New Naim NDX

quote:

Originally posted by Geoff P:
There is nothing wrong with offering improvements especially in an efficient and fair way. Naim just keeps adding boxes. For example XPS owners are encouraged to go out and buy a 555PS because it is better. No internal upgrade offered there but rather another box that costs close to 7000 Euros, which is more than the equipement it is powering in a lot of cases. I know which I think is a better approach, 700 Euros looks like a good deal to me..

Hi Geoff,

There are a couple of good reasons why there isn't a straight "swap parts" upgrade for an XPS to a 555PS and that's that the only common components between an XPS and a 555PS are the mains inlet socket and one of the Burndy connectors on the back panel, even the chassis, sleeve and front panel are different.

If someone buys a 555PS after having an XPS then they can sell on the XPS complete and working if they want to...

Phil

Phil

Sorry for knocking the Naim PS upgrades. It was a specific example as a response to the discussion here. I am actually a long time user of the 500 series and the CDS3 and in that context will be the first to extoll the virtues of the 555PS.

I know there are different views amongst designers on PS implementation. It is an evolving thing. The early switchmode PS circuits were UGLY but as with all thing lessons are learned and they are seriously better now. I assume in the tightly packed environments of the likes of the SuperNait and the NVi Naim developed simlar PS solutions.

The traditional 500 boxes are stuffed to the roof with discrete components, which is part of the reason for their performance I am sure, but I assume more surface mount and IC oriented circuitry is present in the DAC's which typically has a much smaller footprint so that internal PS circuits can have room to breath.

regards
Geoff

quote:

Originally posted by Geoff P:
Sorry for knocking the Naim PS upgrades. It was a specific example as a response to the discussion here. I am actually a long time user of the 500 series and the CDS3 and in that context will be the first to extoll the virtues of the 555PS.

No "knocking" presumed Geoff - just felt it appropriate to point out that there are almost no common parts between the two power supplies.

Phil

Knowing how much a power supply can improve every Naim component I do not care at all whether the NDX can be upgraded or not via XPS 2 or PS 555, I am rather interested how the NDX sounds with a normal PC/Mac as a UPnP server or with a more dedicated UPnP server such as the Unitiserve or HDX or via a USB drive, which can be hooked up according to the product page. I think that this is a very important point when it comes to value for money and I am sure that there will be difference with the different UPnP servers.

quote:

Originally posted by John R.:
Knowing how much a power supply can improve every Naim component I do not care at all whether the NDX can be upgraded or not via XPS 2 or PS 555, I am rather interested how the NDX sounds with a normal PC/Mac as a UPnP server or with a more dedicated UPnP server such as the Unitiserve or HDX or via a USB drive, which can be hooked up according to the product page. I think that this is a very important point when it comes to value for money and I am sure that there will be difference with the different UPnP servers.

if the same file is getting played from two different upnp servers, AND there is no transcoding of the file happening, you should not hear any difference because all the upnp server is doing is sending the file to your upnp client to play

it's like downloading a file from a web site..

-joe

I know that it should sound the very same, but I am almost sure that there will be a difference in sound quality. Hopefully the most expensive UPnP server is not the best sounding UPnP server By the way: This reminds me that different USB sticks sound different with the very same wav file copied to them when using the Naim DAC - and they should sound the same, but they do not sound the same for some strange reasons.

quote:

Well done mate, you now possess a few Naim brownie points. Collect enough of them and you may get a Naim T-shirt.

I wear a medium usually.

quote:

I have accepted the NDX and why it is what it is. I still think it could have been a slightly different animal and not have added too much to the build cost. As a result I will not be buying the NDX. I feel sure most nDAC owners feel the same, but we were never the target market for this unit. That has become crystal clear.

I agree with ALL of that.

I voiced dissatisfaction along your same lines when the HDX was released.

I was waiting for a standalone DAC and thought the HDX was Naim's interpretation. Especially given the price tag, it wasn't an option for me. With its redundant (for me) ripping, storage and touchscreen along with a horrible UI (as compared to other Media Players), I thought the HDX was a horrible idea..... until I heard one.

By the time I heard one, news of a real DAC had surfaced and I simply waited. I really considered a Lavry but my very smart dealer (Connon), told me to wait to see what Naim would offer. I am VERY happy I was patient.

Now that time has passed and more products in the "Distributed" realm are coming out, I do see the beauty of Naim's approach here.

Honestly (and obviously), as a DAC owner I am very pleased the DAC hasn't already been obsoleted with regards to sound quality. I like that the DAC is an upgrade to anything Naim offers with a digital output. I really like that I can upgrade my DAC with PSUs and whatnot without the need for selling it and buying a new box.

