Hi Ghook, I would also like to test my PC setup against any of the new Naim streamers-servers alternatives, but it is hard to pay so much money for duplicated functionalities!

Posted on: 07 September 2010 by pcstockton

quote:
I can and do all these functions with a MacMini currently and to a high quality level too, but I do want the equivalent from Naim in terms of box count

Mac Mini + DAC = 2 boxes
UniServe + DAC = 2 boxes

What gives?

You dont need an NDX. I dont need a Superline. They are for other people.

-Patrick

Posted on: 07 September 2010 by goldfinch

quote:
Originally posted by Gordon McGlade:
quote:
Originally posted by goldfinch:
Considering the price difference and the official statement that the nDAC will be an upgrade for the NDX, IMO the nDAC becomes now more attractive than before. Extra network facilities and radio are nice but my guess is the extra cost will be paid only for those people who don't want to mess with hifaces, pci audio cards and computers in general.

Hola Jose

You are spot on! DAC owners will, for sure, have the solution they want in time but as we know, the DAC is the best step for you and many others right now who have computer music and can get into the DAC.

Un saludo

Gordon

Hi Gordon,
I can wait until that solution comes, I am sure the DAC deserves it!

Posted on: 07 September 2010 by pcstockton

quote:
I do understand why some are disappointed that Naim has not built the perfect companion piece for the Naim DAC.

What am i missing? How is the UniServe not the perfect DAC partner?

How is this not the Streamer everyone wants?

-Patrick

Posted on: 07 September 2010 by Plinko

quote:
Originally posted by ghook2020:
For Naim DAC owners who do want an all-Naim system, the closest thing I have heard to something that sounds "right" was Eloise's suggestion of a firmware modified UnitiQute that (following the examples of the CD5XS and CDX2) could become a pure streaming transport. I would buy one...if it sounded better than my PC.

Hook

I would buy one also...to use with the Naim DAC !! From Patrick's list, I would negate the Uniqute as a streamer into the DAC because why would one want to run the signal through two attenuators (assuming Unitqute used as pure streamer)? The rest of the products on Patrick's list are irrelevant because we're discussing Naim offerings here. It was always plenty obvious that one could tether any device (that contains the right output) to the Naim DAC and make music.

Posted on: 07 September 2010 by likesmusic

Why would you be compromising the DAC adding ethernet/upnp streaming functionality?

As it stands there's a ring buffer filling and emptying with data to be managed, s/pdif conversion, clock selection, two big processors in any case, stuff for the Apple linking (that no-one much seems to use), usb ports. How come they don't compromise the DAC? Given that there's already memory for the buffer and a processor or two in the nDAC adding a upnp renderer and ethernet capability can hardly be difficult - my wifes new phone will render upnp, my £100 blu-ray player will, WD sell a tiny box that does it, my ipod Touch does, Naims entry level products do .. even Linn Products can do it. Three and a half grands worth of NDX to deliver paltry quantities of data to an nDAC is just ludicrous.

Posted on: 07 September 2010 by pcstockton

quote:
Ohhh come on Phil, isn't that exactly what has been done with the NDX anyways?

yes.... which is why the DAC section is compromised as compared to the Naim DAC.

Posted on: 07 September 2010 by ferenc

quote:
Originally posted by AllenB:
quote:
Originally posted by Phil Harris:
quote:
Originally posted by AllenB:
As likesmusic, particularly, & goldfinch have alluded to, and I have said now on a few occasions:-
Add the streaming section to the nDAC, in a classic case and everyone's happy,

The likelyhood is though that you *WOULDN'T* be happy - "add the streaming section to the nDAC" might sound simple but involves a lot of additional functionality which you're then talking about throwing *INTO* a box with the DAC that is in it's own box specifically to reduce the amount of interference from other hardware - you'd be compromising the DAC by adding a load more functionality.

quote:
Originally posted by AllenB:
especially nDAC owners who could trade their stand- alone in, safe in the knowledge that they are not stepping down in SQ and still take up one shelf. What Naim are offering nDAC owners is a £3k unit just to get streaming (let's not forget the extra Fraim level, ohh yes and a DC1 cable to connect the NDX to the nDAC, so let's say tidily over £3.5k).

Now tell me which would have been the simpler?

I can and believe I have done but you don't believe me...

quote:
Originally posted by AllenB:
As I have also said, what's done is done, the NDX will go to Market a be a big success I am sure. Current nDAC owners remain in a quandary.

There should be no quandry for Naim DAC owners ... the standalone Naim DAC should be better than the DAC that is in the NDX. As a potential customer it is your choice in which combination you wish to assemble the various building blocks to make a system that does what you want and fits your budget.

Phil

Ohhh come on Phil, isn't that exactly what has been done with the NDX anyways?

If the nDAC needs a little more care to protect it's performance you design an isolated 'quiet room' section within the outer box.

And goldfinch's point about not having to deal with an SPDIF connection is a great one.

So sorry Phil, I still don't buy that it's not relatively simple for you Naim boffins.

Are you joking?

It is getting a bit too much patience to read how do you think you know what Naim should have to do. Do you really think if it was that easy and would make sense businesswise Naim would not do it?

Posted on: 07 September 2010 by ferenc

quote:
Originally posted by likesmusic:
Why would you be compromising the DAC adding ethernet/upnp streaming functionality?

As it stands there's a ring buffer filling and emptying with data to be managed, s/pdif conversion, clock selection, two big processors in any case, stuff for the Apple linking (that no-one much seems to use), usb ports. How come they don't compromise the DAC? Given that there's already memory for the buffer and a processor or two in the nDAC adding a upnp renderer and ethernet capability can hardly be difficult - my wifes new phone will render upnp, my £100 blu-ray player will, WD sell a tiny box that does it, my ipod Touch does, Naims entry level products do .. even Linn Products can do it. Three and a half grands worth of NDX to deliver paltry quantities of data to an nDAC is just ludicrous.

If you want to do it on the same quality as the WD TV does handling the network traffic and UPnP renering, it can be as easy as you think. But if you want something definitely high-end it is not that easy.

Posted on: 07 September 2010 by js

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Just ask me!

Posted on: 07 September 2010 by goldfinch

Why not debating freely the advantages/disadvantages in integrating a streamer and a DAC?, specially now we have Phil replying our questions (well done Naim). Naim might be interested in knowing which kind of product some of us would be interested in and besides now we can be illustrated with some technical details.

Posted on: 07 September 2010 by likesmusic

quote:
Originally posted by ferenc:

If you want to do it on the same quality as the WD TV does handling the network traffic and UPnP renering, it can be as easy as you think. But if you want something definitely high-end it is not that easy.

Why?

How can the concept of high-end apply to moving digital data around a network? Either it gets there or it doesn't. Doesn't matter whether the ethernet cable is gold plated supported on diamonds and anointed by the man from Mars; it's just data. A download travels half-way round the world, through cables, fibre, microwaves and satellites and makes it perfectly - nothing 'high-end' there. You are trying to argue there is something high-end about arithmetic; as though spending millions on a Kray computer will give a better answer to "2+2" than a one dollar calculator. It just won't!

And, whether it is 'easy' or not, Naim have done it in many other products in any case; they just have to take the upnp/network stuff from any of their other products which have it, and pop it inside the nDAC. Then me and I suspect quite a few others will get their credit cards out.

It just occured to me that s/pdif is very nearly an obsolete interface - at least in the context of 'high-end', whatever that is. What on earth should it be needed for?