I still think the DAC should be the first purchase for neophytes with existing Naim kit. Then they can sort out by which method, Naim or otherwise, to get the 0s and 1s to the DAC. For those comfortable with a PC/Mac, nothing else may be needed, For others they can look into a Serve, HDX, Qute or NDX. All of which bring something unique to the party.

It is nice that Naim doesn't force you into one particular mold. And it isn't confusing if you really sit down and think about it.

The only perplexing thing for me at this point is how the Qute is only $2000. I will simply have to consider it a bargain and suggest it to friends starting from scratch. Then I may consider one for a second system down the road.

By the way, I am not trying to rile you nor single you out. Just having some fun, thats all. As we both own the DAC this is all a fairly moot point.

....and I am sure we would not be at each other throats if we had a pint together. Please consider me playfully bantering. thats all. Despite that i come across a little aggressively, I am a nice guy.... I swear.

Cheers,
Patrick

Patrick
I have to admit that some of your posts have wound me up in the past but I am 100% with you on everything you say there.
Although I suppose it would help everyone if Naim laid out some kind of product/feature map that cleared up the initial confusion that most of us felt.

quote:

Originally posted by Phil Harris:

There should be no quandry for Naim DAC owners ... the standalone Naim DAC should be better than the DAC that is in the NDX. As a potential customer it is your choice in which combination you wish to assemble the various building blocks to make a system that does what you want and fits your budget.

Phil

Phil, I can understand the nDAC sounding different, but should it be neccesarily better. When I chose the Naim path several years ago it was the sound that appealed - it was not HiFi - it felt organic and analogue so I chose my CDX2 and XPS over many many other CDPs at the time through home audition. What I have found with the nDAC is that to me its lost some of that Naim sound that I love with CDX2/XPS, in fact to me the nDAC sounds HiFi - its detailed and accurate but doesn't invite me in to the music. I have assumed its becasue the DAC is seperate from the source unlike the CDX2 and as such is losing something. Therefore I was thrilled to hear of the NDX and I am hoping it can capture that organic again - perhaps assocaited with source / DACs that are not limited by SPDIF interface such as the CDX2/XPS.

However your comment that we should be in no quandry that the nDAC should 'better' the NDX therefore saddens me - I have a had few recent auditions of the nDAC with XPS with different sources - including USB memory port and it isn't happening for me.

Will the NDX be voiced to be like the CDX2 to give that combined source/DAC soound that Naim so fantastically got right with the CDX2 and higher.

Alastair @ Signals told me he heard a pre production NDX at Naim Towers and it sounded 'impressive' on its own - and so fingers crossed.

Simon

Simon,

Until you actually hear the NDX for yourself (and at this stage I seriously doubt whether anyone outside Naim, Malcolm Steward and a handful of chosen dealers have), all this talk about whether the stand-alone DAC is better or otherwise than the NDX's internal DAC is purely conjecture, IMO.

For all we know, with regard to the actual NDX sound, we could be talking about a "whole is better than the sum of its parts" kind of situation, IYSWIM.

quote:

Originally posted by JonR:
Simon,

Until you actually hear the NDX for yourself (and at this stage I seriously doubt whether anyone outside Naim, Malcolm Steward and a handful of chosen dealers have), all this talk about whether the stand-alone DAC is better or otherwise than the NDX's internal DAC is purely conjecture, IMO.

For all we know, with regard to the actual NDX sound, we could be talking about a "whole is better than the sum of its parts" kind of situation, IYSWIM.

It is not at all conjecture. To quote from Malcolm Stewards article:

"this enables non-Naim DAC owners to connect their computers, STBs, and other digital sources – their CD player’s digital output, maybe – through a Naim DAC, as opposed to the, superior, Naim DAC.

The unit can be upgraded with the Naim DAC "

"Superior Naim DAC ... upgraded with the Naim DAC". His words.

Right or wrong?

Who cares? I have little time for naked fanboy-ism in the hifi press. Don't forget this is the same guy that reckoned he could tell the difference between computer data cables claiming they had an effect on the sound too...

All I'm suggesting is judge the NDX as a product on its own merits and worry about upgrade options later on.

quote:

Get a bunch of blow or meth.

quote:

I do see the beauty of Naim's approach here.

PC, sorry, I'm slow on the uptake but I do see where you are coming from now. I don't think I'll be joining you...

quote:

Originally posted by JonR:

All I'm suggesting is judge the NDX as a product on its own merits ...

Exactly - and I am hoping it captures that combined source / DAC sound again that I, and I suspect many other Naim followers, so fell in love with the CDX2/XPS and for some of us was lost with the nDAC.

quote:

Originally posted by Simon-in-Suffolk:

quote:

Originally posted by JonR:

All I'm suggesting is judge the NDX as a product on its own merits ...

Exactly - and I am hoping it captures that combined source / DAC sound again that I, and I suspect many other Naim followers, so fell in love with the CDX2/XPS and for some of us was lost with the nDAC.

Agreed - there is, is some system settings, something beguiling about the current CDX2 that makes the music flow in a more organic manner than a straight nDAC (again, in some settings, including non-Naim ones).

quote:

Originally posted by Simon-in-Suffolk:

quote:

Originally posted by Phil Harris:

There should be no quandry for Naim DAC owners ... the standalone Naim DAC should be better than the DAC that is in the NDX. As a potential customer it is your choice in which combination you wish to assemble the various building blocks to make a system that does what you want and fits your budget.

Phil

Phil, I can understand the nDAC sounding different, but should it be neccesarily better. When I chose the Naim path several years ago it was the sound that appealed - it was not HiFi - it felt organic and analogue so I chose my CDX2 and XPS over many many other CDPs at the time through home audition. What I have found with the nDAC is that to me its lost some of that Naim sound that I love with CDX2/XPS, in fact to me the nDAC sounds HiFi - its detailed and accurate but doesn't invite me in to the music. I have assumed its becasue the DAC is seperate from the source unlike the CDX2 and as such is losing something. Therefore I was thrilled to hear of the NDX and I am hoping it can capture that organic again - perhaps assocaited with source / DACs that are not limited by SPDIF interface such as the CDX2/XPS.

However your comment that we should be in no quandry that the nDAC should 'better' the NDX therefore saddens me - I have a had few recent auditions of the nDAC with XPS with different sources - including USB memory port and it isn't happening for me.

Will the NDX be voiced to be like the CDX2 to give that combined source/DAC soound that Naim so fantastically got right with the CDX2 and higher.

Alastair @ Signals told me he heard a pre production NDX at Naim Towers and it sounded 'impressive' on its own - and so fingers crossed.

Simon

I know exactly how you feel. The Akurate DS I am getting as a replacement for my CDS3/XPS still has an integrated "organic sound".

It will also deliver all the prat I desire through my 252/250/Allaes (which are going nowhere by the way).

RR

quote:

Originally posted by David Dever:

quote:

Originally posted by Simon-in-Suffolk:

quote:

Originally posted by JonR:

All I'm suggesting is judge the NDX as a product on its own merits ...

Exactly - and I am hoping it captures that combined source / DAC sound again that I, and I suspect many other Naim followers, so fell in love with the CDX2/XPS and for some of us was lost with the nDAC.

Agreed - there is, is some system settings, something beguiling about the current CDX2 that makes the music flow in a more organic manner than a straight nDAC (again, in some settings, including non-Naim ones).

Interesting that others are thinking this way, a year after all the DAC hype.
I heard a CD5XS with and without the DAC recently, and I swear the 5XS was doing stuff the DAC combo couldn't. Sense of acoustic space (too much unordered information from the DAC?) being one.
You pays yer money etc. After you've listened though....

quote:

in fact to me the nDAC sounds HiFi

Never understand what that means - I have the nDAC and the CDX2 and a 555PS - IMHO both the nDAC and the CDP sound superb.

Always find it strange how hi-fi reviewers write - how about a review that says

the solid state amplifiers sound powerful and musical and a long way from the dull, boring ponderous valvy sound. There is something magical when they are coupled with a highly musical digital source that analogue systems with their distortion and proneness to surface noise can never hope to match - by comparison analogue systems with tube amps sound very hi-fi where as digital players and transistor amps connect you with the emotion of the music.

Jon is 100% right to me when he days to go hear the NDX, judge it in its own right and make up your own mind if it is right for you. Me I'm sticking with my LP12 and MacnDAC into my Naim system and my CDX2 into my Stax valve ear-speakers.

I don't think the nDAC is hype it is stunning piece of kit. I'm less convinced about some of the other new digital pieces though, but others like the sound of Akurate DS so who am I to argue.

ATB Rotf

quote:

the solid state amplifiers sound powerful and musical and a long way from the dull, boring ponderous valvy sound. There is something magical when they are coupled with a highly musical digital source that analogue systems with their distortion and proneness to surface noise can never hope to match - by comparison analogue systems with tube amps sound very hi-fi where as digital players and transistor amps connect you with the emotion of the music.

LOL !!! Where did you get this bit?

quote:

Originally posted by ROTF:

quote:

in fact to me the nDAC sounds HiFi

Never understand what that means - I have the nDAC and the CDX2 and a 555PS - IMHO both the nDAC and the CDP sound superb.

Sorry I should have been clearer, I am probably using the term differnt to how other people use it which on reflection is not that helpful.. I don't read HiFi magazines and so can't comment on how its used there. When I say sounds 'Hifi' I am describing a sound where the frequency extremes are there in abdundance and the detail is there - but the overall presnetation does not sound natural or together. Ok I will not use the term 'HiFi' again as a shorthand [fx: slapped wrist]

Simon

quote:

Originally posted by ROTF:

quote:

in fact to me the nDAC sounds HiFi

Never understand what that means - I have the nDAC and the CDX2 and a 555PS - IMHO both the nDAC and the CDP sound superb.

I know exactly what Simon means.

The NDAC does all the hifi stuff like detail, soundstage, layering, separation, strong bass, drive etc.. Initially it sounds impressive.

But a decent CDP assembles the music - the timing, the tone, the volume mix, the whole structure - in a way where the the different parts of that structure harmonise, syncopate, inter-relate and flow together to create something that goes beyond a good accurate representation of the music. It's something more musical sounding, more natural, more involving and emotive. To me it's the difference between sitting there and nodding and looking impressed, and stying up all night putting CD on after CD, completely immersed, lost and drunk in a sea of music. In my book the CD555 is the absolute master at that and nothing gets close, even a CDS3/555ps is a long way off.

It's not an easy thing to explain and some people don't hear it at all and also some people actually prefer the more hifi sound because they count information, soundstage and other parameters as more important than this 'musicalness'. No one is wrong or right of course. You can only be right for yourself and what you personally expect from your kit.

quote:

Originally posted by rich2513:
It's not an easy thing to explain and some people don't hear it at all and also some people actually prefer the more hifi sound because they count information, soundstage and other parameters as more important than this 'musicalness'. No one is wrong or right of course. You can only be right for yourself and what you personally expect from your kit.

Interesting point. We are not all made the same way and we listen to things different ways - some of us more sensitive to either timing, rhythm, spatial awareness, texture, patterns, voices etc.

Therefore perhaps Naim ought to make two sounds, a natural organic sound - that we can hear with vinyl, many of Naim's combined CDPs and *good* FM, and an alternate more technical presentation for those that like their sound that way - that I have heard with the nDac and other non Naim combined CDPs.

- and therefore that is perhaps becoming the case now - as the nDAC is a bolt for a growing number of sources. We just don't want Naim to skimp on the quality of the combined DACs - that we love with the CDX2 and higher - and that is why Phil's comment earlier on in this thread that we should be in no quandary that the nDAC will improve the sound concerned me.

Simon

My perfect source, the one that Naim are never going to make and one that shouldn't be mentioned on this particular forum, is the CDX3 - a one box CD player with the transport and power supply of the 2 and the dac section 'based on' the DAC (as per NDX).

quote:

Originally posted by Simon-in-Suffolk:

quote:

Originally posted by rich2513:
It's not an easy thing to explain and some people don't hear it at all and also some people actually prefer the more hifi sound because they count information, soundstage and other parameters as more important than this 'musicalness'. No one is wrong or right of course. You can only be right for yourself and what you personally expect from your kit.

Interesting point. We are not all made the same way and we listen to things different ways - some of us more sensitive to either timing, rhythm, spatial awareness, texture, patterns, voices etc.

Therefore perhaps Naim ought to make two sounds, a natural organic sound - that we can hear with vinyl, many of Naim's combined CDPs and *good* FM, and an alternate more technical presentation for those that like their sound that way - that I have heard with the nDac and other non Naim combined CDPs.

- and therefore that is perhaps becoming the case now - as the nDAC is a bolt for a growing number of sources. We just don't want Naim to skimp on the quality of the combined DACs - that we love with the CDX2 and higher - and that is why Phil's comment earlier on in this thread that we should be in no quandary that the nDAC will improve the sound concerned me.

Simon

I think they are doing just that. Or at least with the nDAC they have.

Sonically it seems to be a very deliberate and planned maneuver into unchartered waters, to appeal to a wider audience and a wider range of non-salisbury partnering equipment. I don't think this is something gets talked about with much frequency but amongst my travels at certain dealers and with certain friends and acquantances who have grown up with Hifi from the early says of Kans, Nait1's and 32-5's I find people in strong agreement with the things we are saying here. Naim have every right to expand, to cover their increasing overheads and make as much profit as possible. New sonic ventures ever since the olive range seem to be helping them do this and I don't doubt that the nDAC is a fabulous thing for business.

It will be interesting to see if the sound of the NDX has been carefully engineered in a one box fashion like the CDS range. Early comments are promising.

Until then there is only one question that needs answering, can a Klimax DS tump the CD555 for enjoyment and involvement. I hope to find out very very soon.